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#51 2018-12-15 17:40:39

KatolaZ
Member
Registered: 2017-03-11
Posts: 60  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

nixer wrote:

I think all that is needed is a short write-up on the different installation medias available, and what will be installed by each.  Most of the content needed for this write up has already been presented within this thread.   This write-up could also be as a single Read Me text file placed with the downloadable files.  A short explanation of each media would be informative and this would help new users.

Dear Nixer,

I would just humbly note that such a "write-up...as a single Read Me text file placed with the downloadable files. A short explanation of each media...." is already present in the same folder where all the Devuan ASCII images are available:

https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/

The file is called "README.txt". A file like that was also available for Devuan Jessie. I understand we have probably all grown lazy, and many of us expect information to be spat on their face, rather than looking for it in what seems to be the most logical place. To accommodate for that, we are putting together a simple webpage that summarises useful information about the different Devuan images available (basically, a squashed down and distilled version of that README.txt, with a few HTML tags around).  Anybody willing to help with that please shout on #devuan-dev@freenode.

HTH

KatolaZ

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#52 2018-12-15 17:59:04

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,486  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

Or probably better #devuan-www@freenode.

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#53 2018-12-15 18:12:05

Ron
Member
Registered: 2018-04-22
Posts: 161  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

golinux wrote:
And desktop users are NOT our target audience

This statement has me baffled. Do you mean desktop as in Desktop Environment, or as in desktop versus laptop?

Last edited by Ron (2018-12-15 18:18:23)

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#54 2018-12-15 18:54:11

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,486  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

Ron wrote:

golinux wrote:
And desktop users are NOT our target audience

This statement has me baffled. Do you mean desktop as in Desktop Environment, or as in desktop versus laptop?

Systemd is more of a threat to the stability of servers than the desktop and that is what prompted the VUAs (Veteran Unix Administrators) to fork Debian.  They run clusters of servers that power the internet and businesses. Here's an early description of the fork by one of our VUA developers (which is a bit outdated because Devuan has evolved).  This is the audience that Devuan was intended to target.

Other Devuan users are minimalists who tinker and do amazing things putting together elements in a very unique and creative way often for older hardware.   These Devuan users may never see a Desktop Environment.  So a full blown DE is irrelevant to them.

I do not fall into either category.  I am a desktop user but like it my way which is neither Ubuntu nor Mint because they insult my intelligence and personal aesthetic.

Devuan ships with DEs because users have stepped up to unravel the systemd dependencies for the DE of their choice and do the theming.  I am an Xfce user so theme it to my liking (and hopefully that of others).

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#55 2018-12-15 21:26:56

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 139  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

golinux wrote:
Ron wrote:

golinux wrote:
And desktop users are NOT our target audience

This statement has me baffled. Do you mean desktop as in Desktop Environment, or as in desktop versus laptop?

Systemd is more of a threat to the stability of servers than the desktop and that is what prompted the VUAs (Veteran Unix Administrators) to fork Debian.  They run clusters of servers that power the internet and businesses. Here's an early description of the fork by one of our VUA developers (which is a bit outdated because Devuan has evolved).  This is the audience that Devuan was intended to target.

Other Devuan users are minimalists who tinker and do amazing things putting together elements in a very unique and creative way often for older hardware.   These Devuan users may never see a Desktop Environment.  So a full blown DE is irrelevant to them.

I do not fall into either category.  I am a desktop user but like it my way which is neither Ubuntu nor Mint because they insult my intelligence and personal aesthetic.

Devuan ships with DEs because users have stepped up to unravel the systemd dependencies for the DE of their choice and do the theming.  I am an Xfce user so theme it to my liking (and hopefully others).

It seems that some folks, including esr, have trouble wrapping their head around the notion that not everyone/every project wants to 'be the biggest' and 'conquer the market' and 'attract the maximum number of newbies' and so forth and so on. It's all about 'winning' something or other, all or nothing, zero-sum.

I am not a VUA, but I am a VUUser, and I have come to understand and value greatly what Devuan is going. In fact, the more I understand it, the more I appreciate it. In my dotage, I prefer to use MATE, and I am very grateful to those who have made it available for non-systemd.

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#56 2018-12-17 00:39:57

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,486  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

I'm dropping this link here because I think some of you might not be on the DNG mail list.   Discussion of "What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer" which is relevant to this thread.  If you subscribe to that list you'll get a better idea of who Devuan users are.   Same goes for Devuan IRC channels.

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#57 2018-12-17 11:15:58

Panopticon
Member
Registered: 2018-01-27
Posts: 174  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

So what would is the number 1 issue when it comes to the devuan installers ?

I run fairly old hardware by todays standards so im thinking its current models of computers that are the main issues, newer systems and even newer newbies coming in for the linux experience. I started off using ubuntu years ago, back in 2006 or 7 i think, didnt get it and went back to windows then came back to linux in 2009 and started using linux lite i think and then distro hopped from there to arch, debian etc. If you are prepared to put the time and effort into learning how to setup your machine with linux in different ways it is well worth it and as time goes by if you havent fried your motherboard or put one too many zeros and ones on your hdd the you will have gained an education of sorts free of charge.

