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#1 2018-04-30 20:15:16

Ron
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Registered: 2018-04-22
Posts: 99  

Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

Will the time ever come where systemd will become an even bigger entwined mess (than it is now) that Devuan would simply have to no longer be based on Debian, but become completely independent? Or for any other reason? I'm mostly just asking for curiosity's sake.  smile

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#2 2018-04-30 21:11:57

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,181  

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

At some point we may have to clone the debian repos onto our infrastructure to preserve them from further systemd intrusion.  Then we would be independent from debian.  But pulling that off would require an influx of volunteers with ninja skills to handle the workload of keeping packages from upstream current.

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#3 2018-05-01 10:45:38

Panopticon
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Registered: 2018-01-27
Posts: 106  

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

^ if systemd intrusion goes full scale entwined mess they may as well just call it systemd or lennarts linux instead.

Last edited by Panopticon (2018-05-01 10:51:50)

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#4 2018-05-01 11:04:16

devuser
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Registered: 2018-04-30
Posts: 176  

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

golinux wrote:

At some point we may have to clone the debian repos onto our infrastructure to preserve them from further systemd intrusion.  Then we would be independent from debian.  But pulling that off would require an influx of volunteers with ninja skills to handle the workload of keeping packages from upstream current.

Pretty much this. The huge amount of packages debian has (20k+?) is simply prohibitive for any smaller distribution to just simply take over. Even Ubuntu customizes only a small percentage of packages.

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#5 2018-05-27 01:28:59

mt12345
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From: Europe
Registered: 2018-01-26
Posts: 9  
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Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

Ron wrote:

Will the time ever come where systemd will become an even bigger entwined mess (than it is now) that Devuan would simply have to no longer be based on Debian, but become completely independent? Or for any other reason? I'm mostly just asking for curiosity's sake.  smile

Systemd itself is not a mess. It's only Debian where it got totally messed up.
Fedora or Arch distributions don't really need systemd-free versions because systemd in these distros are implemented properly.
So, the chances are, one day project Devuan will no longer be needed.
I use whatever system works for me, for the time of writing this it's Devuan and (systemd-based) Archlinux.

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#6 2018-05-27 07:40:55

devuser
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Registered: 2018-04-30
Posts: 176  

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

mt12345 wrote:

Systemd itself is not a mess. It's only Debian where it got totally messed up.
Fedora or Arch distributions don't really need systemd-free versions because systemd in these distros are implemented properly.
So, the chances are, one day project Devuan will no longer be needed.
I use whatever system works for me, for the time of writing this it's Devuan and (systemd-based) Archlinux.

Well, what is a mess is quite subjective. It might be OK for you but for other people it isn't. I don't want to use it because in my opinion it's horrible by design (it's a lennart design after all - look at all the other stuff he did and i am quite sure you'll notice a pattern...). It interferes with my fundamental reasons for using Linux and that won't change no matter how it's packaged. Tons of complexity added for little to no gain is simply not my cup of tea.

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#7 2018-05-27 09:23:47

yeti
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Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 73  

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

mt12345 wrote:

Systemd itself is not a mess.

Maybe.

I expect systemd and non-systemd OSes to diverge over the years, so that we even will have an own name for the new breed. An then all will be ok. Unixlike OSes will stay being what we used to love in pre systemd days and systemd based OSes will have an own digitope not interferring with the unix universe.

All current aggressions are side effects of the divorce like situation we have now while the community splits into systemd lovers and unix lovers.

Give it some time... peace will return... breathe... ommmmmmPtimism!!!

Last edited by yeti (2018-05-27 09:25:09)


"Stay OmmmMMMmmmPtimistic!" — yeti
"Isch ahbe fertisch!" — Sisyphos
"Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority." — The 2nd Doctor
"No Source — No Go!" — yeti

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#8 2018-05-27 09:56:33

mt12345
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From: Europe
Registered: 2018-01-26
Posts: 9  
Website

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

I agree systemd design is bad. It's against unix philosophy actually.
I'm just trying to point out the fact that Debian developers sc***ed up implementing it and in effect Debian users started to hate Mr Poettering who's responsible for systemd design but not for Debian devs poor job!

My favourite distro is Slackware, simple and straightforward, free from systemd, pulseaudio and other nonsense but unfortunately I can't run my favourite  programs on it.

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#9 2018-05-27 12:09:07

devuser
Member
Registered: 2018-04-30
Posts: 176  

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

mt12345 wrote:

My favourite distro is Slackware, simple and straightforward, free from ... pulseaudio

Yep, that's kinda what i ment by pattern wink It's not like his other inventions aren't awful and unix hating but pulseaudio is a good example. For the average user there is hardly any advantage over ALSA, it took forever (and another maintainer) to become somewhat stable and those who might welcome the additional features (professional audio users) won't touch it since it's technically useless for them. Pure lennart ware.

