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#1 2018-03-04 20:17:54

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,118  

Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

Why are there systemd files present in Devuan?  That question has been asked and answered several times including recently on the DNG mail list at the end of this post:

I issued $locate systemd
and got 200 lines of output, including
/etc/systemd/system/* (23 files)
/lib/systemd/system/* (60 files)
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0 (and 0.17.0)
/usr/lib/systemd (25 files)
/usr/bin/deb-systemd-helper ((and deb-systemd-invoke)
/var/lib/systemd/deb-systemd-helper-enabled/* (68 files)
/var/lib/dpkg/info/libsystemd):amd64* (5 files)

This seems a lot to me.  Please could you confirm that an ascii
installation should contain 200 systemd files as part of a normal
ascii installation.  Sorry to trouble you if these are trivial
questions, but they feel far from that.
Many thanks
leloft

Most of those "alarming" files are just systemd units files, put there
by daemons/packages/utilities who "also" support systemd in a way or
another. So they are not alarming but just *totally* *harmless* if you
don't have a running systemd as PID 1, since only systemd understands
and can run them.  It would be *totally* *useless* (and utterly
*stupid* IMHO) to fork, rebuild, and maintain a few more hundred
packages only because they happen to provide a systemd unit file for
those systems where systemd is used.

libsystemd0 is used by some daemons to verify if systemd is running or
not. If it's not, libsystemd is *totally* *harmless*.

HND

KatolaZ

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#2 2018-03-05 21:53:52

greenjeans
Member
Registered: 2017-04-07
Posts: 426  
Website

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

Good info Golinux!

Lots of examples of this, I personally try to NOT use Pulseaudio, but installing VLC drags in libpulse, not because VLC won't work on ALSA, but so it can communicate if need be with another machine on a network that does use it. So in practice it's never used expect for the above scenario. I simply deleted most of the pulse files and made it into a dummy package. Not that it wasn't a dummy to start with. wink


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#3 2018-06-04 19:19:50

oui
Member
Registered: 2017-09-02
Posts: 61  

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

Hi
I did check in my installation (in Jessie):

sudo apt-get --no-install-recommends install sudo gpm clex xinit xserver-common xserver-xorg-core xserver-xorg-input-all xserver-xorg-input-mouse xserver-xorg-video-modesetting xserver-xorg-video-intel x11-apps x11-common x11-session-utils x11-utils x11-xkb-utils x11-xserver-utils xfonts-base xfonts-encodings xfonts-scalable xfonts-utils xserver-xorg xserver-xorg-video-vmware xterm menu 9menu ratpoison jwm choosewm merkaartor mpv deborphan rxvt alsa-base alsa-tools alsa-utils alsa-tools-gui pulseaudio cups-client cups-common cups-server-common ssl-cer

(I did only add manually QtWeb and Seamonkey, each the last proposed download from the sites of both, and libflashplayer.so from my last (32 bit) Debian Jessie installation...)

I did really find in my absolutely minimal installation a subdir /lib/systemd with an impressive content!

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#4 2020-12-06 00:52:00

Jafa
Member
Registered: 2019-08-21
Posts: 10  

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

Those are called 'stubs' in computer science. They are put there as a deprecation to keep apps & utilities that reference them from failing catastrophically. (It's kinda like having a "guest" bedroom, but never inviting anyone to spend the night (which demonstrates that you are socially competent, but you don't actually have to go there)).

Last edited by Jafa (2020-12-06 01:16:20)

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#5 2021-01-24 13:49:15

swarfendor437
Member
From: Somewhere off Atlantis
Registered: 2020-10-28
Posts: 56  

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

I've had some issues with Jitsi in terms of sound and finally had to install the Pulse package for ALSA to get it working (sound) whilst in a Jitsi meeting. I don't use VLC any more. The only media players on the system are: mpv media player, SM Player, Dragon Player, Videos. Appears I have Pulse Audio Volume Control but I think I had to install it too regarding the Jitsi issue.

