The officially official Devuan Forum!

You are not logged in.

#251 Re: Other Issues » Seriously? » 2023-11-26 12:11:13

okkvltisch wrote:

this is basically Debian Testing

And right there in the name is it's intended purpose - testing. If you want to run it as a daily driver that's up to you, but sooner or later you will encounter bugs, the productive response to which is filing a bug report.

okkvltisch wrote:

internet access just being removed????

Since when is networkmanager == "internet access"?  lol
There are plenty of other ways to configure networking, and networkmanager is not even remotely a critical package.

If this occured in a stable release it might be problematic, but you should be comfortable with manual network setup (among other troubleshooting / testing tasks) if you're going to run testing or unstable.

#252 Re: DIY » So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland? » 2023-11-26 04:29:10

alphalpha wrote:

why is wayland bad

It's not that it's "bad" per-se, it's that adoption is being aggressively pushed while it's still rather buggy, lacks a number of features people are used to from X11, and only really works properly at all with GNOME sessions.
Much the same as we saw with udev, dbus and systemd, and as we're now seeing with pipewire... which are (totally coincidentally I'm sure) products of the same group of interconnected organisations.

alphalpha wrote:

what is the problem with gtk3?

What used to be the preferred flexible and DE agnostic FOSS widget toolkit is now the GNOME toolkit, where stable ABIs and non-gnome use cases are given precious little consideration (and in some cases actively discouraged, see somewhat infamous "Decide if you are a GNOME app or not" quote and obnoxious attitude given to KDE devs trying to make GTK apps fit in on plasma), and in spite of solid user demand customisation and theming options are removed to protect the "GNOME brand" and the holy HIG.
On top of that, it's big and it's slow.

#253 Re: Other Issues » a question on hidden dependencies » 2023-11-24 13:31:25

durham wrote:

The package libdbus-glib is dependency of firefox-esr, according to apt-get.

No,

durham wrote:
  libdbus-glib-1-2

is a dependency of firefox-esr.

durham wrote:

So how does firefox successfully pull in a dependency that does not exist?

It doesn't. libdbus-glib-1-2 is a perfectly valid package:

$ apt show libdbus-glib-1-2
Package: libdbus-glib-1-2
Version: 0.110-6
Priority: optional
Section: oldlibs
Source: dbus-glib
Maintainer: Utopia Maintenance Team <pkg-utopia-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org>
Installed-Size: 216 kB
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.14), libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.9.14), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.40)
Homepage: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/DBusBindings
Tag: role::shared-lib
Download-Size: 73.0 kB
APT-Manual-Installed: no
APT-Sources: http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera/main amd64 Packages

IOW,

durham wrote:

a question on hidden dependencies

s/hidden/mistyped/g
FTFY.

#254 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Strategies to deal with .xsession-errors » 2023-11-22 12:36:34

aluma wrote:

Logs should be disabled by default, and the user should be able to enable a specific one when setting up.

I disagree, logs are extremely useful and shouldn't use much disk space... So long as they're not full of almost-always-irrelevant warning and debug spam, which release builds of well written software shouldn't be generating to begin with.

IME most of that comes from GUI toolkits and DE related components, because for some reason leaving debug messages on and not actually fixing warnings that appear on pretty much every system is what you do when writing GUI applications. Out of sight, out of mind. roll

The session manager / .xsession-errors is really just doing what it's supposed to do, catching stdout/stderr that would otherwise go into the void. Not X's fault if your apps won't STFU. tongue
Imagine if CLI apps barfed all over stderr like that, you'd never get anything done.

aluma wrote:

why do I need the default "man" pages in 37 languages?

You don't, which is why localepurge has been a thing for decades.

stopAI wrote:
aluma wrote:

This is Trinity's log management tool, a legacy of KDE.

Very nice tool.

FWIW, kdebugsettings still exists in current KDE/Plasma, and has a bunch of new features to boot (custom rules & groups, load/save settings etc.).
IIRC there's no obvious menu entry for it though, so you need to call it from a terminal or krunner.

#255 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Upgrading a video card » 2023-11-22 02:45:17

You don't need X or a working GUI of any kind to install GPU drivers. X also has a generic VESA driver that will work with just about anything, though IMO it's more hassle than just installing the right driver from the CLI.

