A programmer should be a touch typist ?

chomwitt · 2025-07-26 16:51:07

A programmer in his blogpost Programming's Dirtiest Little Secret (2008) believes that touch typing is a base skill of a programmers .Have IT not and you'll became invisible among peers no matter how much good you are in other areas.

I raise a couple of arguments in the contrary.

1. In the AI - ultra hype era according to the ultra hype engines programming is a passed fashion. Just tell an AI agent what you want and no stress...

Cause now my computer writes faster than me
And all the jobs are owned by monopolies
@ Electric Fragments - Wasted Code by Vulcan Ivy

2. Ok . You can write-comment-talkabout your code real fast. But i think that the programming environment has become so complex that maybe you have to study really a lot before you can write code that can become integrated in distros or in various propriatery -eco-systems. And that complexity increases the drag... and the friction in the point that i think the image of a programming writing really fast doesnt strike me as very plausible image as in the past.

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-26 17:02:35)

golinux · 2025-07-26 17:32:27

Machines work for free. Humans are becoming obsolete except for replication which has long since overpopulated the planet. Humans think they are smart. Yet our fascination with shiny new toys has gotten us to where we are and we have learned absolutely nothing. Humans better get a clue or extinction will take care of us. The final solution . . . finally

SteveM · 2025-07-26 18:29:36

I must confess to not being fast at typing and never having trained. Over the years I went from the guy using 2 fingers and staring at the keyboard to being able to type much faster, but still only with a few fingers and occasional glances at the screen then back to the keyboard to keep myself aligned on the right keys. I know I should learn to type better and faster, but I don't think it is as big of an issue as he claims.

I am an embedded engineer which means I probably spend more of my time reading datasheets and schematics than I do writing code. Quite literally you need to know from reading footnote 2 of table 5.1 that pins 2 and 6 of each port have a different interrupt behavior than the other pins as described in the asynchronous interrupt section 12.2.3. I spent all day yesterday trying to figure out why a display that was working fine on the development hardware now isn't displaying correctly on the prototype. It is difficult to 120wpm your way out of those kinds of problems. I also interface frequently with mechanical engineers, best to just get out of your chair and go chat with them. I'm sure his points are valid in his niche there suspiciously close to Microsoft HQ.

chomwitt · 2025-07-26 20:27:29

@SteveM your approach and experience , althought more close to lowlevel and hardware , makes me think . Could it be that low level programming is less 'forgiving' ? Thus more caution is needed to control the behavior of a programs to the bit level . And maybe the more higher we get to the data types used and more close to the human user then a program has more space to 'play' , data types get more fuzzy and thus a programmer could have more flexibility moving away from strict formal protocols ?

And isnt it true that AI (even in it's current LLM, hyped form) exemplifies that fluent - space - where we humans feel cosy and speak with ease and speed letting our wished flow to the AI agent ?

So when a programmer uses the highest level possible of APIs (thus a level below an AI-LLM guided programming) doesnt also have a taste of that fluent programming -amenable perhaps tp bigger speeds and thus favored by touch typing skills- ?

That @LLM assisted approach reminds me also of @literate programming.
I thing the goal here was to allow a more fluent and thus speedy programming style.

So to wrap my thoughts up. It seems that speed in coding would be lost as we move more closely to fixed hardware confronting more 'friction'. And i would add that friction also comes when we move into an environment where a software's subsystem written by one must conform-align to many other subsystem's interfaces.Of course it could be argued that the programmer should just write the code!! All the difficulties i previously wrote it's not his/her job!!. But if we follow that line of thinking that that bare coding is perhaps a skill that indeed need touch-typing but the same time easily replaceable by LLM agents.

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-26 22:15:55)

greenjeans · 2025-07-26 21:24:03

I must confess to not being fast at typing and never having trained. Over the years I went from the guy using 2 fingers and staring at the keyboard to being able to type much faster, but still only with a few fingers and occasional glances at the screen then back to the keyboard to keep myself aligned on the right keys. I know I should learn to type better and faster, but I don't think it is as big of an issue as he claims.

