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#51 Re: Off-topic » Is 'shell' a misnomer ? » 2025-05-28 18:36:53

So speaking in general we want programs to have hooks and interfaces that allow for interactive use and automate use.  Why an effort to achieve that would be called 'Shell' make no sense to me.The subtitle of Louis Pouzin paper 'A Global Tool for Callling and Chaining Procedures in the System' makes more sense.

#53 Re: Off-topic » Is 'shell' a misnomer ? » 2025-05-28 16:20:30

Reading multicians.org/shell and especially the shell related linked paper ti seems that in early 60s in the timesharing era when the 'shell' concept emerged it wasnt about external system aspects or the systems outer layer encircliing the kernel. It seems to me that it was an effort to allow calling 'commands' (user initiated programs from a console) from another program.

I am not sure why the 'shell' word was choosen. But from reading the shell paper doesnt seem plausible to me the idea of creating an outer - interface to the user. The way the ideas are presented its like builing a system that merges interacting and automated use of routines. The word -interface- is used but i think refering to the user.

Then in 64 came the Multics design time, in which I was not much involved, because I had made it clear I wanted to return to France in mid 65. However, this idea of using commands somehow like a programming language was still in the back of my mind. Christopher Strachey, a British scientist, had visited MIT about that time, and his macro-generator design appeared to me a very solid base for a command language, in particular the techniques for quoting and passing arguments. Without being invited on the subject, I wrote a paper explaining how the Multics command language could be designed with this objective. And I coined the word "shell" to name it. It must have been at the end of 64 or beginning of 65.

Louis Pouzin on the Shell origins.

4.1 . We may envision a common procedure called automatically by the supervisor whenever a user types in some message at his console, at a time when he has no other process in active execution under control . This procedure acts as in interface between console messages and subroutines.
The purpose of such a procedure is to create a medium of exchange into which one could activate any procedure , as if it were called from the inside of another program.

Louis Pouzin . The SHELL : A Global Tool for Calling and Chaining Procedures in the System

So you have interactively called programs (commands) and you want to create a way to chain them - use the as parts of a another program. Isnt that a description of today 'shell scripting' ? In that context what we call 'shell' started as a way to make user-interactive programs accessible to automation by being able to became part of a larger program. That is not a 'shell' - outer layer semantics.

#54 Re: Off-topic » Hospitals and the irc#devuan » 2025-05-28 16:13:51

IRC is usefull as part of the devuan project as it tries to accomplice a rather difficult promise . The promise that LLM tools try to satisfy.The promise of helping you as quick as possible , 'now' . And emergencies are issues that do have that time-urgent aspect.

#55 Re: Off-topic » Is 'shell' a misnomer ? » 2025-05-28 16:10:52

If 'shell' means outside-exterior interface of a system to it's user then any user progrram could be seen as 'shell' like.

I agree that CLI-TUI Shell  is more suitable.

Shell : exterior interface
UI   : interface to whom ? the User
CLI : Its interpreter of commands

But still i think is missing the coordination - orchestrating part of setting up and running workflows using a comp system's resources.

#56 Off-topic » Is 'shell' a misnomer ? » 2025-05-28 10:55:45

chomwitt
Replies: 6

I think that 'shell' is a semantically coarse word that highlights semantics of enclosure,protection, (maybe thinness) that stuck , and latter its usage was reinforced of the proliferation in unix-textbooks of the classic image of the shell encircling the kernel.

We could of course still use that word but i think the semantics of the 'shell' are not align with the way we use the process 'shell'.

The 'shell' is the default process that a computational system presents to its human user by default.

A user can use the 'shell' to set up workflows of processes.  A user can also automate by scripting workflows of processes.

So i think the 'use' entails semantics of control, management , coordination , language intepreter , admininstration , human interface , mediator.

In that context even CLI seems semantically more corect. But still missing some central semantics.

Surely the 'shell' does NOT encirlcle the 'kernel' . A user process started by the shell or automatically when the system boots also is close to the kernel services.

So a 'shell' seems to be a user process that is best suited to a task that others are not. That task is workflow setup , management and control.