Worst case if the existing driver doesn't work with a new card is you disable KMS (i.e. nomodeset and co.) and/or blacklist the module and reinstall drivers from the console.

I've been through many generations of nvidia hardware on GNU/Linux (at least as far back as NV40/GT6xxx), and I don't think I've ever bothered to "prepare" anything. Just swap it in, reboot, and if X doesn't load then see about fixing the drivers.

#256 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Upcoming browser changes » 2023-11-22 02:27:45

Micronaut wrote:

Does it look like there will be a push by major players in the Linux community to force it to be implemented as we have seen with systemd?

There is already talk of disabling X11 session support (at least by default) in GNOME... But then that's to be expected, it's GNOME. IMO Redhat/systemd/freedesktop/GNOME might as well be considered the same enitity at this point, and the NIH attitude is strong over there.

Micronaut wrote:

There doesn't seem to be any justification for it, again, like systemd, so I hope the "if it ain't broke" principle will hold here, as well. X works fine for any ordinary use cases.

The justification is that X is old, complicated, contains a lot of functionality nobody uses any more, and as usual writing shiny new code is more interesting than fixing and/or maintaining old code.

Personally I'll consider wayland when wayland reaches feature-parity with X, and the majority of applications I need work properly with it. Right now it's still full of bugs and several important features aren't even standardised in the protocol yet... So I expect everyone except GNOME to maintain X support for at least a while longer.

Micronaut wrote:

Given that it is becoming a standard like Internet Exploder used to be, I do sometimes have to use Chrome to access certain sites.

And the only reason it's become (past tense BTW) a "standard" is because people just accept they have to have it for "certain sites" that only work properly with it, instead of complaining to the webmaster concerned that their site is broken... Much the same as in the bad old days of IE.

As of now we really only have one independent (two if you count opera, but that's not FOSS) modern browser engine left that isn't based on (and largely slave to the whims of) google chrome. If you don't like what google is doing, I suggest you use Firefox instead.

Micronaut wrote:

Will the Chromium 'unbranded' version also be forced to follow this new standard? Or could they possibly keep hooks for both types of extensions?

Chromium is really just the open-source build of chrome, without google's proprietary bits. Little else is changed, and I expect they'll follow very close behind everything chrome does.
Some of the more extensive chrome modifications (brave etc.) might hold out a bit longer, but IMO it'll only be a matter of time before everything based on chrome/chromium is manifest v3 only.

Firefox might go down a similar path of course, but as of now that's still a "might", as opposed to chrome/chromium's "will, early next year". Pick your poison.

#257 Re: Devuan » The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you? » 2023-11-14 02:32:37

golinux wrote:

It concentrates power at the top which is the whole point of infantilizing users.

I know. See edit rant above. tongue

On BSOD in particular, among the many things that drove me to switch to GNU/Linux in the first place were the powerful always-available CLI and the verbose, informative error handling. Both of which are apparently in the process of being deprecated, by people whose motivations are suspect to say the least.

#258 Re: Devuan » The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you? » 2023-11-14 02:09:27

Of bigger concern to me is the implied attitude - VTs and text interfaces are "archaic" (and need to be explained to contributors to an init system), and the way to present system errors is with QR codes.

The dumbing down of interfaces and infantilisation of users is a trend that needs to stop. It's systemic in everything coming out of redhat / freedesktop these days, and IMO it's as much an attack on software freedom as their concurrent push toward weak(or non)-copyleft open-source licences is.

With software there are only two possibilities: either the users control the program or the program controls the users. If the program controls the users, and the developer controls the program, then the program is an instrument of unjust power.
-- Richard M Stallman

I see little functional difference between the developer controlling the software because the source is withheld, and the developer controlling the software because it's intentionally designed to be difficult for the user to understand, and crucial aspects of it's functioning are hidden behind abstraction layers and "user freindly" interfaces.
Likewise, if the user doesn't understand the software (or more to the point, isn't meant to), the user cannot control it.

