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#76 Re: Forum Feedback » Crossing the line or not? » 2018-01-29 00:04:13

Not at all, in messageboard terms "ban" or "suspension" is only a matter of terminology.  If you ban/suspend someone's account for a given period or permanently, you're censoring their ability to represent themselves.  The time span is irrelevant.

The membership are provided with a link to a text file, not the original thread in original form and the author cannot respond in thread, in semi-realtime.  It doesn't really help matters.

I have to say that I think you've slightly overreacted this time.

But also, I don't think fungus should hold it against you or turn this into such a, puerile, personal battle.  It's easy to push forum staff's buttons, there's no real reward or sense of achievement in getting yourself banned.

For the casual observer, it might be useful to have fungus' complaint summarised by an uninterested (third) party...  (aka "what the feck is actually going on here?").

#77 Re: Forum Feedback » Crossing the line or not? » 2018-01-28 23:27:38

You're being slightly 'diplomatic' there to say the least.

A ban can be permanent or for days/weeks/months/years - it's purely a matter of nomenclature...  a ban is a ban regardless of the term imposed, be it a day or a lifetime.  You can call it a "suspension" if you like.  In the same way that a permanent ban could be termed an "indefinite suspension".

#78 Re: Forum Feedback » Crossing the line or not? » 2018-01-28 22:02:42

I'm somewhat surprised that you've banned fungus.  I have to make it clear here that I strongly object to a ban based on what has been posted by this user.

Let us consider history, let us consider how systemd was shoehorned into Debian.  Opposing viewpoints were dismissed and ridiculed.  Crap software is now a part of the mainstream Linux ecosystem, that slightly perturbs me yes, but in the grand scheme of things, I can't do a much about it.  The Devuan project was begun as an opposition to that at least - because a minority know that a tried and trusted init system, that simplicity in general is the best way and always has been.

Spikey haired 20-somethings who have been bought and sold over and over by the Red Hats, IBMs, Oracles, Alphabets, HPs, Intels, etc of this world don't know better than the "founders" of free software as we know it.  The difference is that the founders knew exactly what they were doing, the latest batch have all the intelligence and more, but less than 50% of the wisdom.  Many of which are on the payroll of said corporations and thus pushing a purely corporate agenda.

If fungus is wrong, so be it, or misguided...?  People are often "wrong on the internet".  But lets not fall back into the rut of the petty censorship we saw at the FDN site...  That forum became as worthless as the Debian project always thought it to be.

If fungus is saying things you don't agree with, then what's the problem?  Let him get on with it.

Another worthless Linux distro fanboi forum is not going to provide much benefit to anyone.  There are a plethora of such forums.  Let a Devuan forum play to it's strengths and strike out in a wholly different direction.

We started DUF because we wanted something different.  People still want DUF to survive.  The hosting chugs on regardless, because there are a few people - even one person - who wants it to exist.  Against all odds, it's still there, hanging on 7 years later - that says a lot.  Think about it.

fungus, at debianuserforums.org you will not be subject to censorship - though neither is anyone else.  Feel free... wink

#80 Re: Installation » pkgmaster is repository hell » 2018-01-27 18:55:58

fungus wrote:

Cynwulf, I don't disagree with much of what you say, but there has been evidence on systemd being a little more than just not "as functional as it claims", or becoming a monolyth mediator between linux and all other software.  It  is about security.  And that becomes automatically political, whether it relates to user and big corporations or the user and the state.

If it's about security, then don't use it.  If you don't trust the software or the developers, you look elsewhere, it's that simple (and no security is not "automatically political").

NSA or whoever, don't need crap like systemd, they have backdoors in all major OS, there are exploits, hidden for decades in common software and even in the silicon itself.  A specific backdoor in a specific "init system" (thingie) for a specific OS and only a subset of distributions at that, is not that useful.

One could say that systemd is "just business"....  makes a lot more sense than the alternative conspiracy shit.  And that's my take on systemd, always has been  - it's a business move for Red Hat Inc.

When you have the likes of Intel and AMD building in the IME/PSP to all new chips, security on x86 becomes nothing more than a token thing ( and as most should know from recent revelations at least, security was never a focus there anyway (never mind that numerous experts warned about it's general crappiness over a decade ago).

