Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

golinux · 2025-01-23 01:02:58

I'm pretty sure this is the current installer iso. Have at it!

Edit: Seems like it is now isolinux installer

greenjeans · 2025-01-23 01:08:49

No live versions in that list. No live, no dice. What I have now is far more up-to-date than that.

Last edited by greenjeans (2025-01-23 01:09:54)

ralph.ronnquist · 2025-01-23 01:11:36

Software-wise, yes; UX-wise, no, i.e. the general design principle of the debian-installer was upheld so as to essentially "look the same".

The installer is a rather small program that gets its UX appearance from the postinst scripts of the packages as they are installed. Only the inital boot is determined by the installer and thereafter the babies come with the bath water. Firstly by installing udeb packages to expand itself, and secondly deb packages to the target installation. E.g. it uses partman for the partitioning and debootstrap for setting up the base system, then especilly task-select for selecting desktop etc.

(It is significantly different from a live installer which essentially copies whatever it consists of into the installation system)

Netinstall uses the packages of the day of installation (which may be different versions from when the ISO was built) while the server and desktop variants may be used off-line to only use packages included in the isos.

EDIT: they key problem for the installer is to be able to handle "all" sorts of target systems, which recently has been any combination of legacy or UEFI bios with the ISO presented as crom or disk image over any of a range of media drives (sata, nvme, USB 1/2/3, sd-card, etc)

greenjeans · 2025-01-23 01:18:28

That's kind of what I thought, thank you Ralph for clarification.

A live system of current state-of-system for that week, is the best that I could do.

golinux · 2025-01-23 01:27:47

If you read the edit above . . . the task involves more than just making the isos. Some of the components might also need to be debugged . . .

greenjeans · 2025-01-23 01:39:12

If you read the edit above . . . the task involves more than just making the isos. Some of the components might also need to be debugged . . .

That's part of my problem, no way I can de-bug that installer.

But the current live-iso of Devuan is using Refracta-installer which has the efi-grub as default, but also includes grub-pc with the installer knowing what to do if the user chooses a legacy BIOS install with grub installed to an MBR.

Couldn't it be as simple as using that iso for a base, updating, running usr-merge, changing sources.list to excalibur, upgrading, uninstalling dupe packages (is this what dist-upgrade is supposed to do? I did it by hand).

Then a simple snapshot. And once a week update and do another snapshot. Guarantee you I wouldn't hesitate to test a liveUSB if I was just a garden-variety user looking to help out if it's easy as downloading an iso and burning it to media and taking a test-drive, might get a lot more input that way.

ETA: Well obviously that won't solve the issue of other arches, but I can do amd_64 at least. Maybe other folks could do lives of other arches.

Last edited by greenjeans (2025-01-23 01:42:47)

blackhole · 2025-01-23 08:53:44

@greenjeans, yes I understand what you're trying to do and I won't comment on that, other than to highlight the obvious difference between running services and installation size. Linux distributions have to suit a wide userbase, hence a lot is provided. Otherwise the distribution only suits one individuals use case.

********

Personally I believe Devuan spawned a lot of small derivative hobby projects early on, and not enough "core" maintainers to keep things moving. The idealogues which the project picked up along the way haven't helped the project's image or it's ability to attract new people to do the work either. Sadly we live in a world where marketing seems to count more than ever. It's about challenging perceptions.

In my view Devuan needs to promote itself better, but also some of the users of this site need to consider how their behaviour reflects on the Devuan project as a whole. We all know what systemd is about, but criticism needs to be fact basd and limited to where it is relevant. All too often I have seen "systemd is svchost" or "systemd is an MS registry" which are totally false statenents which only serve to perpetuate the stereotype of "systemd haters" as a clueless, kneejerk, lunatic fringe, unworthy of consideration.

Last edited by blackhole (2025-01-23 08:55:08)

greenjeans · 2025-01-23 20:18:37

Personally I believe Devuan spawned a lot of small derivative hobby projects early on, and not enough "core" maintainers to keep things moving

.