Learned helplessness is where we're headed with our current trajectory of big tech monopolies, disposable subscription gadgets, toddler-oriented interfaces and and inscrutable AI "assistants", and helpless users are at the mercy of big technology corporations and the developers they employ.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
-- Frank Herbert, Dune

#259 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Strategies to deal with .xsession-errors » 2023-11-11 11:55:39

stopAI wrote:

The problem is that when you restart the session the symbolic link will be replaced back by a regular file and will start to grow again. To avoid this you must add the following lines to the .bashrc

Or just use a bind mount as already suggested above, as it won't have this problem to begin with.

OTOH, if you don't want anything written to it, why not just 'chattr +i .xsession-errors'? That's kind of what the immutable attribute is for.

#260 Devuan » The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you? » 2023-11-09 02:08:20

steve_v
Replies: 42

Figured I had better crosspost this gem from an also somewhat interesting thread on the Gentoo board, for a good laugh if nothing else.
Couple of choice hot-takes:

Following Poettering's guidance, I created this bsod tool.

I have to modify it to take over the entire screen, turn it blue, and display the QR code.

...

in case you wonder what a VT is, it's this archaic textual display logic that the linux kernel uses to do early boot logging before wayland/x11 take over

I wish it were parody... But apparently this really is the level some systemd contributors are operating on, and aping even the most inane and idiotic windows "features" is not only given consideration, this stinky floater has actually been merged.

If it were me reviewing that pull, I would have laughed my arse off, and followed up with a flat "no".

Long may Devuan (and other sane distributions of note) continue to not package or otherwise encourage this amateur-hour circus.

#261 Re: DIY » So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland? » 2023-11-08 11:15:27

Camtaf wrote:

we still have an unadulterated command line available

We did, until somebody decided to remove console scrollback... A change which royally pisses me off, because I use the console TTYs on a daily basis, and now I have to add screen or tmux to the mix just to get a usable interface.

On top of that nonsense, the systemd crowd is currently pushing to have no console TTYs at all by default, because "the gui should be the primary interface" roll
Thankfully the latter madness has not (yet) infected the few remaining "old school" distros that actually offer meaningful choice beyond "systemd + GNOME + wayland + pipewire, or GTFO".

On the abomination that is GTK3 (and CSDs), this patchset goes a fair way to making it at least somewhat usable and removing the worst of the mobile-UI junk.
It's still bad mind, but if the choice is between sticking to unmaintained GTK2 stuff or eviscerating GTK3 with mushrooms and an ever-growing list of my own "revert $idiotic_change" patches, I guess I'll take the latter. Grudgingly.

#262 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Need a network guru! Question about 5 port switches and such » 2023-10-28 06:07:02

Dutch_Master wrote:

here's a small selection in various price ranges

Also: Literally anything that can run GNU/Linux (or BSD) and has 2 or more ethernet ports, in combination with a switch one already has.
Depending on what junk you have laying about (I'm currently running a PCEngines APU2 as a router, but I used an old Pentium III SFF desktop for many years prior), that could mean price ~ zero with features and flexibility superior to an off the shelf router.

More generally, details on the connection probably matter here. Pretty much any fibre connection will require a router of some kind, and some require VLAN or PPPoE support on the router as well.
The sort of works for one machine bit inclines me to think it's straight IPv4 DHCP in this case, though it may also be using VLANs for traffic shaping.

#263 Re: Installation » Multiboot help » 2023-10-24 04:40:35

WDstudios wrote:

I have to let Devuan lock me out of Win7 and then hope I can fix it later?

Could be much worse, the Windows installer will simply overwrite any other bootloader without prompting, and you'll need to fix it manually from a live distro.
In other news, so long as you have appropriate bootable recovery media (once known as a floppy disk with a linux bootloader on it, now a live distro on CD or USB drive), you're not "locked out" of anything.

The x86 boot process is complicated and somewhat fragile, and so (IMO anyway) is it's successor UEFI. This is why most proprietary operating systems offer the user no opportunity whatsoever to screw it up, by simply assuming there is only one OS installed.

Grub is at least nice enough to give you some control over it's installation and options to boot multiple operating systems, though in absence of os-prober by default you will need to explicitly enable / configure the latter.
In any case, if you want multiboot, you'd do well to do at least some basic reading on how the boot process works and have a live USB handy to fix things if you need to.

