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#1 2019-09-23 05:01:50

mknoop
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Registered: 2017-05-18
Posts: 28  

Debian considering going systemd init only

I saw an article in slashdot.org today:

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/09/ … -diversity

It sounded like the project director was politely asking the different development teams to work together like grown ups.

If Debian should go systemd init only, will the Devuan development team be able to handle the added work of providing a systemd-free OS still based on Debian?  It sounds like it would be a lot more work.

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#2 2019-09-23 08:25:41

ToxicExMachina
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Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 131  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

I don't see any trouble in that because it's not so hard to maintain existing sysv-rc scripts and make new ones. It will be also fatal decision for Debian because someone will make easy to use tool for generating an initscript for any daemon. Dropping other kernels (kFreeBSD and HURD) will also force developers to work with Devuan instead of Debian.

The real problem is inevitable death of Debian in case of keeping SystemD. The aim of SystemD is RedHat ecosystem. Everything which is not RH-based thing is under attack because SystemD is open source proprietary software (OSPS).

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#3 2019-09-23 14:46:03

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,725  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

ToxicExMachina wrote:

The aim of SystemD is RedHat ecosystem. Everything which is not RH-based thing is under attack because SystemD is open source proprietary software (OSPS).

And a new acronym is born!  OSPS is brilliant!!

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#4 2019-09-24 05:44:02

yeti
Member
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 142  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

ToxicExMachina wrote:

The real problem is inevitable death of Debian in case of keeping SystemD.

Then let's welcome the billions of Debian migrants coming to Devuan!
:-D


"There is no PLANET-B!" — ???
"Vrijdag voor VT100!" — Yeti.
"Stop slavery! Free all mitochondria!" — Yeti.

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#5 2019-09-24 14:11:39

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 316  
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Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

mknoop wrote:

If Debian should go systemd init only, will the Devuan development team be able to handle the added work of providing a systemd-free OS still based on Debian?

The elogind package which is the source of the linked problem was originally packaged up by Devuan and is also used by Gentoo so it should continue to work even if Debian drop it.

ToxicExMachina wrote:

I don't see any trouble in that because it's not so hard to maintain existing sysv-rc scripts and make new ones.

It may not be "hard" but there are currently 1033 packages that ship systemd unit files without matching init scripts[1], they don't currently work properly under sysvinit.

And it looks like some Debian maintainers aren't even testing existing init scripts, let alone adding new ones:

https://lwn.net/ml/debian-devel/b027c97 … 7@bzed.de/

https://lwn.net/ml/debian-devel/2018101 … piware.de/


Fabricando fit faber

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#6 2019-09-24 15:59:16

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,725  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
mknoop wrote:

If Debian should go systemd init only, will the Devuan development team be able to handle the added work of providing a systemd-free OS still based on Debian?

The elogind package which is the source of the linked problem was originally packaged up by Devuan and is also used by Gentoo so it should continue to work even if Debian drop it.

IIRC, Devuan got elongind from gentoo.  gentoo didn't get it from us.  Maybe I'm misreading . . .

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#7 2019-09-24 17:01:19

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 316  
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Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

I think elogind was originally created for GuixSD, adopted by Gentoo and then later packaged for Devuan.

Upstream: https://github.com/elogind/elogind

The version in Debian sid and Devuan beowulf & ceres is now fully ABI-compatible with libsystem0, albeit with most of the functionality stubbed-out.


Fabricando fit faber

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#8 2019-09-25 12:48:21

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 24  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Hopefully this wont affect my machines, i dont use elogind or consolekit, ive been using devuan with no dbus and it runs great for what i need. Im old school though, we will eventually get left behind and overtaken with tech that is shiny and "progressive" but not really needed.

Last edited by HevyDevy (2019-09-25 12:53:45)

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#9 2019-09-25 14:25:56

Geoff 42
Member
Registered: 2016-12-15
Posts: 268  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

I have just spotted the latest bit of madness, at El Reg :-

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/2 … rectories/

He wants to take over your home directory...

Geoff

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#10 2019-09-25 17:53:54

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 316  
Website

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Geoff 42 wrote:

He wants to take over your home directory...

If an encrypted laptop is suspended then the key has to be stored in memory, systemd-homed has been created to enable the user password and encryption key to be unified so that the key doesn't have to be kept where a malicious agent can extract it.

So it's a new feature that solves a genuine problem. What a bunch of bastards, eh?


Fabricando fit faber

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#11 2019-09-25 17:58:40

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,725  

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#12 2019-09-25 18:21:10

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 316  
Website

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Thanks for the link, refracta2usb is indeed an awesome tool :-)

But I don't think it solves the problem I explained in my last post, nor does it unify the user authentication data in $HOME so that it can be ported to another machine. And systemd-homed will allow per-user resource constraints as part of the configuration.


Fabricando fit faber

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#13 2019-09-25 19:29:56

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,229  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

refracta2usb definitely doesn't solve the encrypted suspend problem. I suppose you could unmount the loopback file that has the encrypted filesystem and then suspend, but I've never tried. I just turn it off if I need it to be secure.

The other problem r2u doesn't solve is the user ID when moving home across different machines. It's meant for a live-usb, so you just take your own OS with you.

The only problem I might have with homed is if it gets in the way of doing things differently. I guess we'll see...

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#14 2019-09-25 21:04:07

PedroReina
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From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 2019-01-13
Posts: 82  
Website

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

HevyDevy wrote:

i dont use elogind or consolekit, ive been using devuan with no dbus and it runs great for what i need.