#57 Off-topic » Hospitals and the irc#devuan » 2025-05-28 06:45:51

chomwitt
Replies: 15

A recent family issue made me visit hospitals very frequently.

And yesterday an issue poped up in irc#devuan. A devuan friend had a strange xorg issue in his monitor.
Immediately two other friends tryied to help him.

My brain connected some neuro-dots and i thought that that situation reminds me of the emergencies part of
a hospital. The first step in greek hospitals is 'διαλογη' which means in direct translation selection. After
a first examination is determined at what part of the hospital the patient will be delivered.
(but the first first step is giving your social security number to the front desk)
(after selection the front desk gives you a plastic bracelet with name and a tracking id).

So i cant help wonder.If irc is like emergencies could a user-patience been delivered to the forums ? or the mailiing list ?or to another irc channel ? And what about issue tracking ?
(i think it would be helpfull to be able to create new irc temp channels at will).

The way irc works now is like emergencies but assuming that the issue can be solved (or not) in that 'compartment' alone
and only by the brave friends that are in the front line for the most hours!.
But i think that its possibly that the broader devuan community could have helpfull feedback (but maybe in different timeframes) but it is unaware of the emergencies happening. And even it the issue is successfully dealt with again it seems to me that the incident (as info generated) is contained in the irc logs and thus dont make waves to the broader community that could (when filtered) make devuan adapt and change.

Of course loosing a patience means many things (mostly negative .. :-)  like diverting to morewebsearching.

Also i couldnt help but wonder if a hospital building structure imposes a certain selection and treatment form when instead it could be better for a patience to be assigned maybe in paraller to more that one 'clinic' and  force those doctors to colloborate and move near the patience rather that the petience assigned to only one clinic. So the networked structure of info flowing that would help more a patience is misaligned from the brick structure.

#58 Hardware & System Configuration » Nouveua vs Nvidia benchmarks on GM206 » 2025-04-21 13:49:46

chomwitt
Replies: 1

context : devuan packages / nvidia-driver @
               devuan wiki / nvidia gpus @
               devuan forum / Installation > How to install nvidia drivers in daedalus? @
               debian wiki / NvidiaGraphicsDrivers @
               wikipedia / List of Nvidia graphics processing units @
               nouveau / codenames @
               debian package tracker / glmark2 @

After installing nvidia driver in Daedalus i took the chance to perform a couple of benchmarks
to see how libre nouveau performs relative to propriatery nvidia gpu drivers.

I use two benchmarks : glmark2 and unigine's Valley 2013 .(Superposition 2017 wasnt executing with nouveau)

$ inxi -G
Graphics:  Device-1: NVIDIA GM206 [GeForce GTX 960]

Unigine Valley Benchmark 1.0

System
Platform:     Linux 6.1.0-33-amd64 x86_64
CPU model:     Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4790 CPU @ 3.60GHz (3597MHz) x8
GPU model:     NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960 PCI Express 535.216.01 (4096MB) x1
Settings
Render:     OpenGL
Mode:     1440x900 fullscreen
Preset     Custom
Quality     High'

FPS:     99.8
Score:     4176
Min FPS:     43.3
Max FPS: 167.8

FPS:     10.8
Score:     452
Min FPS:     7.5
Max FPS:     16.5

glmark2 Score: 842
glmark2 Score: 17719

Something else that i would like to benchmark is the time it takes dekstop process to open their window.
It seem to me in nouveau the window took more time to appear.

ps : I align here with a mainstream mentality that focus on certain aspects of a software use. But from another
libre distro community perspective thinking in terms of community workflow integration , security , not to mention
of course the ability to study and alter the code the nouveau would be a better choice. Of course i cant help to
wonder why some libre projects like X server , nouveau seem so sterile in terms of forks in contrast with other
areas like window management. I would make a first guess that the more closer you get to the hardware the
less flexible a programmers becomes.

#59 Re: Installation » How to install nvidia drivers in daedalus? » 2025-04-21 13:42:47

I disabled secureboot in my asus bios and i installed again  nvidia-driver. Again i got the error with nvidia-persistence but after reboot nvidia driver seem so far to work ok.