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#6 2021-01-27 19:12:28

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 267  
Website

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

golinux wrote:

Why are there systemd files present in Devuan?  That question has been asked and answered several times including recently on the DNG mail list at the end of this post:

"this post" are broken!

Lurker - failed to render page:
Database message source pull failure (not found):
The specified message has been deleted.

what a shame.. more and more failes?

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#7 2021-01-27 23:59:56

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 221  

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

Jafa wrote:

Those are called 'stubs' in computer science. They are put there as a deprecation to keep apps & utilities that reference them from failing catastrophically. (It's kinda like having a "guest" bedroom, but never inviting anyone to spend the night (which demonstrates that you are socially competent, but you don't actually have to go there)).

Sweet necro, its been like over 2 years... tongue

Though why Swar also did so... idk.

Though his wasn't 2 years. tongue

Edit: Should this be locked?

Last edited by zapper (2021-01-28 00:03:08)


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!

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#8 2021-01-28 01:03:54

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 267  
Website

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

zapper wrote:

Edit: Should this be locked?

is it necessary to ask.?.. broken links open forum threads .. puff

I remember the old forum and the disappointment of the maintainer, at least he put heart into it... in good manner I say that so much filtering and the same bureaucracy that we hate in debian seems to be present in devuan..

my most recent contribution was the improvement at the courier suite.. i made backport pacakges of in venenux repos that are working in devuan of course

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#9 2021-01-28 15:41:14

bgstack15
Member
Registered: 2018-02-04
Posts: 186  

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

To be on topic, and probably to repeat earlier stuff which I'm not bothering to read: A lot of packages drop files into systemd locations. It doesn't harm a system to have /usr/lib/systemd/system/$FOOBAR.service as a file. It just doesn't help either.

There's rumblings of a devuan-sanity-systemctl package that will provide a systemctl translator script to actually provide the real behavior from the "systemctl" invocations, for the Ceres (unstable) release, but I don't know if that's going anywhere. If you download that yourself, be sure to put it in /usr/bin and not /usr/sbin. But be advised that the script will just run the real "service $FOOBAR stop" commands and not actually use the /usr/lib/systemd/system/$FOOBAR.service service entries. It isn't systemd, after all.

If you would like to contribute to how Devuan operates, we meet weekly. You can read the announcement for how to attend the meetings: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 … 7c.en.html.


This space intentionally left blank.

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#10 2021-01-28 15:50:57

dice
Member
Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 222  
Website

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

bgstack15 wrote:

To be on topic, and probably to repeat earlier stuff which I'm not bothering to read: A lot of packages drop files into systemd locations. It doesn't harm a system to have /usr/lib/systemd/system/$FOOBAR.service as a file. It just doesn't help either.

There's rumblings of a devuan-sanity-systemctl package that will provide a systemctl translator script to actually provide the real behavior from the "systemctl" invocations, for the Ceres (unstable) release, but I don't know if that's going anywhere. If you download that yourself, be sure to put it in /usr/bin and not /usr/sbin. But be advised that the script will just run the real "service $FOOBAR stop" commands and not actually use the /usr/lib/systemd/system/$FOOBAR.service service entries. It isn't systemd, after all.

If you would like to contribute to how Devuan operates, we meet weekly. You can read the announcement for how to attend the meetings: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 … 7c.en.html.

This reads to me like damage control. Systemd is causing devuan to mitigate the blow systemd is going to strike in the future?


“That which is below is like that which is above, and that which is above is like that which is below, to perform the miracles of one only thing.”

-Hermes Trismegistos

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#11 2021-01-29 21:46:16

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 267  
Website

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

bgstack15 wrote:

To be on topic, and probably to repeat earlier stuff which I'm not bothering to read: A lot of packages drop files into systemd locations. It doesn't harm a system to have /usr/lib/systemd/system/$FOOBAR.service as a file. It just doesn't help either.