Right there with ya buddy, two fingers still after all these years, but I must say I can do it really fast now, still can't come close to keeping up with somebody who can really type using all fingers and not having to look at the keyboard, my wife is amazing, she can sit there and look me in the face and have a conversation and be typing the whole time at about 80-90 words a minute or better, with zero mistakes.

But thinking on it, more than I type, I copy/paste. Once i've figured out a block of code, I save it and of course whole scripts and such, and when it comes time to make something new I go through those saved snippets and scripts and copy/pasta a lot of it. Then edit manually as needed. If it's something small that I know pretty well like a small shellscript with some yad dialogs, then I just sit down and start typing.

Just tell an AI agent what you want and no stress...

Show me somebody who says that, and i'll show you somebody that's never tried it. Go ahead and blithely ask an LLM to make you something and then try to run it, lol, Better back up everything first and have a spare computer on hand in case one catches on fire, lol!

They are a pretty good search engine and aggregator though, and that does save a fair amount of time.

chomwitt · 2025-07-26 21:29:42

@golinux you dont have high hopes for our future. But think maybe you are hasty. Think about slavery. From 2000 thousand years ago when Jesus start speaking against it humanity took a rather long and back and forth trip until it reached a more civilized attitude abolishing such practices. And it could be argued that that happened not from our kind souls but because Watt did his steam engine thing... So i think solution can be found and evolved to our current problems but maybe it needs more time and an enviroment where people can discuss new solutions, try and test them and apply the more successfull ones.

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-26 21:31:03)

chomwitt · 2025-07-26 21:38:47

greenjeans i aggree.That's why i stressed the -ultra hype- aspect of current LLM driven AI processes. I found also : @ AI coders think they’re 20% faster — but they’re actually 19% slower

When the devs use the AI, they’re spending less time looking for information and writing code — and instead they’re prompting the AI, they’re reviewing the AI, or they’re doing nothing while they’re waiting for the AI.

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-26 21:56:39)

chomwitt · 2025-07-26 22:10:31

I think it sould be fair to mention that i got the blog post about touch typing from another blogpost @ that was about palm pressing control key!! A minor skill that i wasnt aware that existed.

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-26 22:12:10)

golinux · 2025-07-26 22:27:27

@chomwitt . . . Sentient beings are driven mostly by desire and anger and sunk in delusion with only an occasional dollop of generosity or kindness or clarity coming to the surface. Look around the world. There are still caste systems and slavery and wars and oppression alive and well. Now not pharaohs but corporate-driven states and power-hungry madmen. "Technical progress" as the solution is not only a deluded fantasy but dangerous when those in charge are incompetent. It has ever been thus. We keep moving laterally, entranced by new toys thinking that will "fix" things yet we always end up with a rerun that's been played out since the Neanderthals walked the earth. Until WE evolve we'll keep endlessly playing out the same dynamic.

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn · 2025-07-27 08:53:36

imagine what the planet would be like today if ALL the humans on the ENTIRE planet lived like the americans(mostly referring to the _earth_destroying_level_of_consumerism_ with a side-dish of several hundred years of global murder and mayhem)

_who_would_jesus_nuke_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

_slavery_is_alive_and_well_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristian_Williams

also see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement

the whales can't wait til we're gone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_whaling

or:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY

and:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

golinux · 2025-07-27 13:48:21

@stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn . . . I found https://www.vhemt.org/ many years ago . . . possibly even before Devuan existed! I know I posted a link to that site somewhere on this forum but alas, atm my search fu sucks. The VHEMT message was not new to me. I had figured that out in the 70s and did not contribute the exploding population. We are definitely the most destructive species on the planet.

chomwitt · 2025-07-27 13:53:52

stargate thanks for the links. I found some interesting.

I think i've made a mistake .I should have posted this post in Offtopic. Can be transferred there?. Sorry.