#60 Re: Installation » How to install nvidia drivers in daedalus? » 2025-04-21 12:10:45

$ sudo nvidia-detect
Detected NVIDIA GPUs:
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: NVIDIA Corporation GM206 [GeForce GTX 960] [10de:1401] (rev a1)

Checking card:  NVIDIA Corporation GM206 [GeForce GTX 960] (rev a1)
Your card is supported by all driver versions.
Your card is also supported by the Tesla 470 drivers series.
It is recommended to install the
    nvidia-driver
package.

In my first attempt to install the nvidia-driver

$ sudo apt-get install nvidia-driver
...
Setting up nvidia-persistenced (535.171.04-1~deb12u1) ...
Starting NVIDIA Persistence Daemon
nvidia-persistenced failed to initialize. Check syslog for more details.
invoke-rc.d: initscript nvidia-persistenced, action "start" failed.
dpkg: error processing package nvidia-persistenced (--configure):
installed nvidia-persistenced package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 1

......
nvidia-persistenced E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
...

I tried to follow an stopAI's idea from the thread nvidia-persistenced failed to initialize.

$ sudo apt-get  purge nvidia-*
$ sudo apt install --no-install-recommends nvidia-driver

$ sudo dmesg | grep nvidia
[    0.648792] udevd[160]: Error running install command 'modprobe -i nvidia-current ' for module nvidia: retcode 1

.

I also follow the debian wiki guide @(Nvidia Proprietary GPU Drivers).
There there is a section on enroll your machine owner's key (MOK) to use DKMS modules.
Is that relevant in Daedalus if secure boot is enabled ?

#61 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Desktop app menu between different windows managers. » 2025-03-28 16:55:55

I tried menumaker and in daedalus and the configure script cant see python3 and python2 is not available.

The python script  mmaker works in Daedalus if we change the first line to #!/usr/bin/env python3

$ ./mmaker -f PekWM    worked.

#62 Re: Off-topic » curated pico-distributions (aka curated workflows) » 2025-03-26 07:19:57

In the general view of my general proposal (establishing community workflows of testing curated-workflow-metapackages ) i want to add two more arguments:
1. In the web developement it is common to propose to new developers , not single packages but 'bundles' .The classic example being LAMP .
2. Devuan installer includes the step done by tasksel   :

Tasksel package provides a simple interface for users who want to configure their system to perform a specific task

$ tasksel --list-tasks 
u desktop	Devuan desktop environment
u xfce-desktop	Xfce
u mate-desktop	MATE
u cinnamon-desktop	Cinnamon
u gnome-desktop	GNOME
u kde-desktop	KDE
u lxde-desktop	LXDE
u lxqt-desktop	LXQt
u gnome-flashback-desktop	GNOME Flashback
u web-server	web server
u console-productivity	Console productivity
u ssh-server	SSH server
u laptop	laptop

So we see that already during installation there is a logic of proposing workflows to the user. It could be argued that that is for the benefit of the less experienced user. But the list doesnt seem focused on that use case. It has also :web-server,console-productivity,ssh-server. So does that selection makes sense ?  Or is it an abandonded dead file lingering forgetten in a repo missing any integration to community practices ?

(ps: bunsen laptop seem cool).
(ps2: i wonder if other distros have similar to tasksel utilities).

#63 Re: Off-topic » curated pico-distributions (aka curated workflows) » 2025-03-24 21:40:08

Thank you for your views.

Althought i understand the overcomplication argument i tend to like the idea and the examples presented by EDX-0.   

For now when devuan installer present to us certain desktop enviroment to choose i think that that list of choices in a certain degree reflect choosen desktop workflows that are there not due to a stable consensus building process inside a community but in a certain degree to trends and inertia. 

So in that light my proposal could take another form. Establish a community process where curated-package-workflows are proposed, tested and if stable enough pass to the installer or
similar utilities .

#64 Off-topic » curated pico-distributions (aka curated workflows) » 2025-02-23 09:33:26

chomwitt
Replies: 8

A package is a social software. @.

It needs libraries , and it may suggest other software.

But when a Devuan user establishes a certain workflows it creates also dependecies among software (and among file-types).

