Debian has fallen. What now?

yeti · 2019-12-28 14:44:13

Ok...
Topic lines need to be drastic...
...sometimes.

Fighting Debian windmills from now to eternity does not look like a bright future.

Should Devuan switch to a different foundation now?

There are some distributions with a less bureaucratic packaging system which could be easier managed by a smaller group of developers. Some of them are currently only available as rolling releases but plugging in there for chiselling a stable branch with only changing stuff between the releases if security issues demand it could be a way to go.

Are there other ideas how Devuan could/should react?

Brainstorm on!

Last edited by yeti (2019-12-28 14:49:17)

Dutch_Master · 2019-12-28 15:03:09

Currently, apt is the superior package management tool in Linux-land. Portage could become a close 2nd and maybe even take over that top spot, if (and only if) its Devs accept it'll have to make arbitrary decisions on which package to install. Currently, it bombs out with a cryptic 'slot conflict' which the user should fix, even if said user hasn't got a clue on how to do so. This was essentially the reason why I moved from Funtoo to Devuan a few years ago.

Having said that, IMO Devuan should not stray from its Debian roots. Not only because it has marketed itself as "systemd-free Debian" from the outset, but switching to a different base distro with a different package management will confuse regular and even power users, perhaps even alienate them. I guess one could come up with plenty more reasons to stick with 'the mother-ship', but the above ones are the core issues.

But then, I'm not a Devuan Dev, so what weight would this carry anyway

HevyDevy · 2019-12-28 15:10:52

what foundation would be possible for a fork of debian ?

devuanBSD? Go hyperbolic..

farmatito · 2019-12-28 15:38:40

Please stay with Debian to preserve the working work setups of many people like me.
Let's find some (new?) ways to reduce the work needed to maintain Devuan to a minimum.
In the long run sticking with the KISS principles will be successfull.
The KISS principles and software stratification in linux and thusly in debian is what allowed the adoption of systemd in the first place,
by breaking this principles debian and linux are entering a one way road that will make innovation impossible.
It will never be possible in the future to implement the next "systemd" as the tight vertical integration mandated by systemd
will not even permit to try it out.
To reduce the workload partnership with other non-systemd distros (even the rpm ones like e.g. PcLinuxOs) should be investigated
to avoid duplicated work.
Eventually reduce the distro to a Devuan Core (for servers, routers, firewalls, nas etc.) plus one supported DE (xfce?) to keep things going.

fsmithred · 2019-12-28 18:20:56

I don't forsee any immediate changes. Yesterday's vote leaves us in a slightly better position than before. There was no commitment at all to work with us. Now there is.

It wasn't my favorite proposal, but it's something we can work with. It could have been worse.

Proposal B
Choice 2: B: Systemd but we support exploring alternatives
Using its power under Constitution section 4.1 (5), the project issues the following statement describing our current position on Init systems, multiple init systems, and the use of systemd facilities. This statement describes the position of the project at the time it is adopted. That position may evolve as time passes without the need to resort to future general resolutions. The GR process remains available if the project needs a decision and cannot come to a consensus.
The Debian project recognizes that systemd service units are the preferred configuration for describing how to start a daemon/service. However, Debian remains an environment where developers and users can explore and develop alternate init systems and alternatives to systemd features. Those interested in exploring such alternatives need to provide the necessary development and packaging resources to do that work. Technologies such as elogind that facilitate exploring alternatives while running software that depends on some systemd interfaces remain important to Debian. It is important that the project support the efforts of developers working on such technologies where there is overlap between these technologies and the rest of the project, for example by reviewing patches and participating in discussions in a timely manner.
Packages should include service units or init scripts to start daemons and services. Packages may use any systemd facility at the package maintainer's discretion, provided that this is consistent with other Policy requirements and the normal expectation that packages shouldn't depend on experimental or unsupported (in Debian) features of other packages. Packages may include support for alternate init systems besides systemd and may include alternatives for any systemd-specific interfaces they use. Maintainers use their normal procedures for deciding which patches to include.
Debian is committed to working with derivatives that make different choices about init systems. As with all our interactions with downstreams, the relevant maintainers will work with the downstreams to figure out which changes it makes sense to fold into Debian and which changes remain purely in the derivative.

anticapitalista · 2019-12-28 19:12:07

However,

Packages may include support for alternate init systems besides systemd and may include alternatives for any systemd-specific interfaces they use

Let's hope that those packagers that do include support for alternate init systems besides systemd in buster will continue to do so.
We at antiX have found buster to be much better in terms of init-diversity than stretch was.

