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#1 2019-05-01 18:28:35

kuleszdl
Member
Registered: 2018-11-03
Posts: 54  

Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

Just stumbled over this pro-systemd talk from linux.conf.au which suggests that we need systemd for properly running containers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

Haven't heard this argument before. Now I am wondering what is wrong in my Devuan setup since the lxc containers seem to work in Devuan even with sysvinit although UNIX is dead.

However, one thing that I could not agree more with the speaker is the following:

The world around us is changing and we can either go with the change or we can try and resist it.

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#2 2019-05-01 18:50:48

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,709  

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

kuleszdl wrote:

Just stumbled over this pro-systemd talk from linux.conf.au which suggests that we need systemd for properly running containers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

Haven't heard this argument before. Now I am wondering what is wrong in my Devuan setup since the lxc containers seem to work in Devuan even with sysvinit although UNIX is dead.

More amusement from the systemd camp.  Most of their arguments are propaganda not fact.  Read this if you haven't before.

kuleszdl wrote:

However, one thing that I could not agree more with the speaker is the following:

The world around us is changing and we can either go with the change or we can try and resist it.

The borg tired that argument too, rather forcefully.

Happy to hear that everything is working for you.

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#3 2019-05-01 23:55:56

aut0exec
Member
Registered: 2018-11-21
Posts: 47  

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

kuleszdl wrote:

Haven't heard this argument before. Now I am wondering what is wrong in my Devuan setup since the lxc containers seem to work in Devuan even with sysvinit although UNIX is dead.

Interesting! I'm messing around with containers on Devuan at the moment as well. It's been very seamless so far. Only real issue was the Devuan template (off github) was a little outdated and bloated but some easy modifications and voila! Out of curiosity, what distros are you running in containers? I've been meaning to try to build a Debian/Ubuntu container but was wonder how it would handle any systemd dependencies so I've not done it yet...

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#4 2019-05-02 18:55:10

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 300  
Website

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

kuleszdl wrote:

which suggests that we need systemd for properly running containers

That's not what the bloke says at all, he just claims that systemd makes it easier to manage containers.

Nice troll though, well done smile


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#5 2019-05-03 08:45:33

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 124  

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

Comments under the video on very controversial subject are locked. This is the only thing you need to know about that "argument" video.

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#6 2019-05-03 15:44:09

kuleszdl
Member
Registered: 2018-11-03
Posts: 54  

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

aut0exec wrote:

(...) Out of curiosity, what distros are you running in containers? I've been meaning to try to build a Debian/Ubuntu container but was wonder how it would handle any systemd dependencies so I've not done it yet...

I use Alpine and Debian containers. However, in the Debian containers, the first thing I do is to replace systemd by sysvinit and remove systemd. It's a pity that there's no official native Devuan container that can be installed easily in the official lxc/lxd repo.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

That's not what the bloke says at all, he just claims that systemd makes it easier to manage containers.

Well, around 32:40 he says:

"I think that the last really important thing that things like systemd enable through the use of cgroups and stuff like that is containers".

Later he goes on that the barrier for using containers is reduced by systemd. And I don't see any arguments that support this claim, as well as I don't see any substantial relation between cgroups and systemd. Also, I didn't notice a real difference between running LXC containers with and without systemd, except that containers that have systemd inside the container (like Debian) work badly without systemd unless you create some fake pseudo-systemd mounts on the non-systemd host.

ToxicExMachina wrote:

Comments under the video on very controversial subject are locked. This is the only thing you need to know about that "argument" video.

I disagree on that one, as it seems that all comments on the linuxconf.au videos are locked, no matter if the content is controversial or not. You are right indeed, comments on other videos are enabled in fact. Interesting! But I know of many other sites that disable comments for controversial articles/videos, so it's not THAT unusual, but still a noteworthy fact.

Last edited by kuleszdl (2019-05-03 15:50:49)

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#7 2019-05-03 15:55:34

kuleszdl
Member
Registered: 2018-11-03
Posts: 54  

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

@aut0exec: This is what I put in /etc/rc.local to make the systemd-containers happy (maybe also more, I don't remember anymore):

mkdir -p /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd
mount -t cgroup -o none,name=systemd systemd /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd

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#8 2019-05-03 21:20:44

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 300  
Website

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

kuleszdl wrote:

Well, around 32:40 he says:

"I think that the last really important thing that things like systemd enable through the use of cgroups and stuff like that is containers".

I think he's using "enable" to mean "make easier".

Given that the speaker is a FreeBSD developer I think it's safe to assume that he knows containers can work without systemd.

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/jails.html

kuleszdl wrote:

Later he goes on that the barrier for using containers is reduced by systemd. And I don't see any arguments that support this claim

He's just stating his opinion, which is based on his experience in a job working for a company that made large storage appliances.

FWIW, I find systemd-nspawn a lot easier to use than LXC, particularly in respect of networking.


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#9 2019-05-04 00:12:08

aut0exec
Member
Registered: 2018-11-21
Posts: 47  

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

kuleszdl wrote:

@aut0exec: This is what I put in /etc/rc.local to make the systemd-containers happy (maybe also more, I don't remember anymore):

mkdir -p /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd
mount -t cgroup -o none,name=systemd systemd /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd

Thanks. I'm not opposed to just purging systemd out of Debian either, haha. I'm also assuming those commands where done on the host right?

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#10 2019-05-04 11:41:03

kuleszdl
Member
Registered: 2018-11-03
Posts: 54  

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

aut0exec wrote:
kuleszdl wrote:

@aut0exec: This is what I put in /etc/rc.local to make the systemd-containers happy (maybe also more, I don't remember anymore):

mkdir -p /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd
mount -t cgroup -o none,name=systemd systemd /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd

Thanks. I'm not opposed to just purging systemd out of Debian either, haha. I'm also assuming those commands where done on the host right?

Yes exactly, they were done on the host. However, I don't remember if there was more to it than just those two commands.

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#11 2019-05-06 05:13:02

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 124  

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

kuleszdl wrote:

I disagree on that one, as it seems that all comments on the linuxconf.au videos are locked, no matter if the content is controversial or not. You are right indeed, comments on other videos are enabled in fact. Interesting! But I know of many other sites that disable comments for controversial articles/videos, so it's not THAT unusual, but still a noteworthy fact.

May be it's policy of the conference but they know: systemd is not welcome. Owners of media are trying to lock every comment section and make separate place to control any criticism because this is part of propaganda plan. It's related to every controversial and displeasing subject: systemd, wayland, redhat+microsoft partnership, coc, sjw, etc. (i.e. "Shut up and don't interrupt us when we are stealing everything from community. We've made a yard for such cattle as you - go there and scream as much as you want!")

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#12 2019-05-08 10:42:22

kuleszdl
Member
Registered: 2018-11-03
Posts: 54  

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

Well, I wouldn't presume that necessarily. It could also be the more practical reason that they do not want to moderate comments on controversial subjects because it's likely that commenters could show up who post offending content that violates various laws.

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#13 2019-05-08 17:57:54

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 300  
Website

Re: Something is wrong with my Devuan setup because my containers work

kuleszdl wrote:

It could also be the more practical reason that they do not want to moderate comments on controversial subjects because it's likely that commenters could show up who post offending content that violates various laws.

Quoted for truth.


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