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#1 2019-12-10 01:01:15

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

credit for "fifth freedom" goes elsewhere, you know who you are-- feel free to speak up.

i was leaning away from a fifth on the grounds that it would be too difficult to write one that didnt dilute one of the others. then boughtonp spoke, and this is what they said: https://www.linuxquestions.org/question … ost6066309

boughtonp;6066300 wrote:

Here would be my fifth: replace - the freedom to not run the software, to be free to avoid vendor lock-in through appropriate modularization/encapsulation and minimized dependencies - meaning any free software can be replaced with a user's preferred alternatives.

i think that could actually work!

and its high time for something like it. im going to run it up every flagpole i know, find out who salutes.

Last edited by freemedia2018 (2019-12-10 01:01:57)


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#2 2019-12-10 05:09:11

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 141  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

Isn't this implied by the freedom of choice?

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#3 2019-12-10 05:24:16

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

Dutch_Master wrote:

implied by the freedom of choice

what "freedom of choice?"

$ echo "The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help others (freedom 2). The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this." | grep oice | wc -l
0
$


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#4 2019-12-10 05:44:58

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 141  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

The freedom to choose whether or not to run free software and if doing so, which free software. It's a fundamental freedom for FOSS, I'd say it's the very foundation of the whole movement/project/whatever-you-call-it.

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#5 2019-12-10 06:47:44

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,919  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

Soon you will not be able to choose not to run systemd.  Systemd is "capturing" the GNU-Linux "commons" that we have shared for decades through a web of hard dependencies. The only choice will be not to use GNU-Linux.

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#6 2019-12-10 13:46:57

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 194  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

golinux wrote:

Soon you will not be able to choose not to run systemd.  Systemd is "capturing" the GNU-Linux "commons" that we have shared for decades through a web of hard dependencies. The only choice will be not to use GNU-Linux.

How soon ?

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#7 2019-12-10 16:34:44

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

HevyDevy wrote:

How soon ?

too soon.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#8 2019-12-10 20:17:25

siva
Member
Registered: 2018-01-25
Posts: 230  
Website

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

HevyDevy wrote:
golinux wrote:

Soon you will not be able to choose not to run systemd.  Systemd is "capturing" the GNU-Linux "commons" that we have shared for decades through a web of hard dependencies. The only choice will be not to use GNU-Linux.

How soon ?

P sure there isn't a set date, but as a general trend, a lot of software will move with the opinion of the "mothership distros."  Alternatives will only be at the mercy of the larger bastions, like slackware and gentoo.  But, if those projects shut down, buy-in to systemd, or just don't find the battle worth it, we'll be locked.

I'm of the belief that this probably won't happen, but only because there is so much pushback from the BSDs and Slack/Gentoo.

On the other hand, I am very concerned about SOIC hardware fucking over the open-source ecosystem by design.


the thomos project
thomos support thread
cynwulf wrote: "You should get some more sleep and spend less time on forums."

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#9 2019-12-10 21:34:23

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

siva wrote:

I'm of the belief that this probably won't happen, but only because there is so much pushback from the BSDs and Slack/Gentoo.

On the other hand, I am very concerned about SOIC hardware fucking over the open-source ecosystem by design.

ive got lots of ideas about how to push back against this stuff, but not enough venues to talk about them.

its easier to find venues to talk about the problem than to talk about solutions. and im very grateful that there are venues to talk about the problem, as that really is where solutions begin. it DOES have to turn into action eventually, or (obviously) its just talk. for my part, ive spent plenty of time "doing."

but some of this "doing" is the sort that ultimately proves we have to "do" some things together, which means we either need to bow to a coordinator who has a positively working idea-- or we need to find a way to coordinate amongst ourselves. thats no easy trick, and this problem we fight is nothing that simple either. they pretend its simple, but its been 5 years. its not like we havent done anything in those years. if you find a piece of something you can fix, great. but if nobody knows it exists, that sadly wont help much.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#10 2019-12-10 22:07:32

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,919  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

freemedia2018 wrote:

if you find a piece of something you can fix, great. but if nobody knows it exists, that sadly wont help much.

Have at it.  Plenty of bugs to choose from.  We know they exist but it's easier to talk.

Note that some of these reports may not actually be "bugs" but we don't know because no one is checking.

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#11 2019-12-10 23:13:10

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

golinux wrote:

Plenty of bugs to choose from.  We know they exist but it's easier to talk.

the way i contribute to things is to take stock of what i have to offer and look around for opportunities to help using my actual talents. ive tried explaining what i have to offer before, but one or two people were more interested in shooting it down. ive come back to look again, but out comes the idea again that im not doing anything. ive been quite busy this week, actually.

whip cracks just dont do it for me-- thats not what im into. i prefer to think about what im doing, before each stage of acting. that way when im doing, i have some idea of what im doing. if other people already know, then good for them. if you can do good without knowing what youre doing, thats also great. i applaud it.

one of my favourite stories, from the tao of pooh, is about a general who could make use of anybodys talents. his strength was in figuring out exactly what tasks they were best for. im actually very good at finding things i can do, but not everybody is always interested. so be it, but that doesnt obligate me to do random tasks unrelated to the skills i have. not every coding task is easily transferable to another, for example.