FWIW I think the decision to disable os-prober by default is kinda silly, but it's not a big deal to re-enable it or otherwise add entries to the bootloader after the fact. There are comments in the relevant configuration files, and the documentation (either online or via man and info) is extensive.

WDstudios wrote:

ESP? Extrasensory perception?

Somewhat obviously, no. EFI System Partition, only relevant if you are using (U)EFI boot.

#264 Re: Off-topic » Is systemd still bad in 2023? » 2023-10-24 04:05:35

Let us also not overlook the fact that systemd and pretty much everything else coming out of redhat/freedesktop et-al these days is under weak-copyleft or non-copyleft licences (e.g. LGPL or MIT).
If you want to speculate on plausible, non-technical motivation for systemd aggressively absorbing so much functionality previously provided by independent projects, look no further than circumventing the inconvenient (for redhat and their corporate overlords) restrictions in the GPL (especially GPL3) regarding linking non-free code against GPL code and its distribution as part of commercial products.

IOW, is it really "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish", or more "Embrace, Corrupt, Sell"? I expect only time will tell.

#265 Re: DIY » [SOLVED] message from the grub underworld » 2023-10-22 13:19:18

@czeekaj Any particular reason for necrobumping a 1.5 year old solved question with something almost entirely unrelated?

@torquebar As HoaS already commented, this is almost certainly due to os-prober using the unstable /dev/sdx names rather than UUIDs.
There are bug reports about it going back over a decade, with the conclusion that UUID support in the kernel can't be assumed, so os-prober shouldn't use it.
Then again os-prober is really just a bunch of shell scripts, so it shouldn't be particularly hard to change if it annoys you enough to do so.

#266 Re: Other Issues » malware on devuan repos or false positives? » 2023-10-22 12:55:36

TOR is not a "MitM" defence, it's an anonymous routing network. Thrashing said network with generic bulk traffic that has no need for anonymisation achieves nothing but making the network slower for everyone.
Since I'm running a TOR node, that means your "good idea" is potentially wasting my bandwidth.

APT already has release signing and package checksums, specifically to combat MitM attacks. If you want in-transit encryption as well, use an HTTPS mirror, that's what they're for.
If you're extra paranoid you can always verify packages certificates and signing keys manually, but unless you're inside a network that blocks normal access to the repository mirrors or have a pressing need to hide the fact that you are running Devuan, using TOR is just stupid.

Seriously, the amount of ridiculous tinfoil-hat "security" misadvice floating about these days is just tiring. Stop already.

#267 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Which is the correct network stack for Devuan? » 2023-10-22 07:52:41

Danielsan wrote:

if I don't block IPv6 I can't get an IPv4 address to ssh into the SBC, and I wonder which packages I might have missing.

The only thing you really "need" for a static-ip ethernet connection is a working NIC driver and ifconfig or ip (from net-tools and iproute2 respectively).
When you say "get an IP" I assume you mean over DHCP? If so, I suggest trying with a hand-configured or ifupdown managed static IP (i.e. dump networkmanagermangler) first, then moving on to manually invoking whatever DHCP client you're using with some appropriate --verbose or --debug flags to see what's going on.

Frankly, other than for laptops or tablets that move between wireless networks constantly (and even then only if you must have a shiny GUI) I find networkmangler more aggravation than it's worth. IME ditching it is step one in any network troubleshooting.

czeekaj wrote:

packages like wpa_supplicant, iw

Are relevant only for wireless connections, and the former only for WPA encrypted wireless connections specifically.

#268 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Which is the correct network stack for Devuan? » 2023-10-21 18:12:56

Danielsan wrote:

which are the mandatory ones?

Mandatory? This is GNU/Linux we're talking about here, there is no "mandatory" beyond a kernel, init and shell.
That said you'll almost certainly want net-tools, netbase and ifupdown. Probably a dhcp client of some kind as well.
The rest is up for debate, and heavily influenced by your choice of desktop and the services you intend to run and/or connect to.

#269 Re: Other Issues » malware on devuan repos or false positives? » 2023-10-20 00:11:51

xinomilo wrote:

a simple question about reported malware in contents, doesn't get any official feedback
what's up?

