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#1 2017-05-06 19:36:07

spartrekus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-30
Posts: 10

When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

Hello,

Wayland + Systemd is coming fairly on most Linux distributions. Original Linux will no longer look the same.
X11 window managers will have to be reprogrammed, and many things will no longer work.

To make even more mess within the Linux commnunity, when Wayland will finally bring death of X11 and many viable programs?

thank you for not supporting Systemd.

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#2 2017-05-07 04:02:14

cpoakes
Member
Registered: 2016-12-02
Posts: 5

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

My prognostication (for Debian and by inference Devuan):

With the glacial progress, missing drivers, and feature-incomplete status of Wayland, there is little to no chance it achieves default display manager status in Debian buster (freeze in 1.5 years, release mid-2019). Optimistically, it achieves default status in the following Debian release: bullseye (2021). And as we know, "default" does not mean retired or even obsolete. Considering the popularity of alternative window managers (like openbox and fluxbox) and no apparent heirs (save for i3/sway), X11 will remain the display manager of choice for these users. And with the difficulty Wayland has providing current hardware with video drivers, I wager it ultimately fails to provide adequate support for "older hardware". These shortfalls will prolong the death of X11 beyond buster's EOL (2024) well into the next decade.

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#3 2017-05-07 07:00:16

spartrekus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-30
Posts: 10

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

* Because Ubuntu adopted Wayland, there is indeed a high chance that Debian will follow, for the next or next next release of Debian.
Hopefully Wayland will give not manage to conquest all Debian-based distros.

* Concerning support, older hardwares aren't a big deal for most distros since they do not offer support. Debian cannot support, easy let's drop it: https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/05/ … older-cpus There is nothing wrong in offering a debian system with 486. It is possible to make Debian for use of everyone. It does not cost so much more energy, and it would avoid community to fork and to make many thousand distros, which live 5-10 years and ... non maintained, then vanish/disappear.

* In my opinion, if X11 dies, hopefully, someone will preserve and will maintain for history, but also for continuing Education and Research Purposes on Unix(-like) systems the old good following:
- W
- (Xvesa, XFree86), X.Org
- SysV way.
- Alsa
and so on...

* Of course, Wayland and new shining desktops are also good for guys that use their machines like a shining MS-Windows desktop. Graphical effects distract me for the essential. I am fine with an ugly TWM and FLTK. Ok, let's return to Space Travel game wink

Last edited by spartrekus (2017-05-07 07:22:52)

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#4 2017-05-07 08:29:55

yeti
Member
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 3

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

Current X11 with all those mean extensions is not as network transparent as it used to be a decade ago.
:-(

Sure it kind of works today but more and more programs are using features that put a horrible amount of data in motion or are not network transparent at all.

There was a video of Wayland makers ((ex-)X11 coders) declaring X11 dead because of it's ugly add-ons over the decades. But who has made them if not the X11 coders?

Now that's taken as reason for Wayland...

X11 may be dead but it was killed by its own maintainers!

Not amused at all I am!

I loved XDMCP!

*sigh!*

Last edited by yeti (2017-05-07 12:20:08)


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#5 2017-05-11 23:19:29

msi
Member
Registered: 2017-02-04
Posts: 18

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

Apropos X11 and potential successors: I just read yesterday that in the early 2000's there existed a project called the Y Window System which was developed by a guy named Mark Thomas at London's Imperial College and intended as a potential successor to X11. The design documents are still available at http://www.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portalliv … 619743.PDF.

Development of the original project seems to have ceased in 2004, but there has been a continuation called DsY-Windows. They have a Sourceforge page stating the last update occured in May 2015. It seems, however, that no one is really working on that anymore, which is a bit strange given the bunch of problems that seem to exist with X11.

Also, some one at the Xorg Foundation has written down a few ideas about a potential "X12" system some time ago: https://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12

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#6 2017-05-12 10:25:54

FOSSuser
Member
From: Surrey/Hants border UK
Registered: 2016-12-11
Posts: 57

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

Maybe the networking interfaces could be stripped out without too much disruption to produce a new base for those who like to just use a window manager & don't use X11's networking capabilities(?).

(I only use X11 to run my WM, as a home user of Linux.)

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#7 2017-05-26 18:51:06

Bad Sector
Member
Registered: 2017-05-26
Posts: 2

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

X11 is a protocol, not an implementation. Xorg just happens to be the currently most popular implementation. Some years ago it was XFree86, before that it was something else.

The thing with protocols and implementations is that you do not have to rely on a single implementation. Indeed there are other X11 implementations beyond Xorg (some even written in JavaScript - for example this one https://github.com/GothAck/javascript-x-server).

So what if Xorg dies? Well, first it wont matter for as long as there are people who want to use X11 since there will be other X11 servers. But secondly, and most importantly, it wont die because it can be forked. Much like Devuan exists because some people disliked systemd, a Xorg fork will certainly be made because there will be people who dislike Wayland.

Xorg is FLOSS after all. FLOSS doesn't die, at the worst case it just stays dormant until someone picks it up again. There are way less popular projects in the world than X11/Xorg that have active thriving communities, there is no danger of X11/Xorg going anywhere for at least a couple of decades from today.

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#8 2017-05-26 20:04:04

GNUser
Member
Registered: 2017-03-16
Posts: 31

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

I hope that either a) the X11 protocol and its cornucopia of tools never die (as Bad Sector suggests) or b) if/when Wayland becomes default, it will offer tools that allow us to do at least as much as we can do with X11.

I rely heavily on desktop environment-agnostic and window manager-agnostic (i.e., highly portable) tools such as xdotool (for GUI automation) and xbindkeys (for keyboard shortcuts). I'd be a miserable GNU/Linux user without these tools or something very similar.

Last edited by GNUser (2017-05-26 20:05:15)

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#9 2017-05-26 20:11:31

Bad Sector
Member
Registered: 2017-05-26
Posts: 2

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

FWIW i fully expect Wayland to become the default display server in the future, at least for the mainstream Linux distributions (especially Fedora and Ubuntu). But being default doesn't mean being the only option, as long as you can remove it (or not install it at all, for the distros that start small and allow you to build up your environment as you like it) it'll be fine.

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#10 Yesterday 06:18:41

spartrekus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-30
Posts: 10

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

GNUser wrote:

I hope that either a) the X11 protocol and its cornucopia of tools never die (as Bad Sector suggests) or b) if/when Wayland becomes default, it will offer tools that allow us to do at least as much as we can do with X11.

I rely heavily on desktop environment-agnostic and window manager-agnostic (i.e., highly portable) tools such as xdotool (for GUI automation) and xbindkeys (for keyboard shortcuts). I'd be a miserable GNU/Linux user without these tools or something very similar.

Me too, here, I have xbindkeys and I try to rather use wmctrl and no longer xdotool (in any case, xdotool isnt installed at school). The libx11-dev is installed on all my PCs, which allow me to deploy my X11 tiny apps on any Linux (using gcc and libx11-dev). For instance, nxmessage "hello" replaces ndzen brillantly.

Since no one is installing Linux from source code, by rather using instead a so-called "distribution", you will be always be somehow dependent. Why not using Windows then? There should be some sort of programmes that can be compiled over time without be in danger by devel / developers that want to experiment thing. Since most users use a distro and cannot compile, then, they end in strong dependency.   

If X11 (or successor) changes its libraries someday, then, that's bad for everyone at some point of the time. Everyone does not agree to drop important programmes just because libraries have changed. The point is probably to have strong reliable libraries. Are they ?? Not much really.

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