So i propose a format for curared - eso-devuan workflows where user can publish those interdepencies.

eg:

apt-get install-workflow  johh:lowlevelrprogramming
apt-get install-workflow olga:digitalpainting-begginer

#65 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Desktop app menu between different windows managers. » 2025-02-21 17:28:06

stopAI thanks for the link to the Menumaker. Camtaf i will try it!.

#66 Desktop and Multimedia » Desktop app menu between different windows managers. » 2025-02-21 16:37:06

chomwitt
Replies: 7

Version: Daedalus

In XFCE installing a programs like Hexchat , Firefox i can see them in the app menu .
If a switch to a wm like pekwm or jwm i can see a Debian menu with some apps but i neither Hexchat or Firefox are in the app menu.

I know there is a related standard Desktop Entry Specification.
I wonder jwm and pekwm are the ones that dont follow the standard.

#67 Other Issues » Cant edit old posts with dead links to the old wiki » 2024-12-18 08:00:53

chomwitt
Replies: 1

Devuan wiki has changed and i tried to edit some posts to correct dead links , but the forum doesnt allow me to edit old posts:
eg: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=6496

#68 Re: News & Announcements » November 27 is a day to celebrate! » 2024-11-28 09:44:46

Happy birthday to Devuan and all the supportive community.
Congratulations to VUA for your willingness and effort to create Devuan.

I hope the spirit of Devuan expressed so eloquently by @jaromill will live a long time.

(ps: a dozen of old issues links are dead)

#69 Other Issues » Do application specific repositories break a distro? » 2024-11-27 09:08:27

chomwitt
Replies: 1

I keep bumbing on that pattern.
Emacs has. its repos.
Firefox has its plugins.
Various programming languages like python,clisp etc have their own package repos
Games like oolite have also their own repos (although oolite is not in devuan).

Anyway. I wonder if one relies heavily on various repos could we say that the more s(he) relies
on them them more (s)he misaligns with the distro used?
And then tasks like system updates or and general sysadmin and maintenance become more complex or error prone ?

In the worst lighting is as if a package act in accordance with a distro's house-rules but only to break them the moment it's installed.

My favorite analogy analogy in similar matter that i think is usefull in a range of similar phenomena (from emac's repos to appimages to containers) is that of a big house that accept regular guests. The initial owners have set a rulebook. Where to put your garbage , how to use common utilities , timetables etc. In that context  a container-like visitor would be analogous to bringing his own appliances (fridge, toilet  , library etc). It kind of remind me of a funny scene of the movie Coming to America with Eddy Merphie as a prince.

I think the discussion is usefull in order to calculate better the merits of each solution we choose.
For example when choosing a webbrowser or a programmming enviroment.

#70 Re: Other Issues » nfs client timeo option not working » 2024-11-21 11:01:21

fsmithred thanks for pointing towards autofs.  I have started experimenting with it:

# nano /etc/auto.master
/nfs /etc/auto.nfs

and

# nano /etc/auto.nfs
filestore    192.168.1.70:/home/chomwitt/NFSExport

I also added a newline at the end of both file due to a related hint in the archwiki page.

$ /etc/init.d/autofs status
automount is running.

But i can not  access from directory /nfs/filestore my remote files.

How do i troubleshoot that?
I found showmount command and it can find my remote nfs share.

$ sudo showmount -e 192.168.1.70
Export list for 192.168.1.70:
/home/chomwitt/NFSExport 192.168.1.73

ok. it worked. But no 'filestore' directory is created . But when in my filemanager (thunar) i entered /nfs/filestore my remote files appeared!

#71 Other Issues » nfs client timeo option not working » 2024-11-18 14:46:34

chomwitt
Replies: 3

I want my devuan pc running an nfs client to be flexible in case the nfs server is not available .
By flexible i mean be able to bootup with no delays and my desktop file manager to work with
no hungups.

With my  (client)/etc/fstab
192.168.1.90:/home/chomwitt/NFSExport   /nfs/general   nfs   defaults,timeo=900,retrans=5,_netdev       0 0
my client will seemingly freeze at booting at the line:
starting nfs utilities : imapd, idmapd
and file managers freeze also in my desktop.