"Security" in most fields of computing can in fact be complete and utter bullshit.  Looks at Windows AV software.  You don't need to make something secure, you just have to convince enough people that 'retroactive security' is viable, get them to open the wallets and bend minds accordingly...

My point is, that if you don't like this Linux distribution or how it's developed, then you have a choice.

#81 Re: Installation » pkgmaster is repository hell » 2018-01-26 21:37:40

golinux wrote:

Oh dear...

Some people should at least stick to software ideologies.

As you know, I'm not a Devuan user (or a Debian or Linux user) and you've known my opinions on this project from day one (so once again, thank you for tolerating my continued presence), but any project founded on "anti" sentiment is pretty much doomed from the start.  This forum seems to be keeping it technical, it's getting it right thus far, it surprises me that such crap is being posted on the mailing lists...

Political and ideological opinions mean absolutely nothing in the world of software development.  The person who made your morning coffee could be racist, xenophobic and homophobic - it's in their head and there's actually fuck all you can do about it.  Hans Reiser killed his wife, so some people don't use his FS.  You have no idea about the beliefs of the rest of the developers of any given FOSS code / OS - however extreme they may be (my personal worry has always been that there may be a few Elton John fans in the mix, sneaking references into the code here and there...).

You'll also find that more than 50% of Linux fans are clueless when it comes to the origins of free software, the ideology of FSF/RMS and the permissive approach as pioneered by UC Berkeley.  They will rant and foam at the mouth at having one piece of Poettering crap installed, while not necessarily knowing where the rest of the software comes from, whether it's "good code", who developed it and to what end.

The birth of systemd has all come about on RMS' watch.  It's yet more freedesktop.org shite, which sets out to emulate "what Apple are doing" or "what MS are doing".  The Linux foundation sold out to fortune 500 companies years ago, every bit of work done there is at the behest of IBM, Alphabet, HP, Oracle, et al and now even MS have joined in the gang bang.

Red Hat developed systemd, because they're in the business of enterprise support and what better way to secure that business model than to create that which has to be supported from scratch?  MS made a business out of this for decades as have others, it's nothing new.

Distributions adopted it, because those pushing it gained sufficient "mind share".  Amazingly developers, supposedly smart people, were convinced that a large mass of complex and poorly written code is the answer to everything.  Because it's so widely accepted, the fallacy of popularity comes into play.  systemd "works".  I have to use MS Windows for a living and I can assure you that "it works".  But systemd works for those that want the functionality it provides.  People are fickle and it's easy to cater for laziness or inability and a need for convenience.  At a certain point when those are in abundance, code correctness, simplicity, robustness - and above all security goes out the window - mainly because it's making somebody somewhere's life (job) a lot easier (for now).

In a distance future the cycle will begin anew and the replacement for systemd/Linux will be born, as GNU and Linux were.

GPL's code can't be just closed off and re-purposed, RMS put a lot of time and energy into that, but it's developers can be bought off, put on the payroll or just convinced and that's what has happened - over the last two decades.  The developers can also write bad code, code which doesn't follow "UNIX Philosophy", isn't POSIX compliant, mainly because someone will convince someone else that all of that has gone out of fashion.

But when all is said and done, software development is about doing...  whining on a mailing list won't achieve anything good.  Personally if I didn't like an OS and if I had the choice, I would just stop using it.  As someone once said: "shut up and hack".

BSD, GNU, Linux and other FOSS projects used to all about "by hackers for hackers" - for Linux and associated projects, all of that is past.  The gulf between the developer and the user has widened to the extent that, to Linux users, contacting a developer is unthinkable (and in certain cases - not possible).

There is a huge difference however in *BSD land.  For example, I had a short but interesting exchange with a well known developer (of OpenBSD) some years ago while (unsuccessfully) trying to resolve a device driver problem.  It was an enlightening experience.

In *BSD land emailing the developer is the norm, conversing with developers on the mailing lists is the norm.  Doing it yourself is the norm.