Why should blindingly obvious false-positives from third-party software warrant an "official" response?
Do you expect official comment on bugs and deficiencies in every other random piece of software in existence as well, or is it just bugs in generic "anti malware" heuristics that warrant panic from everyone but the purveyor of such patterns?

This kind of pants-on-fire response to generic-pattern false-positives is an infuriatingly common waste of developer time, from people freaking out about one-man github projects tripping microsofts "uncommon software" filters, to anti-malware scanners trying to quarantine each other's pattern definitions, to generic matches on innocuous text files. It's all equally bullshit, and all a problem that needs to be dealt with by the anti-malware vendor (or an end-user whitelist), not the innocent party being smeared by these defective tools.

#270 Re: Other Issues » malware on devuan repos or false positives? » 2023-10-18 23:11:34

Is this a troll, or are we really asking if gzipped package digests are malware?
The mind boggles. roll

#271 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » How to disable IPv6? » 2023-10-17 14:39:20

Danielsan wrote:

it would be cool understand how to prevent ipv6 to be loaded.

If you don't want ipv6 support, recompile your kernel without ipv6 support, obviously.
Otherwise, disable it as already explained.

#272 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Presentation and question about DoT » 2023-10-16 08:55:14

IMO your best option is to run unbound as a local caching resolver. This is what OpenBSD does, and configuration examples for such should be easy enough to adapt.
Pretty sure dnsmasq can do this as well, if you prefer it.

#273 Re: Other Issues » What ISO for an Any-OS-Boot HDD? » 2023-10-07 09:55:25

alexkemp wrote:

I cannot find Devuan on that page. However, it is an interesting option, even if it means that I have yet another new app to learn from scratch.

Camtaf wrote:

Use a Ventoy pendrive, if you need multiple Linux distros - https://www.ventoy.net/en/index.html

FWIW current versions of YUMI use Ventoy under the customised menus anyway, all it really adds is the windows-based GUI setup utility. Whatever config it uses for Debian will almost certainly work for Devuan as well.

On the OP, if the intent is to gather evidence from a system (and we're not talking about professional clean-room hardware-level data recovery, which is well beyond the scope of a livecd/usb), the only thing the live system really needs to do is aquire a block-for-block (i.e. dd) image of the target disk in a verifiable manner, without mounting it r/w or otherwise tampering with it's contents.
Actual analysis can then be done on the image (or more likely a copy of it), with a conventional install that has access to any additional tools one might need.

Personally I tend to use PartedMagic (not a free download, but cheap enough or readily available through the usual back-channels) rescatux or clonezilla live for disk recovery and imaging, but really anything with decent hardware detection and dd and/or ddrescue preinstalled would do. That's pretty much any distro's livecd these days.

If I was motivated enough to go outside in the cold I'd check what exactly is on my recovery/utility drive, but if memory serves it's a yumi ventoy install with all of the above (multiple versions to accommodate ancient hardware), plus the Gentoo based fork/clone of systemrescuecd (I forget what it's called), UBCD, a couple of versions of hiren's boot disk, and install images for Devuan, Debian, Windows XP, Windows 10 and FreeDOS.

Ed. If you're looking for a live distro specifically geared for system forensics, CAINE might be worth a look. I haven't gone any further than a quick tire-kick in a VM as yet, but it looks like it does what it says on the tin and comes with pretty much every tool anyone could ever want.
It's Ubuntu based (unfortunately) and kinda slow, but I'll probably be adding it to my collection.

#274 Re: ARM Builds » [SOLVED] Vulnerability in Mousepad? Unable to drag, resize, or lower in cwm » 2023-09-23 01:01:19

Did you honestly expect anyone to read that wall of barely-coherent rant, or were you just thinking aloud to yourself?
This board some days roll

Ed. No, wait, it's most days. Guess that's why I don't bother trying to be helpful here, far too much crazy for my taste.

#275 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Devuan 5.0 VLC cannot play some mp4 files well, many mosaics. » 2023-08-26 02:13:37

HelenSmith wrote:

use command line to change the Kaffeine settings?

I haven't used kaffeine in about 500 years, but the bottom of the readme provides some hints WRT passing options to libvlc and/or setting the VDPAU driver.

Board footer

Forum Software