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#10 2018-05-27 12:26:59

mt12345
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From: Europe
Registered: 2018-01-26
Posts: 9  
Website

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

I didnt know pulseaudio is Lennart's
LOL

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#11 2018-05-27 13:02:23

devuser
Member
Registered: 2018-04-30
Posts: 176  

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

mt12345 wrote:

I didnt know pulseaudio is Lennart's
LOL

Yeah funny isn't it? big_smile The guy has quite a bit of a track record. Ever cursed at any of the *kits and their crazy configs hidden away in some awkward directory that certainly isn't /etc? Yes? Now you know who to thank for that wink

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#12 2018-05-27 13:15:31

siva
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Registered: 2018-01-25
Posts: 151  
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Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

mt12345 wrote:

Systemd itself is not a mess. It's only Debian where it got totally messed up.
Fedora or Arch distributions don't really need systemd-free versions because systemd in these distros are implemented properly.

lmfao.

See also: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652 (I'm guessing you won't read it.)

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#13 2018-05-27 17:10:56

mt12345
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From: Europe
Registered: 2018-01-26
Posts: 9  
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Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

siva wrote:
mt12345 wrote:

Systemd itself is not a mess. It's only Debian where it got totally messed up.
Fedora or Arch distributions don't really need systemd-free versions because systemd in these distros are implemented properly.

lmfao.


Yes you are right, systemd IS a mess.
But 99.99% Archers didn't switch to OpenRC, and remaining 0.01% did it because they HEARD systemd is pure evil.
And I bet they heard it from Debian users.

See also: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652 (I'm guessing you won't read it.)

Actually I did read it.
Very good post, confirming what I mentioned before: Debian camp screwed up.
I don't care what NASA uses nowadays, back in the day they chose YellowDogLinux, the worst distro ever for PPC machines.

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#14 2018-05-27 18:03:07

siva
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Registered: 2018-01-25
Posts: 151  
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Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

mt12345 wrote:

99.99% Archers didn't switch to OpenRC, and remaining 0.01% did it because they HEARD systemd is pure evil...I don't care what NASA uses nowadays, back in the day they chose YellowDogLinux, the worst distro ever for PPC machines.

This seems awfully familiar...oh, right.

dasein wrote:

Casual users and hobbyists probably won't care.

Archers have always had a tendency to go with the flow and whatever performs best; their culture is a nonsequitur because their goals are oriented with that mindset.  Debian users' attitudes towards systemd range between apathetic and complicit, and there's a good reason: most of the professionals have fled to other projects, including Devuan.  Debian's implementation of systemd is fine, and I recommend dropping by their community to test your beliefs about systemd, otherwise I'm going to [continue to] assume that you're just trolling ours. 

As far as this community is concerned, it's more about maintaining software choice, even if that choice means a derivative of the mothership.  Systemd is already a hard dependency in many programs, and that trend will probably continue if no one does anything about it.  If intrusive software is properly configured, it's still intrusive software.

Since we're on nonsequiturs, I'd like to announce that I baked potatoes in the oven for the first time ever.  They were delicious.

Last edited by siva (2018-05-27 18:10:04)

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#15 2018-05-27 18:56:08

mt12345
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From: Europe
Registered: 2018-01-26
Posts: 9  
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Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

siva wrote:

Debian's implementation of systemd is fine

So why so many complaints on #systemd Freenode from Debianers?

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#16 2018-05-27 19:06:38

siva
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Registered: 2018-01-25
Posts: 151  
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Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

mt12345 wrote:

So why so many complaints on #systemd Freenode from Debianers?

Depends on the community you frequent, I guess; thanks for sharing that, as I rarely use IRC.  I was thinking of the "official" forums (FDN).  The attitude is implicitly pro-choice so long as Debian keeps other avenues open and doesn't completely restrict init choice.  A lot of users there are renowned for derivates that use sysv or systemd and usually get along; the point is choice.

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#17 2018-05-27 19:09:43

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,181  

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

siva wrote:

. . .I rarely use IRC.

OT: Hoping you'll change that behavior.  Come play with us!

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#18 2018-05-27 19:19:52

siva
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Registered: 2018-01-25
Posts: 151  
Website

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

OT: Hoping you'll change that behavior.  Come play with us!

I just need to sit down and invest four brain cells into an automated way to download the logs, so I can keep up to date with the conversations.  I always seem to dip-in during dead hours sad

Last edited by siva (2018-05-27 19:21:20)

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