Anyway i think the elevation of the touchtyping skill to a necessity (especially the way it was presented by it's original author) misses entirely the ergonomics and health issues side. The hands needs protection. And i forgot to mention that touch-typing could become obselete not by LLM-AI but by LLM-powered-speech assistant

I think programmers should support and try that tech . I imagine my self dictating code by voice to my computer even when my hands's nerves would become too fragile.

I propose a separate subforum for ergonomics and health issues of Devuan admins - users- programmers. The subforum would cover also accessability aspects of devuan. (elderly,disabilities etc).

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-27 14:03:19)

golinux · 2025-07-27 14:01:12

Or . . . you could turn off the machine and wander through a forest and understand that the machine is about to create an unlivable environment for our species.

chomwitt · 2025-07-27 14:10:24

golinux . Arent we humans tool-makers and thus by extension machine-makers? Isnt that the part of our nature that elevated us above dinosaurs and thus making us capable of protecting earth from meteorites and other life-extiction events? Your logic gives me Dr. Stephen Falken vibes from the film WarGames.

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-27 14:13:00)

golinux · 2025-07-27 15:33:39

Many species are tool makers. Sadly, the tools/solutions that humans create often prove to be more destructive than beneficial. We just keep bumbling along without much of a clue, following our whims (and profits) and more or less making it up as we go along. The fashions change. Tools change. Challenges change. But we never seem to learn that the solution is not OUT THERE or with the latest gizmo. The solution is internal for each and every one of us to discover.

golinux · 2025-07-27 21:11:29

chomwitt said: "I think i've made a mistake . I should have posted this post in Offtopic. Can be transferred there?. Sorry."

DONE!

chomwitt · 2025-07-27 21:22:29

golinux thanks for correcting my misplaced forum post .

As for your latest response. if you refer to the spiritual side i think you are right for the need of a spiritual awakening.

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-28 12:32:36)

chomwitt · 2025-07-27 22:02:31

Links to related blogposts:

@ Coding: It’s Just Writing by Jeff Atwood (2008)
@ We Are Typists First, Programmers Second by Jeff Atwood(2008)
@ Programming's Dirtiest Little Secret by Steve Yegge (2008)
@ Bad Keyboard Advice from Programers by Xah Lee (2011)
@ To touch or not to touch-type , pros and cons by Xeh Lee.(2022)

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-28 15:56:01)

chomwitt · 2025-07-28 12:43:41

Another argument again the importance of touch typing is that assuming the programming is a form of communication surely there is programming analogous to the blather (as to 'talk rapidly without making much sense').I've heard the argument that human (especially women) when socializing talk too much for various topics but that non-sensical talk acts as a socia-glue and it's very important (but in the social context not communicating with machinces!)

But again.. i've read stories of RMS being in nirvana codding state hacking teco and other programs in his mit ailab eden back in the 1970s where he seemingly was programming like talking to the machine.

And i think (sorry if i repeated that argument) that the idea-image of a programmer touch-typing-programming it has manager-wetdreams vibes. As a manager i would like to see my payed workforce sweat and be productive. And maybe that is the easies but perhaps the most erroneous way to judge programming productivity by expecting your programmers to touch-typing constantly like crazies.

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-28 12:48:56)

chomwitt · 2025-07-28 15:28:36

Strange i keep finding relevant info :
@ Bad Keyboard Advice from Programers by xahlee.info
@ To touch or not to touch-type , pros and cons by Xeh Lee.

Do not listen to programers for typing advice
If you are a programer, you probably have seen programers talk about keyboard, or how to press the control key.
It's all WRONG!
If you want good advice for healthy and efficient typing, ask professional data-entry clerks, not programers.

