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#26 2018-04-15 18:06:56

Fernando Negro
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 2018-04-08
Posts: 31  

Re: contrib and non-free repositories should be disabled by default

Even if the installer would always ask, when wanting to install any piece of proprietary software, if the user wanted to do so... If the user happens to make a wrong click or key press, s/he can accidentally install non-free software against her/his will.

We already have all sorts of distros that install proprietary firmware/software without even asking the user. And, the reason why I really like Debian, is because it doesn't do anything of this sort.

(If "user-friendliness" and nonconcern for the inclusion of proprietary firmware or software are the guiding lines, then people can fork Ubuntu, for example, instead.)

Debian clearly differentiates itself from other distros for only including, in its installer - and also using, under normal conditions - Free Software. And, if the user really wants to and knows what s/he's doing, s/he can nevertheless install proprietary software her/himself.

The use of anything proprietary should always be avoided and discouraged. Since that, proprietary software is, by its own nature, always potentially dangerous (ex: https://linux.slashdot.org/story/07/08/ … ox-profile).

Whenever possible, the best solution is to always substitute your components by ones for which there are free drivers and firmware (https://h-node.org/). And, when talking about laptops and other equipments that are more difficult to modify the components of, everyone can avoid all of these problems by informing her/himself first about the equipments they want before buying them.


Have no concerns with using proprietary software. Enjoy the "love" from some of this forum's administrators. And, above all, pay no attention to the fact that Dyne.org receives money from the European Commission to fulfil the latter's political projects.

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#27 2018-04-15 21:56:39

catprints
Member
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 113  

Re: contrib and non-free repositories should be disabled by default

I believe in choice. I also believe pressing the wrong key would be operator error. Not everyone can pick and choose the best hardware for running without any proprietary installations. That being said I agree 98 percent with you. 2 percent being choice.

Last edited by catprints (2018-04-15 22:04:32)


"The obstacle is the path."

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#28 2018-04-15 22:06:34

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,339  

Re: contrib and non-free repositories should be disabled by default

catprints wrote:

I believe in choice. I also believe pressing the wrong key would be operator error.

Yes to both of these statements.  Forcing non-free is as offensive as limiting its availability.  Crusaders are entitled to their opinion but  it is just that.  The choice to use or not use non-free is the USER's.  ATM, that part of the installer is being carefully scrutinized, tested and updated to ensure consistency.  As to pressing the wrong key . . . who of us hasn't done that a time or two.  You take your lumps and move on.  But it's PEBKAC, not the installer's fault.

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#29 2018-04-15 22:34:01

Fernando Negro
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 2018-04-08
Posts: 31  

Re: contrib and non-free repositories should be disabled by default

Debian's installer also allows for such a choice - with the difference being that, in order to add proprietary firmware, it's the user that has to add it her/himself to the installation - with this being a way that eliminates (1) any possibility of a mistake or of (2) the user not being (really) aware of what s/he's doing.

(I've seen it myself, with the Debian installer asking if one wants to add proprietary firmware, and then telling the user to then use an external medium to provide such firmware.)

The "downside" of Debian's approach is that, it doesn't allow for a person/novice to just install the OS without caring about such "free vs proprietary" issues. But, (ethical issues aside) for the reasons I stated, this is something that is not only not desirable, but also potentially dangerous - and, also something that (I think) the user should definitely be educated about (which is what I believe that Debian does, by not facilitating such procedure).

Last edited by Fernando Negro (2018-04-15 22:39:51)


Have no concerns with using proprietary software. Enjoy the "love" from some of this forum's administrators. And, above all, pay no attention to the fact that Dyne.org receives money from the European Commission to fulfil the latter's political projects.

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#30 2018-04-16 00:08:53

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,339  

Re: contrib and non-free repositories should be disabled by default

You do like to chew on a dry bone, don't you.  No need to keep repeating yourself in 101 variations.

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#31 2018-04-16 00:48:05

Fernando Negro
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 2018-04-08
Posts: 31  

Re: contrib and non-free repositories should be disabled by default

I was calling everyone's attention to an aspect that didn't seem to be being noticed by some (in a way, kind of correcting people, if they were implying that the alternative didn't allow for such a thing also).

And yes, I was aware that I was also repeating some arguments already presented in this thread. But, this time, it was to present them as justification for a new aspect (education) that I hadn't mentioned before.


Have no concerns with using proprietary software. Enjoy the "love" from some of this forum's administrators. And, above all, pay no attention to the fact that Dyne.org receives money from the European Commission to fulfil the latter's political projects.

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#32 2018-05-01 11:12:23

devuser
Member
Registered: 2018-04-30
Posts: 176  

Re: contrib and non-free repositories should be disabled by default

I think having non-free enabled by default in a normal installation but being optional in expert mode is a good balance. Having non technical users having jump through hoops to get their properitary hardware working is counterprodutive in my opinion. One might argue it should be optional in both install modes though. Having even novice users understand that their hardware needs non-free stuff to work and therfore having to enable non-free repos is probably not to much to ask for.

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#33 2018-05-01 15:28:58

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,339  

Re: contrib and non-free repositories should be disabled by default

We welcome a range of users here but 'novice' is not really our target audience.

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#34 2018-05-01 15:48:48

devuser
Member
Registered: 2018-04-30
Posts: 176  

Re: contrib and non-free repositories should be disabled by default

Agreed but in my opinion Devuan is a pretty good starting point for any interesed person willing to learn. As soon as they get a basic setup running (which should be easy as long as they stick to the options provided by the installer) they will slowly figure stuff out. Biggest hurdle i see is unsupported (specialy network) hardware and i'd rather have them learn on Devuan using properitary software than switch to some other distro or even loose interest.

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