I'm aware, I was there and I was one of the small derivative hobby projects. I recall the community here being very welcoming to me and others like me, and our tinkering was encouraged.

And that's all i'm really talking about here, tinkering...some people might like to know if they can get rid of useless things just taking up space. I fail to see how talking about it puts Devuan in jeopardy of not being able to lure in the kind of devs needed.

I have read and seen the stuff you're talking about though, yeah some folks go off the deep-end about it, but no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Devuan itself was born of people who refused the status quo and chose to tinker with it.

I'm not suggesting Devuan do anything different at all. But even if I was folks shouldn't bristle at the very mention of doing something different.

I just innocently jumped into an interesting topic, and had the temerity to suggest I might take it upon myself to experiment with such, and as a result have seen a lot of name-calling thrown out there, and intimations that people doing or even suggesting these simple thing brings harm to the system somehow.

As a whole, this forum has become quite a bit more uptight and stringent, and less welcoming than it was 8 years ago, that's not a look that's going to attract any new developers IMO. And that's the last i'll say about it. Time for me to take a break from it.

blackhole · 2025-01-24 08:48:49

I would say that you have jumped to conclusions.

My first paragraph was in reply to you. Nothing in the next two paragraphs was directed at you at all. I apologise if that wasn't clear.

The existence of derivatives or "tinkering" is never a problem for any Linux distribution. I had pointed out that the project spawned some of these early on, but not gained enough core developers to work on the distrbution itself. That's not the same as saying the derivatives aren't wanted or are part of the problem. It means there are a lot willing to do personal hobby distro respins, but few available to get more involved. I believe there are a number of factors as to why this is the case - in no shape or form are you, or those involved in similar endeavours, to blame.

The idealogues have done far more damage here over the years than the distro respin hobbyists. Whilst the distribution is perceived to attract and accomodate such people, it will struggle to find new maintainers and developers willing to participate. Most people will work on a software project if they believe there is technical merit in doing so Not because they like the politics, or hate MSor Red Hat, or believe there is corporate conspiracy to destroy Linux using systemd.

These forums, official or not, are a big part of the "visibility" of the Devuan project and while conspiracy theorists and e.g. right wing nuts are tolerated here, it will be assumed that the project itself endorses those people and their views. Like it or not, that's the world we live in.

One thing the project should make very clear is that it will not invest time and effort removing systemd files from "upstream" packages - and this needs to be a bold statement. Giving in to those who want a "sterilised" system for ideological reasons, rather than technical ones is a doomed philosophy. If certain users can't understand why harmless unit files will not suddenly come to life and install Lennart Poettering in your distribution, then that's not something the project should cater for.

One earlier poster in this thread posted a very apt "guest bedroom" analogy, when it comes to systemd related cruft. They were of course drowned out by the noise of a certain kind of poster.

As with any distro forums, we see these posts from people who know next to nothing about how a Linux distribution is developed and maintained - or indeed about free software in general. To them Devuan is an "anti" activist movement and this site, a platform like any other.

The "systemd cleansers" are also the same kind of individual who angst over non-free firmware and despite every explanation, still want it removed if ony for some "feel good".

It all amounts to: "I don't undedrstand this, so it must be something nefarious".

If I were to do a grep of the FreeBSD ports tree for "systemd", I'm sure there would a fair few hits. No FreeBSD user that I know of cares and let's see if you can guess why.

Last edited by blackhole (2025-01-24 09:51:48)

Ron · 2025-01-24 09:52:56

blackhole wrote:

and e.g. right wing nuts are tolerated here

And left wing nuts like you.

Dutch_Master · 2025-01-24 12:54:33

Here's yer wing nuts folks!

There's ones left and ones right, so plenty for everyone, so stop arguing!

blackhole · 2025-01-24 13:09:02

@Ron, I see you've identified yourself and saved us all the trouble. Thanks.

pcalvert · 2025-01-25 06:32:49

golinux wrote:

Why is this conversation even happening when currently no one is building the installer isos!