If you would like to contribute to how Devuan operates, we meet weekly. You can read the announcement for how to attend the meetings: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 … 7c.en.html.

network-mananger still cause some problems.. and now i found systemd files present in some non managed devuan packages..

i search at the search tool site of devuan and we can found several systemd files present in the system:

https://pkginfo.devuan.org/xsl-bin/pack … n=0.69.0-2

it seems that debhelper 11+ integrates dh_systemd, devuan developers need to manage the buils of this and remove that code.. most easy way is an auto_dh_systemd empty section in debian/rules of rebuild debian merged packages..

there also other amprolla merged ones that are not managed by devuan such as the famous courier-imad so widelly used:

i search at the search tool site of devuan and we can found several systemd files present in the system:

https://pkginfo.devuan.org/xsl-bin/pack … .6+1.0.6-1  it put a /lib/systemd/system/courier-imap.service file and also trigger into postinstall file..

security updates need also be tracked i noted the delayed way of devuan respect the souorce of the packages (debian)

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#12 2021-01-30 10:13:04

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 221  

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

mckaygerhard wrote:
bgstack15 wrote:

To be on topic, and probably to repeat earlier stuff which I'm not bothering to read: A lot of packages drop files into systemd locations. It doesn't harm a system to have /usr/lib/systemd/system/$FOOBAR.service as a file. It just doesn't help either.

If you would like to contribute to how Devuan operates, we meet weekly. You can read the announcement for how to attend the meetings: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 … 7c.en.html.

network-mananger still cause some problems.. and now i found systemd files present in some non managed devuan packages..

i search at the search tool site of devuan and we can found several systemd files present in the system:

https://pkginfo.devuan.org/xsl-bin/pack … n=0.69.0-2

it seems that debhelper 11+ integrates dh_systemd, devuan developers need to manage the buils of this and remove that code.. most easy way is an auto_dh_systemd empty section in debian/rules of rebuild debian merged packages..

there also other amprolla merged ones that are not managed by devuan such as the famous courier-imad so widelly used:

i search at the search tool site of devuan and we can found several systemd files present in the system:

https://pkginfo.devuan.org/xsl-bin/pack … .6+1.0.6-1  it put a /lib/systemd/system/courier-imap.service file and also trigger into postinstall file..

security updates need also be tracked i noted the delayed way of devuan respect the souorce of the packages (debian)

For once, I agree, NetworkManager is going to cause problems. 

Connman and wicd are good workarounds for now.  Dhcpcd-gtk would be useful, only problem is, I don't know to get it running in devuan.

In Hyperbola its super simple.

Devuan/Debian distros, not so much...


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!

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#13 2021-01-30 21:31:53

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 267  
Website

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

zapper wrote:
mckaygerhard wrote:

it seems that debhelper 11+ integrates dh_systemd, devuan developers need to manage the buils of this and remove that code.. most easy way is an auto_dh_systemd empty section in debian/rules of rebuild debian merged packages..

there also other amprolla merged ones that are not managed by devuan such as the famous courier-imad so widelly used:

i search at the search tool site of devuan and we can found several systemd files present in the system:

https://pkginfo.devuan.org/xsl-bin/pack … .6+1.0.6-1  it put a /lib/systemd/system/courier-imap.service file and also trigger into postinstall file..

security updates need also be tracked i noted the delayed way of devuan respect the souorce of the packages (debian)

For once, I agree, NetworkManager is going to cause problems. 

Connman and wicd are good workarounds for now.  Dhcpcd-gtk would be useful, only problem is, I don't know to get it running in devuan.

In Hyperbola its super simple.

Devuan/Debian distros, not so much...

well i was talking about two things in same way, networ-manager problem is not take a program and make to work.. wicd are only eth0/wifi and conmman is not so active developed.. well only end users will be affected and in those limited programs devuan will be used by hackers only ..

we need to make it work the network-manager package, devuan and debian packagers must work togetter as winbuntu does, yeah sounds nasty but well devuan relies on debian sources

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