That seems very interesting to me. Could you, please, elaborate on it? May be a link or a new thread? Thank you.

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#15 2019-09-26 01:49:36

fsmithred
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,229  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

PedroReina wrote:
HevyDevy wrote:

i dont use elogind or consolekit, ive been using devuan with no dbus and it runs great for what i need.

That seems very interesting to me. Could you, please, elaborate on it? May be a link or a new thread? Thank you.

I don't know what HevyDevy is using, but I made some nodbus live isos to see how much I could install. It wasn't difficult, and I got a fairly complete set of desktop apps. You can read about it here:
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2158

Newer isos than the link in that thread are here.
https://get.refracta.org/files/experimental/
(refracta9 is ascii, refracta10 is beowulf.)

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#16 2019-09-26 09:20:18

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 24  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

PedroReina wrote:
HevyDevy wrote:

i dont use elogind or consolekit, ive been using devuan with no dbus and it runs great for what i need.

That seems very interesting to me. Could you, please, elaborate on it? May be a link or a new thread? Thank you.

I should have said devuan refracta10 nodbus as fsmithred mentions in previous post. Thanks for all your hard work fsmithred and team.

Few caveats for networking, cant use wicd or networkmanager so i just use wpa-supplicant instead, all the old network tools work fine you just have to know how to work them. I use openbox with obmenu-generator, lxdm seems to be fine and doesnt have a hard dependency on dbus as far as im aware so i use it to set the greeter. Firefox seems to be working ok as well.

init─┬─acpid
     ├─clipit───2*[{clipit}]
     ├─compton
     ├─conky───5*[{conky}]
     ├─cron
     ├─dhclient
     ├─exim4
     ├─6*[getty]
     ├─lxdm-binary─┬─Xorg───3*[{Xorg}]
     │             └─lxdm-session───openbox───ssh-agent
     ├─mdadm
     ├─ntpd───{ntpd}
     ├─pnmixer───{pnmixer}
     ├─rpc.idmapd
     ├─rpc.statd
     ├─rpcbind
     ├─rsyslogd───3*[{rsyslogd}]
     ├─sshd
     ├─tint2─┬─sh───firefox-esr─┬─2*[Web Content───22*[{Web Content}]]
     │       │                  ├─Web Content───16*[{Web Content}]
     │       │                  └─63*[{firefox-esr}]
     │       └─sh───lxterminal─┬─zsh───pstree
     │                         └─{lxterminal}
     ├─udevd
     ├─uuidd
     └─wpa_supplicant

Although dbus is not being used it does show up with a dpkg -l | grep dbus, but dbus and dbus-x11 are not installed so not sure what this is about?

~ % dpkg -l | grep dbus                                                    :(
rc  dbus                                 1.12.16-1+devuan2                   amd64        simple interprocess messaging system (daemon and utilities)
rc  dbus-x11                             1.12.16-1+devuan2                   amd64        simple interprocess messaging system (X11 deps)
ii  libdbus-1-3:amd64                    1.12.16-1+devuan2                   amd64        simple interprocess messaging system (library)
ii  libdbus-glib-1-2:amd64               0.110-4                             amd64        deprecated library for D-Bus IPC
ii  libdbusmenu-glib4:amd64              18.10.20180917~bzr490+repack1-1     amd64        library for passing menus over DBus
ii  libdbusmenu-gtk3-4:amd64             18.10.20180917~bzr490+repack1-1     amd64        library for passing menus over DBus - GTK-3+ version

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#17 2019-09-26 13:10:53

fsmithred
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,229  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

The rc before the package name means that the package was installed previously, has been removed and left behind one or more config files. The original iso only has the four libraries listed, so you must have installed something that pulled in dbus and dbus-x11 and then removed it.

To get those two out of the list, purge them.  (Note: 'aptitude search ~c' will show you others that left behind config files, and 'aptitude purge ~c' will get rid of them.)

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#18 2019-09-26 13:42:01

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 24  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Come to think of it, i believe i may have only installed refracta10 test iso with no X not the nodbus version and then did the apt pinning later on for a no dbus. My other machine had the nodbus version so i was trying to emulate it or copy the configs over to the other one, thank for the info fsmithred.

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#19 2019-09-26 18:44:43

PedroReina
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From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 2019-01-13
Posts: 82  
Website

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

fsmithred wrote:
HevyDevy wrote:

I should have said devuan refracta10 nodbus as fsmithred mentions in previous post.

Thank you. On desktops I'm using now XFCE, so I will need dbus. But for a minimal server your work seems very promising. I'll study it as soon as I can.

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#20 2019-10-04 18:54:43

bgstack15
Member
Registered: 2018-02-04
Posts: 66  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

I have just been researching how to shut down/restart/suspend a system using python, without dbus, and haven't come up with much. I searched for "dbus" on this forum and came across this thread. I was surprised to learn I have dbus running on my Devuan desktops, even the Fluxbox ones.

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#21 2019-10-04 20:50:22

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,725  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

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#22 2019-10-04 21:04:55

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,229  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

cat /etc/sudoers.d/user_shutdown
phred    ALL= NOPASSWD   /sbin/shutdown, /sbin/halt, /sbin/poweroff, /sbin/reboot

No dbus needed. You can make panel buttons for 'sudo halt' and the others if you don't want to type it.

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#23 2019-10-04 22:05:05

yeti
Member
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 142  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

In Linux's toddler days we had halt, reboot and shutdown logins with these commands as shell.


"There is no PLANET-B!" — ???
"Vrijdag voor VT100!" — Yeti.
"Stop slavery! Free all mitochondria!" — Yeti.

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