Camtaf · 2019-12-28 19:22:56

If regular software programs rely on parts of systemd, then the freedom that was Linux comes to an end!

Linux was fashioned after Unix principles, but has been deviated more towards a Microsoft kind of system, by the 'big players' so that they can make money out of selling maintenance contracts. If this continues, there will no longer be freedom to choose within Linux.

We need a branch of Linux that rejects completely the scourge of systemd. If that doesn't materialize, then the BSDs are sure to gain more followers.

Ron · 2019-12-28 20:00:30

yeti wrote:
Should Devuan switch to a different foundation now?

Why not be totally independent?

fsmithred wrote:
I don't forsee any immediate changes. Yesterday's vote leaves us in a slightly better position than before. There was no commitment at all to work with us. Now there is.
It wasn't my favorite proposal, but it's something we can work with. It could have been worse.

You're making the assumption that this option was put forth in good faith. I have a hard time believing that.

Altoid · 2019-12-29 13:52:44

Hello:

fsmithred wrote:

It could have been worse.

Indeed ...
But I fear that (eventually) it will get worse.
To me it's just a question of time.

Why?
Because not enough people are paying attention to what is going on.

I've clocked roughly 20+ years of MS software use, ~5 years as a regular -> advanced user, the rest as first -> second tier support and on-site hardware service when needed, all at the different places where I made a living and from home when out of a job.

So my background is not that of a coder/developer or packager but someone who started late but who has seen all this first hand as a privileged/advanced user, like many others here.

IMO, there is a striking parallel between systemd in Linux and the registry in Windows OSs.

Systemd in Linux brings back memories of my difficult transition from W3.11 to W95, with the end of the familiar and usually well documented *.ini files I understood (and could tweak when things went foul) to the obscure workings of *the registry*, which took me a few years to get a minimal hold of, basically through unending trial and error grief.

After a few years (W95 to XPSP3) I understood what it was all about: a developer sanctioned virus running inside the OS, constantly changing and going deeper and deeper into the OS with every iteration and as a result, progressively putting an end to the possibility of knowing/controlling what was going on inside your box/the OS as it became more and more obscure.

When systemd appeared in Debian (I was already running Ubuntu) and saw what and how it did it, I realised that systemd was nothing more than a registry class virus which was infecting the Linux ecosystem at the behest of the developers involved and the complicity or indifference of most of the others.

So I moved from Ubuntu to PCLinuxOS and then on to Devuan.

Paranoid?

No. Just strongly convinced that there are people both inside and outside IT that actually want this systemd takeover to happen and are quite willing to pay shitloads of money to push that agenda, Poettering being a prime suspect but surely not the only recipient.

I don't see this MS cozying up to / barging into Linux and areas of influence (GitHub acquisition, WSLinux (!), etc.) in various ways as a coincidence: these things do not happen just because or on a senior manager's whim.

What I do see (YMMV) is systemd being a sort of a putsch to generate a convergence Windows with or into Linux, which is not good for Linux and will be its undoing.

But there's really nothing new here: it's just the well known MSbrace at work.
It's been going on for more than 30 years.

And no, I don't have an answer to this problem.

But I do think that it would probably be a good thing that the awesome manpower behind all the Linux projects scattered out there team up to find common ground instead of everyone of them wanting to do their own thing while mindlessly waving the flag of choice, a flag which they are set to lose if they do not react fast enough.

The writing has been on the wall for a long time now.
And it's well past the time to heed the warning.

Of course, nothing but my $0.02 and as always, YMMV.

To all Dev1 members/guests: Have a Happy New Year 2020.

Cheers,

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2020-01-19 15:31:53)

Nili · 2019-12-29 16:37:19

I wish three elections to be considered by Devian senior management if one day a decision is made.

1) Switch to Slackware
2) BSD
3) Independent

Currently I'm already 80% BSD and 20% Linux well thanks to systemD that made me switch after 10 years on Linux mostly Debian or -based. My passing transition from Linux to BSD wasn't at all difficult than i thought.

I have always a ready system at any time for any startup Devuan will take. I am now practicing myself with new things mostly BSD.

Last edited by Nili (2019-12-29 16:38:20)

ToxicExMachina · 2019-12-30 05:15:58

yeti wrote:

Debian has fallen. What now?

Ha. Ha. Ha. What an amusing panic! Anyone who want to escape cowardly can go to Window$ now.

yeti wrote:

Fighting Debian windmills from now to eternity does not look like a bright future.
Should Devuan switch to a different foundation now?

Devuan is the true Debian. There is no point to destroy it.

yeti wrote:

Are there other ideas how Devuan could/should react?