I admit when i came to debian and tried to figure out how to install a desktop environment i was bamboozled on what to download, put to cd or usb and install. First time i did i downloaded the live only image that didnt have an installer. When i came to devuan i saw they had a nice torrent file that had all the needed files you could want in one download, but first make sure you know what happens with torrents before you download them and look at the file tree.

More than anything in the realm of linux one needs to implement a fair amount of due diligence before commiting it.

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#58 2018-12-22 02:10:19

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,486  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

As a result of this thread some changes are being made to the Devuan website.  A description of the available isos has been added to both https://beta.devuan.org/ and https://beta.devuan.org/get-devuan (the mirror/download page).  And now there are visual guides (with screenshots) for both a classic install and a graphical install.  These changes are now available on the beta site for review and comments.

https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentatio … evuan.html
https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentatio … ption.html
https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentatio … stall.html
https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentatio … ption.html

So why do they they look different than the rest of the site?   Well, an earlier version of these pages was prepared last spring for inclusion in the ASCII isos that use the debian-installer and it was easier to keep them in that format.

There is still more to come with the addition of similar walk-throughs for the refractainstaller GUI and cli.

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#59 2019-02-14 23:13:15

imhigh.today
Member
Registered: 2019-02-14
Posts: 3  
Website

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

I agree with many of the points raised here, and am especially happy to see Eric take interest in Devuan.

One of the biggest drawbacks of Debian, in my opinion, is the obtuse documentation and the stubborn insistance on *building* "unofficial" installers but never mentioning them in the documentation.

LiveCDs containing various desktop environments, bootable from USB, and containing non-free firmware are *extremely* useful for new and veteran users alike. They're especially useful for troubleshooting, system recovery, and the inclusion of the debian-installer as a secondary GRUB boot option allows for extremely customized installs without sacrificing any of the power available to Debian's rather good installer.

In case anybody's not familiar with the images I'm referring to, they can be found here.

I *sincerely* hope that Devuan's current lack of those is an issue of manpower and not willingness. In an ideal future, those images would be auto-built and published, with a simple web-based way to find them that's prominently featured in the download section. We could debate about the best way to present that info, but taking an interested user from "Downloads" to the right image file is really a matter of three questions: Desktop or Server? Rolling or stable? What's your preferred desktop environment?

Debian's release model, and by extension, Devuan's, supports every one of those use cases without infrastructure changes or patches to the debian-installer. It's simply a matter of presenting that information to users logically - after the images are built, of course. Excepting the "manpower and willingness" part, that's fairly trivial; most of the differences are available via d-i preseeding and are already supported by taskselect.

I haven't yet looked into the Devuan SDK to see if there's a more appropriate method via "The Devuan Way", but it's something I'm very interested in. I'd be happy to put energy or resources into seeing this happen.

The persistence that esr mentions is going to be harder. I don't think d-i handles that at all, but if that's a use case others find value in, I'm sure there are tools from other distros that can meet the need.

Last edited by imhigh.today (2019-02-14 23:15:57)


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Devuan Ceres | Ryzen 2400G | RX560 | 32GB RAM | Samsung 850 Pro

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#60 Yesterday 16:53:57

cynwulf
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 219  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

imhigh.today wrote:

I agree with many of the points raised here, and am especially happy to see Eric take interest in Devuan.

I somehow doubt ESR will be back...

esr wrote:

I must tell you that level of hostility I'm seeing here against making Devuan more welcoming is not exactly encouraging me to commit to such a project.  Why do it if the core devs not only don't care about the issue but would prefer sitting in their own corner muttering about purity and shuffling the problem off to unspecified derivatives?

I must say that I can see his point.

While his entrance was perhaps a little "bombastic", I don't think all the immediate rebuttals and defensiveness was warranted.

I've seen a lot worse than ESR's comments, elsewhere.  As a 'BSD user, I've seen people who post on the mailing lists asking for features which are in Linux or another 'BSD.  They have a special information thread at the FreeBSD forums for such posters.

So I can absolutely see where the "hostility" has come from - however as I pointed out earlier in the thread, I think the "Devuan still sucks pretty badly" comment has certainly put some posters noses out of joint.  It would have been better to recognise the opportunity presented and just reply to the pertinent points, rather than going down the "submit your patch" / point by point deconstruction route.

ESR would have been a useful ally and proponent for the project - however I think it's safe to say that ship has now sailed.

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#61 Yesterday 21:14:50

franko
Member
Registered: 2019-02-04
Posts: 30  

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

He did have some good points, and some less good ones. And some of the good ones did seemingly have an impact, however small or slow, according to the circumstances, I guess... And all this IN SPITE of his megalomaniac egotistic *ssholish first post. I don't care if he is THE ESR, or a fake one. In a social context, you very often get the treatment you give -- and I believe this is what happened here. The fact someone is ESR or Poettering, or even Torvalds or RMS, shouln't give them any immunity to that fact. ESR's first approach wasn't much friendlier than what he got back.

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