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#26 Re: Off-topic » Hard Rust requirements for APT from may next year » 2025-11-05 08:11:00

HardSun wrote:

What in your opinion does Julian mean by retro devices?

Hardware only supported by ports which do not have a working rust toolchain, obviously. That's right there in the quote from your OP, no "opinion" needed.
If you can't be bothered to check out which ports those are and which architectures they target, why would I bother to opine on the matter?

HardSun wrote:

how future proof is my computer 5 years from now?

Crystal ball is out on loan. roll

HardSun wrote:

Is it holding back progress to keep using my 15 year old toshiba laptop even though it still works?

Is your 15 year old laptop reliant on a Debian port that doesn't have a working rust toolchain?

HardSun wrote:

The way it reads to me is that rust may change the type of computer debian can run on in the not too distant future

Read harder. Rust is just a programming language. Rust has sweet bugger all to do with what Debian does or does not run on.

The "type of computer" roll Debian can run on is a function of the "type of computer" Debian can be built on. That means having a working compiler toolchain for every required component and language involved, which can produce code that will run on the target architecture.
Adding rust to APT simply moves the rust toolchain from "recommended" (i.e. needed for some optional software) to "required" (needed for core Debian utilities) - alongside C, C++, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

HardSun wrote:

in favor of newer spec computers and iot stuff, which kind of falls in line with the AI hype and how microsoft treats its customers.

Yes yes, Big Bad Evil Tech, yada yada. What does Microsoft, AI, or IoT have to do with using rust for parts of APT?

HardSun wrote:

pivot toward the bleeding edge and be done with stability

"Stability" in the sense Debian practices it is about code maturity and testing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what languages are used in that code.
If Debian releases untested unstabilised versions of APT to the stable channel, that's breaking with stability. If they rewrite it entirely in brainfuck, then put it through the full testing and stabilisation cycle before release... That's pretty annoying, but still "stable".

EDX-0 wrote:

more than half of the forum seems to be people who have never coded and whose hobby is to complain about anything and everything with the utmost learned helplessness

This whole place is a rage-against-the-machine echo-chamber for the terminally stubborn and wilfully uninformed... Which is why I rarely post here and usually get into a fight when I do.
This thread is a fine example: Ragebait OP, bunch of whinging about how bad "modern" software is and how stupid "modern" developers are, tangent rants about evil corporations and world domination... And zero technical analysis.

Now, again, million dollar question: Are any of you who are complaining actually running an affected port?

#27 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Concurrent filecopy over USB / onto NAS » 2025-11-05 05:04:14

There's no limitation on concurrent filesystem operations in "the computer" or the operating system, such "queue" functionality is clearly part of whatever file manager you're using or the VFS backend it's using for SMB.

There are zillions of tools available for copying files, I suggest you find a better one (*cough* rsync at the CLI) or file a bug report against whatever file manager that is in that cropped screenshot.

#28 Re: Off-topic » Question: Best/fastest repos in general for each continent? » 2025-11-05 04:52:49

Well, if Devuan shipped netselect-apt with a usable mirror list, we could just use that as it's supposed to be used... But of course they don't, so instead it works brilliantly for finding the best Debian mirror. roll

#29 Re: Off-topic » Hard Rust requirements for APT from may next year » 2025-11-05 04:28:15

Sweet sod all. The only way rust "excludes" anything is where there is no compiler for a particular arch... Which is to say architectures that aren't supported by current kernels or current Debian anyway.
If you want to run a current GNU/Linux distro on 25 year old 32bit hardware you're SOL, rust or no rust. Did we all moan so loudly about Linux not supporting 16bit? Or drivers for OAK VLB video cards being dropped? Or when we needed more than 4MB RAM and our 386 wasn't fast enough to run GNOME 1.1?

Does anyone here actually run GNU/Linux on a DEC Alpha or an Amiga? That covers most of the "old shit" that won't be able to compile rust code (at least not with LLVM)... Or are we just complaining for the sake of complaining?