The first link from the search results ("how to write sysv init scripts in linux"): https://www.linuxnix.com/write-sysvinit-scripts/

Debian community, welcome! There is no corporate bs in Devuan! There is also a great opportunity to become the real maintainer without being witchhunted by SJWs!

ToxicExMachina · 2019-12-30 05:21:02

HevyDevy wrote:

what foundation would be possible for a fork of debian ?
devuanBSD? Go hyperbolic..

It sound like "Oh no! They have killed sysvinit! Therefore we should go BSD-kernel-only and screw everything at all because I don't care it's irrelevant to the kernel!"

HevyDevy · 2019-12-30 13:11:21

ToxicExMachina wrote:

HevyDevy wrote:
what foundation would be possible for a fork of debian ?
devuanBSD? Go hyperbolic..
It sound like "Oh no! They have killed sysvinit! Therefore we should go BSD-kernel-only and screw everything at all because I don't care it's irrelevant to the kernel!"

Only time will tell, as i read on the debian forum, someone said debian is a slow moving ship. Ive already made the move to BSD's and know how they work, planning on getting hardware more suited to them but Devuan for the time being is still in number 1 position on my current hardware as it just works and works well.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2019-12-30 16:43:50

But the BSDs have an evil licence that allows corporations to steal the code and not feed back their improvements.

One of the reasons why Linux has been so successful is because companies are forced to make their development available to all.

GPL ftw!

yeti · 2019-12-30 16:56:02

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

But the BSDs have an evil licence that allows corporations to steal the code and not feed back their improvements.

If MS couldn't have used BSD's TCP stack for their 1st IP support, we'd have 2 only 82.783% compatible internets now.
Did that hurt BSD?
DFINITELY NOT!

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

One of the reasons why Linux has been so successful is because companies are forced to make their development available to all.

I heavily doubt this.

yeti · 2019-12-30 16:57:35

GPL ... HELP!!! Someone could use my code! Lets jail it for it's own security!
BSD ... Someone uses my code! YAYYYYYY! \o/

Head_on_a_Stick · 2019-12-30 17:06:09

Hmm, strange, I would have thought that users of a GNU/Linux distribution would be more supportive of the GPL.

yeti wrote:

I wrote:
One of the reasons why Linux has been so successful is because companies are forced to make their development available to all.
I heavily doubt this.

So why do you think Linux dominates the server market then? FreeBSD's networking stack performs better but it's not as popular.

jaromil · 2019-12-31 16:05:08

farmatito wrote:

Please stay with Debian to preserve the working work setups of many people like me.

This is certainly Devuan's path. We will stick to the plan: this is our promise and its proven to bring power and stability to all.

No surprises ahead.

ciao

ChuangTzu · 2020-01-01 00:35:27

jaromil wrote:

farmatito wrote:
Please stay with Debian to preserve the working work setups of many people like me.
This is certainly Devuan's path. We will stick to the plan: this is our promise and its proven to bring power and stability to all.
No surprises ahead.
ciao

Good to hear.

ChuangTzu · 2020-01-01 00:38:20

Decided to copy my post from Debian forum since it was referenced by someone here and may be of interest as well: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? … 0&start=30