When I have some time, I will attempt to build an installer ISO. Not quite eight years ago, I built several live CDs. Maybe what I learned from those experiences will be helpful.

ralph.ronnquist · 2025-01-25 11:15:34

@pcalvert: for any assistance and/or discussions you should use IRC channel #devuan-dev at libera.chat.

brocashelm · 2025-01-25 20:01:40

At this point, the whole Systemd hate has kind of died down. Wayland is the focus now. It is where your use case will not matter at all to the pretentious GN*ME/Freedesktop.org/Red Hat folks.

blackhole wrote:

The idealogues have done far more damage here over the years than the distro respin hobbyists. Whilst the distribution is perceived to attract and accomodate such people, it will struggle to find new maintainers and developers willing to participate. Most people will work on a software project if they believe there is technical merit in doing so Not because they like the politics, or hate MSor Red Hat, or believe there is corporate conspiracy to destroy Linux using systemd.
These forums, official or not, are a big part of the "visibility" of the Devuan project and while conspiracy theorists and e.g. right wing nuts are tolerated here, it will be assumed that the project itself endorses those people and their views. Like it or not, that's the world we live in.

Sorry you feel that way. Anyway...

blackhole wrote:

some of the users of this site need to consider how their behaviour reflects on the Devuan project as a whole

Dunno about that. The Artix guys don't care at all about "muh hurt feelings", and their distro is currently ranked #3 at DistroWatch.com. In fact, one of the questions they ask you in interviews is: On a scale of 1 to 10, how much of an SJW are you?

And their distro is every bit as functional and popular as the other non-Systemd distros. Oh, and their inits (e.g. Runit, s6, OpenRC, Dinit) are complete on their own -- instead of Debian's half-assed way of relying everything on SysVinit to some extent.

There's also OpenBSD, whose protocols are strictly about keeping things "as politics-free as possible". Thus, they won't take kindly to anyone going on their mailing list and complaining about Elon Musk or why the project "needs" to endorse BLM/Antifa (the two are the same to me).

Ron · 2025-01-26 04:22:46

blackhole wrote:

@Ron, I see you've identified yourself and saved us all the trouble. Thanks.

Yeah, it's a two-way street. And I would just direct any to this post by golinux:

blackhole is an outside agitator/abuser with no ties to the Devuan project
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=41061#p41061

BTW, pointing out that you're a left wing nut does not automatically make me a right wing nut.

golinux · 2025-01-27 15:59:25

@pcalvert . . . Yes, the isos need to be rebuilt regularly. Problem is they may need to be debugged before the iso will work properly.

blackhole · 2025-01-27 19:46:13

@Ron, let's be clear here: I referred to "right wing nuts" - at no point targetting you or mentioning you by name or inferring anything about you personally.

Then in post #85 you proceeded to personally attack me, unprovoked, quoting and reacting to just that statement of mine. You were triggered and you seem to have a "personal vendetta".

You were indeed triggered by that comment, you responded with a personal attack and then you went to great trouble to unearth an old post, advising others to refer to it, to seek to justify your reaction - so yes that does raise questions about you and your motives.

Last edited by blackhole (2025-01-27 19:50:20)

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#76 2025-01-23 01:02:58

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#77 2025-01-23 01:08:49

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#78 2025-01-23 01:11:36

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#79 2025-01-23 01:18:28

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#80 2025-01-23 01:27:47

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#81 2025-01-23 01:39:12

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#82 2025-01-23 08:53:44

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#83 2025-01-23 20:18:37

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#84 2025-01-24 08:48:49

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#85 2025-01-24 09:52:56

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#86 2025-01-24 12:54:33

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#87 2025-01-24 13:09:02

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#88 2025-01-25 06:32:49

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#89 2025-01-25 11:15:34

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#90 2025-01-25 20:01:40

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#91 2025-01-26 04:22:46

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#92 2025-01-27 15:59:25

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#93 2025-01-27 19:46:13

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

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