Beyond the inevitable deprecation of ancient hardware, what language a program is written in means nothing to the end user of a binary distro at all. It's all machine code by the time you get it.

Compiler licences (i.e. clang/LLVM/rustc not being GPL) have nothing to do with the language itself. Language spec licences don't transfer to programs written in that language either.

If you never work on or even compile the code in question (neatly covering most of the chronic "new == bad" "young == stupid" "we're all doomed" whiners and conspiracy theorists around here), the language or compiler used is irrelevant... So long as the implementation isn't a mess.

IOW, Ubuntu's coreutils replacement didn't go sideways because it's a rewrite in rust, it went sideways because it's a rewrite that didn't get tested properly.
If APT with rust is maintained to the same code-quality standards as APT without rust has been, the only thing that changes for users is maybe some different libraries being installed. Any issues pertaining to language or compiler toolchains is for the developers and packagers to deal with, and they're mostly the same people wanting this to begin with.

#30 Re: Installation » Cant do upgrade Dadedalus to Ceres » 2025-09-23 19:39:11

RedGreen925 wrote:

You are off by half a decade 2008 was the year they released that steaming pile of dung that was KDE4 and dumped the previous version.

I was referring to actual work (i.e. commits/active development), not final release. ARTS itself was close enough to "finished" (by KDE standards anyway) a whiles before KDE4 release.

On KDE4 in general... Personally I don't think it was particularly "bad", as much as it was subject to the same insane development model KDE has always used:
As soon as a major version is finally usable and all serious bugs are resolved, it's time for a complete rewrite and a horribly broken .0 showcasing the newest dumb trend-chasing idea.
With KDE4 that new thing was akonadi and "semantic desktop", which is still a complete mess to this day.
KDE3 was an outlier, because it's "new thing" was fixing the intolerable loading times of KDE2 (remember "prelinking?) and adding some graphical bling... both of which are kinda hard to catastrophically bungle.

#31 Re: Installation » Cant do upgrade Dadedalus to Ceres » 2025-09-23 04:56:59

Trinity Desktop Environment ships with a (probably updated for compatibility) KDE 3 implementation

LOL, I knew TDE was keeping a few dinosaurs around, but I didn't realise they were hanging on to that particular fossil. IIRC upstream stopped doing any serious work on it somewhere around 2003. Still, if it works it works.

#32 Re: Installation » Cant do upgrade Dadedalus to Ceres » 2025-09-22 19:49:44

g4sra wrote:

I currently use arts

Uhh, I don't think we're talking about the same ARTS here. The solution I was referring to hasn't been included in KDE for over 20 years now, and I doubt it even compiles on a modern distro.

g4sra wrote:

I am confused by your statement that ALSA is not capable of 'streaming'

If you're referring to

ALSA also can't do video streaming

, then the operative word there is "video". Pipewire is more than just an audio server, it's a multimedia server... I.e. it also handles video, which ALSA, being a fairly low-level audio architecture, naturally does not.

#33 Re: Installation » Cant do upgrade Dadedalus to Ceres » 2025-09-22 11:34:24

No, I'm refusing to be drawn into an obvious trap, and a discussion which has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you must start this nonsense again, for the umpteenth boring time, find some other gullible sap.

My statements stand on their own merit, as they are based on readily verifiable fact. I have neither the need nor the desire to resort to metaphysical rambling to defend them.

#34 Re: Installation » Cant do upgrade Dadedalus to Ceres » 2025-09-22 11:08:12

Thank you for demonstrating how to say "I have no rational arguments left" without directly admitting such. I'll file it for next time I feel the urge to stage a debate in an asylum.

Aside, I'm pretty sure you've played that old card a few times already... Is it not getting a bit, ahh, trite?

#35 Re: Installation » Cant do upgrade Dadedalus to Ceres » 2025-09-22 10:26:33

igorzwx wrote:

If ALSA is so good, why do you need pulseaudio or pipewire?