anyway, the general was made aware of a master thief, whom he sent to steal a hairpin from a rival generals tent. the story goes on but the message sent was that the thief would eventually return for the generals head, and they were able to convince the general to leave them alone after that. now, you have a list of things youd like help with, but you dont seem interested in where my talents lay. no problem, as long as you dont ask me to do anything.

i come here to learn, i learn so i can do things, i learn many things by talking with people. by suggesting i stop talking to do some random chore you are interrupting my work. if thats the best use you can make use of my talents, to imply im not using them, i would simply say that you dont know me yet-- you might not ever. but thats not my problem, and i wont take the blame for it. i already know that no matter how much i do for devuan, youre not going to make anything easy. but youre really not helping me by making it harder-going.

trust me on this-- it was enough trouble i was going to already, and if its too much trouble ill find a work environment where i can get more done-- ive got several of those workplaces, because i do a lot.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#12 2019-12-11 00:32:14

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,919  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

Whoa!!! That comment was more of a general statement rather than specifically directed at you.   I have beat that drum many times on devuan channels.  Mostly it falls on deaf ears and that is frustrating yet I keep trying.   Perhaps it is true of all software (or other) projects that there are always too few people who will roll up their sleeves and commit.  It is also true that we each have our unique talents.

I have held back because I'm not clear on exactly how you would implement the ideas/protections that we have discussed in some detail.  If we agree that the 5 "Pillars" of GNU-Linux are the only way to protect truly free software what is the plan to ensure that it becomes the defacto standard?

No need to pick up your marbles and go home.  Really.  You won't find a more receptive audience than you will here.  smile

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#13 2019-12-11 01:26:48

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

No need to pick up your marbles and go home.  Really.  You won't find a more receptive audience than you will here.  smile

then ill keep trying for now.

golinux wrote:

I have beat that drum many times on devuan channels.  Mostly it falls on deaf ears and that is frustrating yet I keep trying.

ill try not to take it personally.

there are always too few people who will roll up their sleeves and commit.  It is also true that we each have our unique talents.

one of the reasons i blather is that im usually trying to think of a way to do something impossible-- like get several distros running with zero work. sometimes there is just no substitute for rolling sleeves up but one of the key motivations for a geek is to find a better way. without that urge, computers and the internet wouldnt exist.

I'm not clear on exactly how you would implement the ideas/protections that we have discussed in some detail.  If we agree that the 5 "Pillars" of GNU-Linux are the only way to protect truly free software what is the plan to ensure that it becomes the defacto standard?

there is a plan of sorts. its an ongoing, do-a-little, check status, do-a-little more kind of thing. i wont outline it all (youre welcome) but if it wasnt already clear, im always happy to talk about it. it gets more refined (practical) that way.

none of this perfectly fits devuan because i am always looking for a holistic solution for every distro and every single user, including people who dont use it.

its not one-size-fits all, that doesnt exist and creates disasters like systemd.

devuan has many missions--

1. create a distro
2. support a distro
3. promote freedom
4. fix debian
5. beat systemd, which is a weapon (imo) designed to destroy posix (save posix)

the fifth freedom is about 3 / 4 / 5, because we are promoting freedom in the hope that will fix debian and beat systemd.

stallman is out of the fsf, as some of us predicted. he probably cant change the four freedoms now-- nor would he. for better or worse (typically better) hes very set in his ways. his authority wont assist this, it wont give us something we can point to and say "because stallman said."

before we throw out the idea, its good to look for what voices would count. for lots of reasons, jaromil liking the idea counts for a heck of a lot. he likes the idea, so theres that.

what we want is for enough people to like the idea, to care about the principle. for it to appeal to their philosophy.

this fifth freedom is just a step along the way, i think it can be very powerful. i LIKE init freedom, i think this can be represent init freedom and even bolster it considerably. its difficult for many to care about init, systemd isnt an init anymore, its a replacement os (steve litt said something to that effect, frankly so did poettering so its not a crazy thing for us to say about systemd.)

but the freedom says almost as much as "the freedom to change" but it still says more.

short version: we go find more people and what they think of it, we find as much approval for the idea as possible.

long version: there is more to it than that, but every journey starts with a single step.

i try to go where i can help. if i can help here, thats great. id like devuan to succeed. practically anybody and everybody fighting systemd, id like them to succeed.

“for Microsoft to win, the customer must lose.” https://antitrust.slated.org/halloween/halloween1.html

thats the attitude of the people we are up against. they need to defeat everybody else to win. we dont need to do that. we can all succeed, and they will still lose at destroying us. but we know thats their goal.

ours, i think, is to make that goal as clear to as many people as possible, i thought the pillars idea might help, only because i didnt think anybody could write a fifth freedom that really worked. i think we have one.

if i write too much, feel free to skim or skip to the end. dont go back unless its out of curiosity, or you want to.

Last edited by freemedia2018 (2019-12-11 01:27:56)


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#14 2019-12-11 01:33:55

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 218  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

What happened to my comment? It was there a minute ago.

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#15 2019-12-11 01:37:22

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,919  

Re: ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom...

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