Re: init diversity in Debian
Postby HuangLao » 2019-12-29 16:24
Well, I've been following this thread and a few others as a lurker and now feel "compelled" to write.
I find a lack of sincerity or perhaps a bit of hubris in the apparent alarm and surprise of the recent GR vote regarding systemd. We know from the prior vote that Debian decided to default to systemd and to follow what other distros had already done. This vote simply reinforces the first vote, however, it does not close the door on other init's, it merely says it will not be the primary focus of Debian as a project nor will it enforce that policy on the dev's. If a dev wants to support other init's they may, if someone wants to step up and do the work they can, they may accept patches to support alternatives and they are encouraged to discuss ideas rather then ignore or brush off etc... As fsmithred stated:
I don't forsee any immediate changes. Yesterday's vote leaves us in a slightly better position than before. There was no commitment at all to work with us. Now there is. It wasn't my favorite proposal, but it's something we can work with. It could have been worse.
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=19182#p19182
and anticapitalista:
Let's hope that those packagers that do include support for alternate init systems besides systemd in buster will continue to do so.
We at antiX have found buster to be much better in terms of init-diversity than stretch was.
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=19185#p19185
Keep in mind the historic nature of Debian, it is a very slow moving ship, no-one ever said it does not follow other trends it simply gets there at a much slower pace, and typically does leave room for slight alterations of course. Is that not what the recent vote concluded? Continue to move towards systemd as primary but remain open to alternatives.
Course forward if you base your distro on Debian or any systemd distro:
1) rebase on a non systemd distro, start the work now for your next release
2) continue basing on Debian and fork or rebuild any programs that require systemd, the source is out there.
3) block any programs that need to be rebuilt or cannot be rebuilt because they are too "tainted". Slackware stopped providing Gnome many years ago because it became an abomination to maintain.
4) become a Debian dev. so you not only can contribute to the upstream of your distro but also gain a vote/speaking voice in the direction of that ship, this is what many Ubuntu dev's did a few years ago and what Debian dev's did for Ubuntu prior to that.
5) unify the several small distros with a common goal around one common distro/mission....example, antiX, MX, Devuan could combine together either with some work or all
6) propose a systemd free repo for Debian similar to the nonfree and contrib repos, that is maintained by antiX, MX, Devuan etc.... Of course to make that proposal you would need to be a Debian dev...so it goes back to that.
Finally, stop overreacting, the sky is not falling, Linux is not dying, challenges like this come up every few years and it will in a few years again. When you have been around the game long enough, you stop reacting to the infighting. PV/Slackware is just now exploring adding Pam/Kerberos many years after it became default in every other distro. You do not need to rebase off Slackware to learn from it. I do not think (cannot speak for him) that PV would be interested in a merger, even though PV and Ian did ponder a merger early in Debian's history. It was actually Ian wanting to merge with Slackware. With that said SalixOS may have interest but you would want to speak with George (gapan) about that. Slapt-get has apt like functions and the Salix team tends to be more open to Debian and other distros (Arch etc...).

Camtaf · 2020-01-01 12:12:54

I've used Salix in preference to installing Slack, but I've been Debian & Debian based since 1999, I don't want to change, but I don't want to use systemd either, so I hope we can still have Debian without systemd well into the future.

ToxicExMachina · 2020-01-07 16:47:53

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

So why do you think Linux dominates the server market then? FreeBSD's networking stack performs better but it's not as popular.

Do you find your trolling very entertaining? By the way, you can go use Window$ right now - it has 100% BSD networking stack. Where is a big window$ share at the server field?

Head_on_a_Stick · 2020-01-07 17:05:15

ToxicExMachina wrote:

Do you find your trolling very entertaining?

Don't feed the trolls d00d. And please try to stay on topic

Altoid · 2020-01-19 15:31:25

Hello:

Altoid wrote:

Hello:
The writing has been on the wall for a long time now.
And it's well past the time to heed the warning.

Just to reinforce what I wrote previously / further illustrate just what is going on Linux/MS wise, I invite members to check out this YouTube chat from almost two years ago by a chap called Lunduke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVHcdgrqbHE

... and this other one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MflUrykPaY

I think they are worth watching.
Of course, YMMV.

Cheers (?),

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2020-01-19 15:56:22)

mckaygerhard · 2020-01-20 13:44:23

puff i remenber some years ago when i vaticine that! .. https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=6939#p6939 cited specific:

we must take in consideration the workload to manpowers in devuan, what happened when project grow so many more thant the amount of developer can support? will be good a little of cooperative help beetweent MANY and not litle distros

as was happened in "soilet green" novel.. future are now..

a good idea are join effors with trinity desktop.. but of course veterans bla bla will want to maintain minimalist and that's make sense..

i like the minimalist way that devuan are, works efficiently but still haves issues.. due lack of usage with diversity of users..

ah.. dont come "hat are you done to help" . due i have my points.. and i done a lot .. ok not only just make live isos puff

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#1 2019-12-28 14:44:13

Debian has fallen. What now?

#2 2019-12-28 15:03:09

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#3 2019-12-28 15:10:52

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#4 2019-12-28 15:38:40

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#5 2019-12-28 18:20:56

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#6 2019-12-28 19:12:07

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#7 2019-12-28 19:22:56

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#8 2019-12-28 20:00:30

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#9 2019-12-29 13:52:44

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#10 2019-12-29 16:37:19

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#11 2019-12-30 05:15:58

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#12 2019-12-30 05:21:02

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#13 2019-12-30 13:11:21

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#14 2019-12-30 16:43:50

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#15 2019-12-30 16:56:02

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#16 2019-12-30 16:57:35

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#17 2019-12-30 17:06:09

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#18 2019-12-31 16:05:08

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#19 2020-01-01 00:35:27

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#20 2020-01-01 00:38:20

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#21 2020-01-01 12:12:54

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#22 2020-01-07 16:47:53

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#23 2020-01-07 17:05:15

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#24 2020-01-19 15:31:25

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#25 2020-01-20 13:44:23

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

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