Because they're completely different technologies, operating on different layers. You don't choose ALSA or pulseaudio/pipewire, you choose ALSA with or without a sound server on top of it for additional functionality.
That added functionality is primarily dynamic gapless source/sink switching, intelligent sample-rate selection, and JACK-style live patching and routing. ALSA can do most of those things by itself statically if you're willing to write a convoluted .asoundrc, but pulseaudio/pipewire does it on-the-fly without interrupting playback.

Technology evolves and expectations change. Nobody had 4 bluetooth devices they want to seamlessly switch between in 2002. Very few people had complex livestreaming setups with multiple mixed sources in 2002.
Just as OSS was extended with sound servers to deal with the rise of fancy graphical desktops and UI sound effects, ALSA was extended with sound servers to fit the needs of mobile computing, wireless audio peripherals, and an increasing number of people wanting to do complex dynamic mixing without the need for a dedicated mixing deck.

ALSA also can't do video streaming of any kind, which is one of the primary reasons to use pipewire in a wayland environment. I don't use wayland (currently), but if you do, you'll need pipewire for screenshots, video capture, and remote-desktop.

Whether you need any of that is up to you, but the software exists and is widely deployed - with many satisfied users. That speaks to more than a few people finding it useful enough to justify the added complexity.

igorzwx wrote:

Do you trust your senses and your ability to think?

Can you go a single post without trying to derail technical discussion with irrelevant pseudo-philosophical bullshit?

#36 Re: Installation » Cant do upgrade Dadedalus to Ceres » 2025-09-22 06:20:57

igorzwx wrote:

There was no need to know that there was a sound system, because it worked out of the box.

No, it most certainly did not. Many sound cards in the late 90s - early 2000s were ISA plug-n-play, which required manual probing with isapnp and manual writing of settings (IRQ, DMA etc) to a text configuration file.
If you wanted to be able to play audio from more than one application simultaneously, you had to run a sound-server such as ESD (GNOME/Enlightenment) or ARTS (KDE)... Which only worked properly so long as everything you wanted sound from used that server.

Clearly, either you weren't there or you have industrial-strength rose-tinted glasses on. Linux audio in the early 2000s sucked, it was barely better than DOS when there was a driver for your card, and half the time there wasn't.

igorzwx wrote:

But with ALSA, one has to learn something.

Yeah, you had to learn that you didn't really need to buy OSS4 to get working drivers after all, and you no longer needed to screw about with sound servers.
ALSA was created because OSS went proprietary with version 4 in 2002.  ALSA also brought DMIX, which solved the above problem and worked "out of the box" without constantly needing to find and kill whatever was tying up the sound device.

igorzwx wrote:

The problems began with ALSA

The "problems" (that ALSA was created to solve) are quite straightforward - There was no longer a viable free-software sound architecture for GNU/Linux, so one needed to be written.

igorzwx wrote:

APT is also "advanced".

Yes, it handles downloading packages for you and resolving dependencies automatically... Just like apt-get, for which it is simply a convenience frontend.
Would you prefer to do all that yourself, by hand, like Slackware?

There's nothing "hidden" about apt either for that matter, and there's no "AI" to be found in any of the Debian packaging tools beyond a garden-variety dependency resolver... Which has been there from the beginning. Frankly, your constant "everything new is a conspiracy" nonsense is as tiring as the pseudo-philosophical drivel that invariably follows it. Please stop hijacking threads and preying on new users with this trash.

stultumanto wrote:

The main thing I remember was trouble getting X11 to start on my S3 video card. My first attempt at Linux was with RedHat, but I just could not get it working. I ended up on Debian because I could actually get the desktop to appear, but only with twm at first.

I don't recall S3 being problematic (unless you wanted 16-bit color, and had more than 16MB RAM, and were still running a VLB card from the '90s... but I digress) but 3DFX sure was tongue
As for Redhat... Yeah. likewise. I went from Slackware to Redhat, then straight to "screw this, I'll roll my own" with LFS.

#37 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] No audio on Excalibur through pipewire on KDE wayland » 2025-08-23 03:36:37

Damn, this is so stereotypical "old coot too busy living in the past and basking in ancient glories to notice the house burning down around them" it'd be outright hilarious, if it weren't so tragic.