I tried in (client)/etc/fstab :
192.168.1.90:/home/chomwitt/NFSExport   /nfs/general   nfs   soft,timeo=30,retrans=5,  0 0
But again the client wont start (i mean booting my devuan pc) for many minutes as in my original settup

My latest try is:
192.168.1.76:/home/chomwitt/NFSExport   /nfs/general   nfs   soft,timeo=3   0  0
was better but still takes a minute.

My latest try is:
192.168.1.76:/home/chomwitt/NFSExport   /nfs/general   nfs   soft,retrans=1,retry=0,timeo=1   0  0
worked ok.
I found that on here

Unfortunately although i ve read the nfs man page i cant say that helped me.
For example timeo=30 should amount to 3 sec and not a minute that i experience.

#72 Re: Other Issues » Setting static ip on Devuan » 2024-11-11 18:26:58

Thank a lot Dutch_Master. I wasnt aware of dhcp reservation of IPs. Indeed in my adsl gateway is called DHCP binding
but also 'leased ip' seems a good term.

But why i have to reboot ? Is that due to linux or runit ?

#73 Other Issues » Setting static ip on Devuan » 2024-11-11 15:12:44

chomwitt
Replies: 4

One common case in my home is setting static ip in order to setup
nfs shares on client PCs.
I prefer cabled ethernet lan.

More recenty i tried to set static ip in a devuan(daedalus)+xfce pc.

source /etc/network/interfaces.d/*

# The loopback network interface
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback

# The primary network interface
auto eth0
iface eth0 inet static
address 192.168.1.30
netmask 255.255.255.0
gateway 192.168.1.1

Now i try to restart networking either from the xfce panel or the command line.
Not being experienced in runit i checked for relative network service under runit but couldnt find something:

$ less /etc/network/interfaces

$ sudo sv status /etc/service/*

So i tried with:

$ sudo /etc/init.d/networking restart

But that didnt worked either so i rebooted and then i got static ip.

$ sudo ip addr show

So my question is : do i have to reboot ?

#74 Other Issues » Better argument handling from apt-cache ? » 2024-11-05 09:26:11

chomwitt
Replies: 2

I think there are various idiosyncracies in apt utilities that hinder their use.
I must do work(1) before using one tool or one of the tool options to be sure
if it uses glob or regex and if it tries to substitute the first with the latter
if the first wont be successfull. And of couse in doing that (using
a failed glob as a regex) more idiosyncracies creep in.

Also that is one class of idiosyncracies (argument type handling) .
I had (have) issues with not knowing what is exactly the search
space of a certain argument . Does it search the package name only
or also in other fields ? My experience again warns me to be
cautios and investigate further many times.

I would hope a utility could be more transparent toward
the sysadm about what type of argument it accepts and
what it does with that.
I wonder if such an endeavor would interest anyone. Also
i wonder if the language implementing the utilities hinders
or not a less frictioned use.

(1) And by work i hopped it meant just looking up the man page .
I find my self doing various tests to understand what happens
in each case.

--------- examples ---------
-------------- search space idiosyncracies ------

$ sudo apt-cache -n search  '.*aa$'      / although i used -n  apt-cache give me in the result package names not matching my regex.

-------------- pattern type handling idiosyncracies ------

$ sudo apt-cache  policy  'freeb.*'     / uses regex
$ sudo apt-cache  policy  'freeb*'      / uses glob
$ sudo apt-cache showpkg '*aaa*    /
$ sudo apt-cache showpkg '^aa.*' | grep '^Package'      // regex

$ sudo apt-get install pattern          / will report in its result if it uses the pattern as a glob or as a regex.  Which i found it helpfull.

#75 Re: Off-topic » Several Russian Linux Kernel Maintainers Removed » 2024-11-05 08:55:19

I wonder if that will impact also further science collaboration. What about the fusion reactor from EU ? Russia contributes parts .
Will that be banned too or politicians do that in piece by piece way and they think linux problems wont hurt the west?
Also i wonder how easy and meaningfull is to align country-level policy changes with a libre license that allows anyone to fork the project.

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