So encouraging touch-typing and bigger speeds without taking into account ergonomics could be a mistake. Meaning health considerations should atleast put a maximum time frame in which a programmer should exercise his/her touch-typing skills.
But interstingly Xeh Lee thinks that for a programmer of a blogger contrary to jobs as dataclerks it happens this :

Your whole day's keystrokes probably can be done in less than 30 minutes if you just type continuously

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-28 15:54:42)

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn · 2025-07-29 01:44:28

enjoyed Jeff Atwood's post enough to repeat the link visually accurately:

https://blog.codinghorror.com/we-are-typists-first-programmers-second/

chomwitt · 2025-07-29 08:58:49

Some comments from the J.Atwood post that offer contrary insights:

typing speed is only relevant if it obstructs your flow of thinking.

With modern IDE typing code is more like playing game, than like typing full words. You are constantly using shortcuts, choosing things from menus, and copying stuff. Also tabulation is completely different (and more important) in code, than in English (or any other language).

i’ve found that I’m more productive, when I type slower, and stops often to think about what I want to type next

So I don’t think fast typing is required for programmer. It’s rather the other way around - when somebody can’t write fast he is less probably a good programmer, because that means he probably hasn’t been programming a lot.

A good programmer won’t need to type fast since their code will be succinct and compact. it doesn’t matter if you type half as fast if your program is 4 times smaller than the fast typist’s…

In College, a professor said don’t learn to type. His reasoning was that you need you hands for your whole career and typing fast will bring on rsi, secondly by typing fast you will avoid coming up short cuts for doing repetitive tasks and being more creative.

I think you are wrong. What you are basically saying is: An artist, how can’t paint a wall very fast, will never produce nice paintings. How can this be right? Of course if the artist is exceptionally slow, he will never finish his painting - but ultimately mechanical speed is of less matter…

Code contains relatively large numbers of non-alphabet characters, which are not as easy to type.

Teaching someone to type is a lot easier than teaching someone to program effectively. What you are trying to do is to equate the entire profession to the easiest part of it. It degrades and lessens the profession to say that we are just typists.

In favor of touch-typing :

Non-typists won’t get this: typists write, while non-typists type and write. Typists don’t know they’re typing.
Would you ride with a driver who had to look at his hands every few seconds to find the wheel?

The root of it is that typing is an abstraction layer for what we’re really doing. The less barrier we have between our real task, and our conscious mind, the better.

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-29 09:10:29)

SteveM · 2025-07-29 15:57:36

Code contains relatively large numbers of non-alphabet characters, which are not as easy to type.

Yes, and code tends to not contain complete sentences. How useful is 120 wpm when typing out this random excerpt from the Linux kernel?

u64 dma_direct_get_required_mask(struct device *dev)
{
	phys_addr_t phys = (phys_addr_t)(max_pfn - 1) << PAGE_SHIFT;
	u64 max_dma = phys_to_dma_direct(dev, phys);

	return (1ULL << (fls64(max_dma) - 1)) * 2 - 1;
}

chomwitt · 2025-07-30 12:08:38

It would be interesting to learn the touch-typing skill of programmers and hackers that are wellknown. For example Dennis Ritchie ,Ken Thompson , Torvald , Stallman etc.. Also i think in the pdp era you would call that skill possibly @(4.25)touch-flipping since you had to constantly flip switches to enter a program to the memory.

Speaking of Stallman is documented the impact that hacking had in his hands and his general health. On the other hand Torvald seems he avoided serious health issues (although i remember a video of his room showing him coding standing). Maybe he was more aware of the negative consequences of such skills?

In the batch processing punchedcard era knowing that in case of error you would have to create (type) your program from start wouldnt make you very cautious and thus touchtyping would be considered maybe not so helpfull ?

The RSI argument should also be taken in consideration . There are many angles. From a personal angle i want to be able to type (assuming other input tech are not inhand) until late age. An objective like that surely would lower the ceiling of what would be acceptable touch-typing performance (from my view) .Assuming that keeping a highly touch-typing performance stresses my neuron more . On the other hand if i want to type only in my job until 60s then i could increase that performance thinking that damaged hand neurons is not a top priority..

Last edited by chomwitt (2025-07-30 16:00:02)

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A programmer should be a touch typist ?

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Re: A programmer should be a touch typist ?

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