stable vs bleeding edge

dice · 2021-01-19 15:39:09

I have some old hardware i use on a daily basis with devuan, lately ive found that if i use anything bleeding edge like archlinux, voidlinux, artixlinux, i will get complete lockups/freezes but using devuan stable, debian stable my old machine runs fine. I cant figure this out. I have been running the backported 5.9 kernel for a few days with no issues, yet if i run archlinux linux-lts or even in voidlinux the 4.19 kernel it will just lockup/freeze unable ssh or get a tty. Might be time to update but as long as devuan still works i dont see a reason too, im hoping when chimeara becomes stable i wont have these issues and can run the computer for another few years.

Last edited by dice (2021-01-19 15:40:58)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-01-19 16:21:59

Yeah, kernel regressions are unfortunately common in Linux. The developers are too busy cramming in new features so old hardware support can suffer. You should probably file a bug report with the kernel developers because they can't fix it if they don't know about it and you won't be able to keep using old kernels indefinitely.

https://xkcd.com/2224/

dice · 2021-01-20 03:09:11

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Yeah, kernel regressions are unfortunately common in Linux. The developers are too busy cramming in new features so old hardware support can suffer. You should probably file a bug report with the kernel developers because they can't fix it if they don't know about it and you won't be able to keep using old kernels indefinitely.
https://xkcd.com/2224/

True but id like to know how to debug it first. Ive tried seeing if i can catch dmesg output for when it freezes with dmeshg-wH but when it freezes nothing is caught in in dmesg or any error logs. What would you recommend doing?

Ogis1975 · 2021-01-20 14:43:13

dice wrote:

What would you recommend doing?

The kernel probably did log some information, but they never made it on time to the disk. If your laptop has got a serial port, set the kernel to use it as console (add console=ttyS[X] as boot option); you will see the messages there from another machine as it happens. If not, you can use an Ethernet port and try netconsole.

dice · 2021-01-20 16:33:00

Ogis1975 wrote:

dice wrote:
What would you recommend doing?
The kernel probably did log some information, but they never made it on time to the disk. If your laptop has got a serial port, set the kernel to use it as console (add console=ttyS[X] as boot option); you will see the messages there from another machine as it happens. If not, you can use an Ethernet port and try netconsole.

Good idea!

zapper · 2021-01-21 13:01:08

dice wrote:

I have some old hardware i use on a daily basis with devuan, lately ive found that if i use anything bleeding edge like archlinux, voidlinux, artixlinux, i will get complete lockups/freezes but using devuan stable, debian stable my old machine runs fine. I cant figure this out. I have been running the backported 5.9 kernel for a few days with no issues, yet if i run archlinux linux-lts or even in voidlinux the 4.19 kernel it will just lockup/freeze unable ssh or get a tty. Might be time to update but as long as devuan still works i dont see a reason too, im hoping when chimeara becomes stable i wont have these issues and can run the computer for another few years.

Small problem, voidlinux isn't bleeding edge, its rolling release with a focus on stability.

So I guess you could say its semi rolling release. I think? I haven't used it a whole lot, but, I also noticed that using musl's voidlinux is a little more buggy.

More importantly though, I also noticed that connman is the easiest interface to get started for voidlinux.

Depends also though how it is installed on your comp too though.

But yeah, Archlinux can be a mess. Dunno about Artixlinux though... probably similar though

Warning about void though, if your laptop doesn't need non-free crap, just forcibly remove it. I had no issues as long as it is a libreboot or coreboot + me cleaned device.
Otherwise, you very likely need to keep it.

A side note though, libreboot is being rebranded in the future...

Actually just a small edit, the first time I installed voidlinux which was sometime between 2014-2018 or something like that, there were small bugs if you wanted to use certain apps,

That's about it though. I have a feeling they improved it vastly since then.

Last edited by zapper (2021-01-21 13:03:08)

dice · 2021-01-21 14:01:20

zapper wrote:

dice wrote:
I have some old hardware i use on a daily basis with devuan, lately ive found that if i use anything bleeding edge like archlinux, voidlinux, artixlinux, i will get complete lockups/freezes but using devuan stable, debian stable my old machine runs fine. I cant figure this out. I have been running the backported 5.9 kernel for a few days with no issues, yet if i run archlinux linux-lts or even in voidlinux the 4.19 kernel it will just lockup/freeze unable ssh or get a tty. Might be time to update but as long as devuan still works i dont see a reason too, im hoping when chimeara becomes stable i wont have these issues and can run the computer for another few years.
Small problem, voidlinux isn't bleeding edge, its rolling release with a focus on stability.
So I guess you could say its semi rolling release. I think? I haven't used it a whole lot, but, I also noticed that using musl's voidlinux is a little more buggy.

Yeah it says stable rolling release, for me not so stable and this was not the musl variation but the glibc variation via netinstall (yes it can be done in voidlinux, similar to the arch way). I installed it the other day and no word of a lie the computer froze in the first 2 minutes. Basic xfce4 install. Im not about to complain to them though, the laptop i tested it on is ten years old. Anyhow i might be able to get my hands on a later model laptop from 2015/16, a lenovo x250 - i5, has a tiny screen though at 13.3 inches, im used to 15 inches on my toshiba sat.

Might be time to say goodbye to the toshiba, but i live in hope of making this thing work for 15 years, hopefully devuan can get me there

Edit: i have an even older dell laptop from around 2008 that is now happily buzzing away streaming some youtube at low res using slitaz linux, pretty sure it will last another 2 - 3 years with a battery upgrade.