In Linux land, complaining and whining and posting "me too" against every bug report is the norm.  Complaining that Linux distro abc doesn't do what you want it to do is the norm, complaining that Linux distro x is not the same as Linux distro y is the norm.  In fact posting all manner of noise and very little signal is now, very much, the norm.

#82 Re: Installation » pkgmaster is repository hell » 2018-01-26 15:48:26

fungus wrote:

I want nothing to do with DNG premadonas and their tolerance to neonazis and intolerance to those who tried to block neonazi propaganda and got the boot from the list!!!!   REMEMBER!  We do not forget we don't forgive, easily!

Links or it didn't happen.

#83 Re: Off-topic » What's the point to keep maintaining DEVUAN? » 2018-01-21 15:02:35

spartrekus.git wrote:

Hello,

I see not really a point to keep DEVUAN being maintained.[etc] Wayland, SystemD, Pulseaudio, ... is the future !   
[etc]
Another Unix BSD user.

Great trolling!

#84 Re: Installation » Downgrading Ascii back to Jessie » 2018-01-11 21:09:14

The only way to downgrade is to strip back to a bare system and run an upgrade specifying the release you want to "upgrade", gthen painstakingly go through downgrading individuals and removing problem packages.  apt will warn you that packages are to be downgraded (I've done it successfully, but that was back in the days of Debian etch, lenny and squeeze).  It's rarely worth the effort however and better to just reinstall.

#85 Re: Other Issues » ATK bridge not found [SOLVED] » 2018-01-11 20:59:39

Maybe missing dbus "plumbing"...  probably an error you can safely ignore?  (as with most of the crap gtk spits out)

https://packages.debian.org/source/jessie/at-spi2-atk

You could try installing "libatk-adaptor" (the only other relevant binary built from that source package) and see if that "silences" it...

#86 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] startx fails since upgrade to 4.9 kernel » 2018-01-11 16:32:13

00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation Device 1918 (rev 07)

Apparently this is a 'skylake' chip.  Stable support was added in the 4.2 kernel.  However from a few duckduckgo searches, it's been problematic.

Blacklisting of kernel mode setting drivers is less likely to work these days.

To boot with kernel mode setting disabled append nomodeset to the kernel command line (i915.modeset=0 also works).  This can be made permanent via bootloader config.

The 3.16 kernel didn't support your hardware, so was likely loading the vesa driver.  Disabling KMS on the 4.9 kernel and NOT explicitly loading the intel driver via any xorg  configuration files, should yield the same result on the 4.9 kernel (the vesa driver being used).  But surely just using vesa is not you end objective...?

You could just build a stable or mainline kernel, boot, startx leaving auto configured (no xorg config), cross your fingers and see what happens.

But mesa/drm and especially xorg (in particular xf86-video-intel) may all benefit from an upgrade.  Simply put - the jessie release is probably too old for your hardware.  It might be best for you to install the testing distribution.  If the 4.9 kernel yields the same results there, building a newer kernel for that toolchain will be more worthwhile than building one for what you have now.

#87 Re: Devuan » Install systemd on devuan or switching to dev1 from slackware » 2018-01-11 15:23:35

The problem with that approach is that the binary is not built for the target system and dependencies have moved on, become obsolete, etc (for that particular package there are quite a few examples).  Generally with any Debian system (or system based on Debian), stable freezes and testing/unstable diverges further and further away.  So you may get away with this early on in a stable release, but it's less likely 12 months later.

You may on occasion be able to install one local package (via dpkg), with few dependencies, which are already satisfied by the installed distribution, but adding another distribution's repositories is a bad idea, as you can end up with half of that distribution installed or worse still find yourself in a situation where an "accidental" (broken) upgrade has occurred.

Even with a good knowledge of apt pinning, setting default release, disabling automatic upgrades, etc, it's still a bad idea, unless you're running a mixed testing/unstable system and know exactly what you're doing.

#88 Re: Devuan » Install systemd on devuan or switching to dev1 from slackware » 2018-01-11 08:27:02

It would be useful to know why you're switching from Slackware?  You're going to find anything Debian based very different.

To install it as a package, you would have to backport it - and no, that's not quite as simple as sbopkg (which is "automation" for building from slackbuilds), but not exactly rocket science if you're prepared to read some documentation and experiment a bit.