Go on then, ban the uppity kids from "your" lawn. If you're so keen to drive user count to zero, might as well make it quick. For the love of dog, at least quit with the endless "In my day..." sanctimonious preaching.

#38 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] No audio on Excalibur through pipewire on KDE wayland » 2025-08-22 18:47:26

Given prize exhibits a:

sub-human mutation

and b:

disgusting human being

What, exactly, makes you think I have any desire to further engage with you? You are a site admin, and this is the example you set? How repulsive.

Are you aware that this very forum was one of my many contributions to devuan?

Are you aware that I care not one iota? Spinning up a forum isn't rocket science, nor is it particularly commendable if the intent is to run it like a tin-pot dictatorship for one's own aggrandizement, with a regular side of crotchety spite and patronising babble.

Or did you think "go and ralph's pessimistic arguing club" was just a silly joke?

I'm quite happy to help out here where there are technical questions, or chat where there is mildly amusing (and mostly sane) conversation to be had. But you? You I am done dealing with.

Ed. You want to know how this looks from the outside? From the point of view of the "never enough devs" who you will never do anything but drive away? Go read radiatedradio's comment on the previous page.

#39 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] No audio on Excalibur through pipewire on KDE wayland » 2025-08-22 17:56:11

Phew, so this is the go and ralph pessimisim club after all. Had me going for a bit there.

#40 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 17:04:14

Oh, we're at untestable unfalsifiable circular-"logic" already. That didn't take long.
I mean I'd explain why that whole line of argument is one big logical fallacy, but why bother, you're not going to listen.
I could also explain some of the well-documented flaws in human hearing and perception of sound, but that would also be wasted, wouldn't it?

#41 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 16:42:47

greenjeans wrote:

I think I still have an old Simpson voltmeter in one of my boxes of old stuff, circa early 80's

Ahh, even better... Vintage test equipment.
Beware, that disease is catching and never entirely curable. Voltmeters are particularly pernicious, being simultaneously easy to obtain and easy to justify. Scopes and signal generators are safer - since they take up more space, it's slightly easier to notice when you have enough only need one more. big_smile

Simpson did make nice gear, and I have just realised I don't have any. I'll be right ba...

Ahem, my current "old faithful" bench meter is one of these... And yes, I have used the 5Kv range, and I am still alive. wink

Project #379 (currently occupying said bench) is to fix the '90s Hameg (yeah, I know, kinda "meh") 40MHz storage scope I got for a song. Digital overlay and analog side don't agree on what range channel B is on, and that's some in-house shift-register data-bus malarkey that looks deliciously entertaining to figure out. Also I'm pretty sure it's the last "hybrid" storage scope with a real tube...
But I digress. I wouldn't want to annoy the locals (more), with off-topic not-conspiracy non-whinging now would I.

Oh, too late. Here they come for amateur philosophy hour. roll

#43 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 16:06:48

greenjeans wrote:

He doesn't even have a basic understanding of human hearing Steve

Righty ho then, seems I'm rolling rocks up Mt. Kruger again. Guess I'll stop now before this gets out of hand.

Shame, audio engineering is a bit of a hobby of mine. Mostly old-school analog stuff mind, but here I was hoping for a real debate and maybe an excuse to unpack some of my pets test equipment. Nevermind.

igorzwx wrote:

Do think that your brain can be deceptive?

I see... When rational arguments don't go your way, appeal to, what, garden-shed psychology? philosophy? No thanks.

#44 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 15:40:34

Of course they aren't. You've never actually conducted a double-blind a/b test, have you?

#45 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 15:30:59

If you think your ears are a reliable instrument, you might be happy reading tea leaves.