Last edited by dice (2021-01-21 14:06:27)

zapper · 2021-01-22 06:43:53

dice wrote:

zapper wrote:
dice wrote:
I have some old hardware i use on a daily basis with devuan, lately ive found that if i use anything bleeding edge like archlinux, voidlinux, artixlinux, i will get complete lockups/freezes but using devuan stable, debian stable my old machine runs fine. I cant figure this out. I have been running the backported 5.9 kernel for a few days with no issues, yet if i run archlinux linux-lts or even in voidlinux the 4.19 kernel it will just lockup/freeze unable ssh or get a tty. Might be time to update but as long as devuan still works i dont see a reason too, im hoping when chimeara becomes stable i wont have these issues and can run the computer for another few years.
Small problem, voidlinux isn't bleeding edge, its rolling release with a focus on stability.
So I guess you could say its semi rolling release. I think? I haven't used it a whole lot, but, I also noticed that using musl's voidlinux is a little more buggy.
Yeah it says stable rolling release, for me not so stable and this was not the musl variation but the glibc variation via netinstall (yes it can be done in voidlinux, similar to the arch way). I installed it the other day and no word of a lie the computer froze in the first 2 minutes. Basic xfce4 install. Im not about to complain to them though, the laptop i tested it on is ten years old. Anyhow i might be able to get my hands on a later model laptop from 2015/16, a lenovo x250 - i5, has a tiny screen though at 13.3 inches, im used to 15 inches on my toshiba sat.
Might be time to say goodbye to the toshiba, but i live in hope of making this thing work for 15 years, hopefully devuan can get me there
Edit: i have an even older dell laptop from around 2008 that is now happily buzzing away streaming some youtube at low res using slitaz linux, pretty sure it will last another 2 - 3 years with a battery upgrade.

Why not get something you can have without the intel me or amd psp?

Such as a thinkpad x230 with coreboot and intel me neutered?

I have such a device, and it runs very fast. Like it can handle 3x the load of my thinkpad x200 at least and its maybe 4x faster.

Just my two cents regarding what you should get.

And in the later future you could wait for something more open source friendly such as mnt reform or that balthazar laptop from balthazar.space

That would have risc-v, so it might be 3 or more years away from happening. I bet a risc-v laptop that's 90% freedom friendly hardware with few backdoors, will be out by the time HyperbolaBSD is out.

Aka, 2024 or later.

My bad though, im getting off topic.

Ath9k + intel me neutered + coreboot or retroboot when that is out for the thinkpad x230, is a good fit. Your choice, but I myself enjoy it.

Till someone learns how to remove the intel me code on it completely, I will probably use it for light gaming.

F_Sauce · 2021-01-22 12:09:06

Beside the point all of this!

My former main-computer (day to day) was an Intel Q{xxx}, from 2007 (until 2019) I think?
I gave it away to my mum, but when I had it, it were constantly on; I think it is like that now as well; running all the time, without trouble (changed HD's of course).

My oldest OS is running on devices from 1999; SuSE 9.1. is installed now, I am a bit nostalgic.

Trouble with kernel, try to compile it yourself; it isn't too hard really; I started out with music as focus, building Linux DAWs; bit of a struggle, but got there in the end

andyprough · 2021-01-22 15:07:28

F_Sauce wrote:

My oldest OS is running on devices from 1999; SuSE 9.1. is installed now, I am a bit nostalgic.

What kind of hardware is running SuSE 9.1 for you? That was an all-time great OS, I did accounting work for several years on the SuSE 9.x series.

F_Sauce · 2021-01-22 23:04:42

Hei Andy, I'll check, back soon.

dice · 2021-01-23 15:38:14

F_Sauce wrote:

Hei Andy, I'll check, back soon.

Oh noes, F_Sauce might be caught in a time warp.

F_Sauce · 2021-01-25 21:27:02

dice wrote:

F_Sauce wrote:
Hei Andy, I'll check, back soon.
Oh noes, F_Sauce might be caught in a time warp.

I'm a bit nostalgic, used to play (occasional «now» as well) some old games on it.
CPU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_III, still running fine!
GPU: (PCI) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_FX_series.
Upgraded (spinning) hard-drives, but with 1999 original mother-board and RAM.

If you are very interested Andy, I will give you all the current hardware details; I booted it up last probably a year ago, no trouble I presume!

When I first installed Linux and SuSE 9.1 ... , it was newer hardware; it was a Dell from 2002/3 with a Pentium 4 CPU, I threw away Windows and started

Cheers,
Olav

F_Sauce · 2021-01-25 21:35:55

PS
All my current computers runs fine on Devuan!

Did not mean to have focus away from you're issue dice, sorry about that!

Last edited by F_Sauce (2021-01-25 21:43:35)

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#1 2021-01-19 15:39:09

stable vs bleeding edge

#2 2021-01-19 16:21:59

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#3 2021-01-20 03:09:11

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#4 2021-01-20 14:43:13

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#5 2021-01-20 16:33:00

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#6 2021-01-21 13:01:08

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#7 2021-01-21 14:01:20

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#8 2021-01-22 06:43:53

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#9 2021-01-22 12:09:06

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#10 2021-01-22 15:07:28

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#11 2021-01-22 23:04:42

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#12 2021-01-23 15:38:14

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#13 2021-01-25 21:27:02

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

#14 2021-01-25 21:35:55

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

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