Alternatively you could just get the source and build it and install to /usr/local

#89 Re: Other Issues » Meltdown and Spectre » 2018-01-10 11:22:02

fungus wrote:

I can't figure out why that is.  Maybe most of what I do only requires a single core/thread and even though this i7 clocks at 3.9 and mine at 3.3 it should still be way ahead.

In terms of clock speed it's not actually that huge a difference.  Apparently that core is 3.4GHz and can overclock to 3.9GHz, which I assume you have?

Usually modern CPUs don't run full belt 100% of the time.  They use "dynamic frequency scaling" to increase clock speed on demand.  Also unless you're running tasks which make heavy use of multi-threaded programmes you're not going to see a huge difference if you're just browsing or word processing, etc.

Linux uses the procfs filesystem, you could grep /proc/cpuinfo to see what MHz you're running at?

Then put the system under load, e.g. compile something (such as a new kernel?) with a parallel build (number of jobs = 1.5x the number of cores).

grep /proc/cpuinfo again to see if the clock speed has increased.

As I recall, with modern Intel CPU's, it's all configured via the BIOS... so the frequency scaling should be turned on there (forgot the Intel "brand names" for these) and Linux cpufreq driver isn't needed.

#90 Re: Other Issues » Meltdown and Spectre » 2018-01-08 10:39:28

joril wrote:
MiyoLinux wrote:

Perhaps this will shed more information?

https://www.debian.org/security/2018/dsa-4078

Ok so according to this page, Jessie is still vulnerable... hmm Thanks!

Looks like it.  The 3.16.x longterm branch hasn't been patched upstream.  You may find out why by searching the Linux kernel Mailing List.

However, there are 35 security issues related to Linux in the jessie release: https://security-tracker.debian.org/tra … kage/linux

As you seem concerned, I suggest building a new upstream longterm 4.4 or 4.9 kernel which have the KPTI patches.

greenjeans wrote:

All AMD here for last dozen years, but I guess Spectre still applies...looks like it may be a difficult fix?

The only real 'fix' is new CPUs without these flaws...

fungus wrote:

There is no such thing as apt dist-upgrade.

Seems to be "full-upgrade" (as is the case with aptitude): https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/apt/apt.8.en.html

#91 Re: Other Issues » Meltdown and Spectre » 2018-01-06 13:26:56

# apt-get update && apt-get upgrade

?

You can always grab the source and build a new kernel.

The "spectre" "fix" isn't so simple I suggest reading at least the white papers at the sites set up for these.

#92 Re: Devuan » Considering migration from a different distribution. » 2017-12-21 14:40:39

hurricane wrote:

_ Has anybody got the unreal engine working on Devuan?

This is not really distribution dependent.  Two Unreal engines were ported several years ago: UT99 and UT2K3/UT2K4.  These were proprietary Linux ports.

Unreal Engine 4 is different matter: https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/faq

#93 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Frequent indexing thrashes HDD » 2017-12-20 12:35:22

It's not (usually) a file system thing, so I'd imagine you have some kind of 'indexing service' running?  Without more details, it's going to be difficult to say.  If it's something which starts with a particular desktop you're running, just disable it.

#94 Re: Off-topic » in 32bit, you, simply, can more! » 2017-12-07 17:03:01

oui wrote:

the problem is, Google did change extremely the rules:

if you visit the Google page of youtube (yes, youtube is now google, do never forget it!) concerning html5, you will see that no other browser as firefox, and only under the condition of some restrictions concerning hardware etc., under the FREE BROWSER can handle HTML5!
[...]
it is exact what Google did want pushing html5!

While I'm certainly no fan of Alphabet/Google, I'm not sure why you conclude that the W3C's EME DRM in HTML5 is solely the fault of Google?

The other 471 W3C members include, among others, some large media companies from around the world, who are certainly interested in pushing DRM to protect their revenue streams.

https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List

Sadly HTML5's EME was given momentum by the "we must get rid of flash at all costs" people and others bought into the inevitability of polluting open WWW standards with a DRM provision as a necessary evil for watching streaming video.

flash was and still is a turd, but at least it was a turd you could choose to avoid.  Now unless you compile your browser from source, DRM is built in.