I'm not going to argue this, you'll just keep trotting out the old "if you can't hear the difference" line until we both die of old age.
I've been there before, with many an audiophool convinced that the special crystal power lead stands or $8000 speaker cables they got conned into buying make a real difference. All that happens is abandonment of any kind of scientific method for a bunch of feely-woo about "warmness" "depth" "clarity" and other intangible unquantifiable nonsense. Sound reproduction is not magic, and any parameter thereof that matters can be measured and quantified.

Further, it can be measured and quantified with the kind of equipment that costs very little these days - so you are either intentionally omitting measurements because you know they won't prove your point, or you lack the expertise to conduct them. Either way, I call shenanigans. The burden of proof is on the one making the bold claims, and right now that is you.

#46 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 14:50:41

You mean I trust objective measurement over subjective opinion? Damn sure I do.

#47 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 14:27:28

igorzwx wrote:

It is not so difficult to install fftrate, configure is properly, and check whether you hear the difference.

It's not so difficult to hook up a scope and show us the difference either. If the ALSA defaults really sound that bad, it should be quite obvious on even rummage-sale grade 10MHz gear.

igorzwx wrote:

If you don't hear the difference, you might be perfectly happy with pipewire.

"If you don''t hear the difference it doesn't mean my gizmo isn't working, you must just not have golden ears" is the standard line of audiophool snake-oil salesmen everywhere, always has been.

greenjeans wrote:

Well, it's not a pain in the ass if you don't need/want multiple sound sources playing at the same time.

Yeah, I know. I've got an old Pi with a DAC hat in my lounge that's set up that way. It only runs MPD, so who cares about stream mixing. vOv

greenjeans wrote:

Also, you lose system beeps altogether if you're running pure alsa, but weirdly enough if you have music already playing, you'll get the system beeps, lol.

That's... Interesting. I've talked to people having strange issues with the system bell before, and never really figured out what was going on. That might be a useful clue the next time it comes up.

#48 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 14:21:23

At this point I'm pretty sure, like ~80% of the people on this board, Igor is just trying to find some big conspiracy to sound "in the know" about.
I mean, this is a thread about audio quality, right? I don't see any FFTs or oscilloscope captures, blind-test results, or anything else that could even vaguely be called "evidence".... Just assertions that "someone" is pulling the wool over our eyes and this "magic sauce" (aka using a different resampler plugin) fixes a bunch of supposed "deceptions".

#49 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 14:08:27

As they say in the industry, 'scope shots (showing resampling artefacts) or it didn't happen. You're writing guides on "bit-perfect" "audiophile" sound, so I assume you have a decent 'scope handy to test your findings, right?
Alternatively, feel free to point out the lines in the kernel sources that do this. I've looked (a long time ago, to be fair), have you?

#50 Re: Off-topic » Thoughts on Pipewire » 2025-08-22 13:56:54

With or without dmix, ALSA is always resampling everything to 48kHz

Oh really:

$ $ aplay -D hw:PCH -c2 ./16_96k_PerfectTest.wav
Playing WAVE './16_96k_PerfectTest.wav' : Signed 16 bit Little Endian, Rate 96000 Hz, Stereo

$ cat /proc/asound/card0/pcm0p/sub0/hw_params
access: RW_INTERLEAVED
format: S16_LE
subformat: STD
channels: 2
rate: 96000 (96000/1)
period_size: 12000
buffer_size: 48000

96kHz in, 96kHz out. Where's this 48kHz bit you're talking about?

Maybe you mean this?

$ aplay -D plug:dmix -c2 ./16_96k_PerfectTest.wav
Playing WAVE './16_96k_PerfectTest.wav' : Signed 16 bit Little Endian, Rate 96000 Hz, Stereo

$ cat /proc/asound/card0/pcm0p/sub0/hw_params
access: MMAP_INTERLEAVED
format: S32_LE
subformat: STD
channels: 2
rate: 48000 (48000/1)
period_size: 1024
buffer_size: 16384

That's dmix doing dmix things, and if you don't configure it otherwise your default ALSA device will be using dmix.

fool semi-deaf users... simulate... deception

Yes yes, there always has to be some conspiracy in here doesn't there. Well, if it makes you feel better, you believe whatever you want dude.

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