#95 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Clarity regarding eth0 device name » 2017-11-29 22:05:00

udev is part of the systemd source tree - it's a systemd component.  This wasn't always the case, but since around 2012 (?) it is now.

It has zero to do with "network manager".

Device nodes are generated dynamically at boot by udev.  This is one of the much vaunted "features".

You can, or could, still just revert to a static /dev, make all your device nodes and just bin udev altogether.  Though, it's a use case thing - horses for courses, etc.  (Full blown desktops, won't like it...)

Alternatives to udev, you'd probably have to port over and build from source yourself.

#96 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Which AMD/ATI radeon firmware is being used....? RV710/M92 » 2017-11-29 21:50:48

The firmware is non executable code which runs on the device itself.  It's not a Linux binary (or even a Windows binary).  For some devices, the firmware is loaded onto the device rather than already residing on the device (e.g. hard disk controllers, system BIOS, most ethernet adapters, etc).

For those devices requiring userspace loading of the firmware (very commonly USB devices), the firmware has to be available or the device simply will not start and will be unusable.

x86/amd64 hardware (and some ARM evaluation boards such as Raspberry Pi) is already a mess of firmware (the biggest messes being UEFI and Intel and AMD microcode to name just a few) so just focusing on these bits of proprietary firmware and claiming a particular OS or Linux distribution is "free" because it omits them is what amounts to snake oil salesmanship.

firmware-linux-nonfree package contains an assortment of this for various hardware, including firmware for the various AMD GPUs.  Without the firmware you certainly won't get hardware accelerated direct rendering and probably not any form of power management either.

The package xserver-xorg-video-radeon (-ati) is the xorg driver.  It is the kernel mode setting driver (part of the kernel) which usually initiates the loading of the device firmware.

The short version is that if you want to use your hardware, you'll need to keep the firmware installed.

If you object to the firmware, because it's proprietary, then you probably need to abandon x86 and look at the (few and expensive) open hardware alternatives.

#97 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Clarity regarding eth0 device name » 2017-11-29 21:34:47

If you pass 'net.ifnames=0' to the kernel command line it will disable the "predictable" network interface device node naming. i.e it will return to the old eth0, eth1... naming.

It will not solve the OP's problem of persistent naming.  That used to be resolved by clearing /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules (in this case it would need to be run on every shutdown).

Combining the two approaches should give the desired result ("eth0" as the sole network interface).

however this is actually systemd we're talking about, so it's a moving target.  What works now, may no longer work in 6 months' time.

It's probably more advisable to switch away from systemd/udev and invest time in learning the alternatives...

#98 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Clarity regarding eth0 device name » 2017-11-29 13:16:50

tlathm wrote:

What I was referring to specifically, as we ran into on CentOS 6, is when udev records an identifier for for a specific NIC card in /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules. If the same VM boots in a different VM environment, it will end up with eth1 rather than eth0 unless that file has been removed, so we remove it at shutdown.

Yes as far as I know you will always have to remove that file at shutdown otherwise udev will try to enumerate interfaces with unique device nodes, lead to a build up of eth0, eth1, eth2, etc...

tlathm wrote:

The other issue, which I recall from way back with my Gentoo machines, was that switch to the entirely different naming scheme that replaces the eth0 naming. Under Gentoo that was prevented by simply adding a dummy file at /etc/udev/rules.d/80-net-name-slot.rules. I'm assuming we didn't run into that in CentOS 6 as that uses udev 147.

This is the problem covered by ralph.ronnquist's reply.

tlathm wrote:

As a matter of fact I've also replaced that grub 2 nightmare with syslinux...I wasn't not much happier with that than any of this udev stuff.

As a boot loader / boot manager, grub is doing far more than it should be.  It's a really pity lilo and elilo development stopped.

#100 Re: Off-topic » Firefox Quantum » 2017-11-28 12:40:48

It still seems to be in use in Gentoo: https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/commit … 00924d6eb7

Do you have a link which shows those options are now removed in 57?

As far as I know, asla-lib support is still usable but no longer actively developed.

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