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#1 2024-03-05 20:25:53

recklessswing
Member
From: Türkiye
Registered: 2020-12-18
Posts: 89  

What do you think about electric cars?

Recently I have test driven the TOGG T10X car, it seems very powerful and it's a SUV. I kinda liked it. I checked the prices, it was overall similiar to those of renault's and hyundai's and such. That got me thinking about electric cars. I am all for petrol-based cars, I was. They work, at least for 20-30 years. Can electric cars work that much? Even if they don't, what about battery replacing? Is it cheap?

I don't know man, what if their batteries go completely nuts after 5 years, or even 3 years? But I have watched some tesla long reviews, they have been using those cars for 5 years, at most they lose %10-15 of the battery in that time. It seems good enough? I change cars every 5 years or so. But,mining lithium metal also uses CO2. Producing the battery also produces CO2.

On the other hand they seem soo much cheaper, at least in Türkiye. EV cars use around at worst, 20kW/100km That's around 5$ dollars if you charge at stations? If you charge at home, simply half that price. Whereas for oil it would use at least 8$ Too much start stopping? Then 10-12$

Last edited by recklessswing (2024-03-05 22:04:37)

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#2 2024-03-05 21:31:44

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,185  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Techno fixes for whatever titillate our ravenous appetites for SNS and keeps the economy running but that just digs the hole deeper. The solution is not more but less. Less of everything that we are taught to need and crave.

I have a very low carbon footprint. My car is over 10 years old and has less than 25,000 miles on it. The only airplane I have been on in the last 25 years was to attend the Devuan Conference in 2019. Otherwise, I have not been more than @30 miles from my house. Paradise!!

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#3 2024-03-05 22:02:23

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 257  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Electric cars are a good way to appease one's conscience without actually solving the problem.  On the surface, they seem to solve the environmental problem of dirty energy. However, manufacturing the battery requires the use of extremely toxic chemicals, and the battery itself contains very toxic materials that must be disposed of once its lifetime has passed.  Guess what they do with the batteries then.  That's right, heap it onto the landfills.  Which is just another way of polluting the environment.

Furthermore, charging said batteries for your trip requires a source of energy.  Some of this energy may come from "clean" sources like hydroelectric energy. But a lot of it comes from toxic sources like nuclear power plants or the burning of coal.  Hydroelectric energy alone isn't nearly enough to meet the world's hunger for more power.  So even if you ignore the battery issue, the act of driving an electric car ultimately boils down to more pollution of the environment.

There is no winning this game.  It's called thermodynamics, and no matter how you try, you'll never get free energy. Energy has to come from somewhere; none of the known "clean" sources of energy have a high enough yield to satisfy the world's demands.  Either that, or it's just too darned expensive to be feasible.  As long as the energy demand remains at current levels, you'll never solve the pollution problem.  The best you could do is to shift it from one type of pollution to another, like shift from burning gasoline to burning coal or using nuclear power plants.

The only way to fix the real problem is to change our lifestyle.  From an energy-hungry lifestyle to an energy-conserving one.  Unfortunately, humans are unlikely to adopt such a solution.  Just like maintaining a healthy diet, the vast majority would rather pop a magical pill or buy some miracle scam drug or so-called "super food" (that changes every 10 years), do anything but change their bad habits and unhealthy lifestyles.  Instead of changing an unhealthy diet people would rather eat the same unhealthy food as they always have, and then order a Diet Coke in order to appease their conscience.  Electric cars are the automobile equivalents of Diet Coke: they let us continue the same unhealthy lifestyles that we've always lived, while letting us pat ourselves on the back that we're, oh, burning less gasoline.  In the meantime, pollution continues to increase and the environment continues to deteriorate.

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#4 2024-03-05 22:08:10

recklessswing
Member
From: Türkiye
Registered: 2020-12-18
Posts: 89  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Nuclear energy is actually green energy, if you do it right. I think there is next gen energy tech, which is called fusion, or fision reactors? I don't know, but China was working on it lately. It is much much more efficient they say.

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#5 2024-03-05 22:58:15

GlennW
Member
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2019-07-18
Posts: 601  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Nuclear energy production creates waste, that waste remains radio active waste for a very, very long time,

and remains dangerous to biological life...

IMO, I wouldn't call it Clean, unless they changed the definition of that word too.

Last edited by GlennW (2024-03-05 22:59:04)


pic from 1993, new guitar day.

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#6 2024-03-05 23:08:50

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,185  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Random  thought . . . If we do not stop replicating, the choices we make will determine how the herd is culled.

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#7 2024-03-05 23:30:30

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 257  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Nuclear energy is "clean" in the same sense that burning gasoline is "clean" after several hundred thousand years, when the effects of its burning have all but subsided or become indistinguishible from the de facto state of the environment then.

"Clean" fusion has been a dream since the dawn of nuclear technology. So far, it has yet to materialize.  I'm not holding my breath.

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#8 2024-03-06 06:44:58

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 356  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Electric traction? Sure. We've had that in various forms for ages, and advances in battery technology have now made it viable (if still a mite explodey) for the private automobile.
Electric traction as the solution to anthropomorphic climate change on the other hand... That's just another episode of the same old consumerist "magic pill" bullshit... See quickfur's excellent coverage above.

Now, that's not to say I wouldn't want to own an electric vehicle. They do have some advantages, particularly where relatively clean electricity is cheap and charging infrastructure isn't woefully inadequate.

However... As far as I can see, it's next to impossible to really own any modern vehicle, regardless of powerplant. So if someone would like to point out an EV that isn't a rolling spyware platform full of obnoxious "safety" features designed explicitly to piss me off and prevent my vehicle from doing what I tell it to, I'm listening...
Otherwise I'll stick to my simple, obedient '70s and '80s tech. No cameras, no GPS, no manufacturer phone-home or remote killswitches, no feature subscriptions, no touchscreens, no driver attention monitoring, and most important of all, no goddamn incessant beeping about every trivial thing.

As for fission vs (fossil fuel) combustion, "clean"ness and timescales... Sure. The only missing component there is that we have some viable solutions for processing and containing spent fission fuel on the table. Carbon capture and storage on the other hand is a complete joke if you take even a cursory look at the numbers (and volume) involved.

Last edited by steve_v (2024-03-06 06:53:00)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#9 2024-03-06 07:53:45

oui
Member
Registered: 2017-09-02
Posts: 305  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

it is the wrong way! more than 100 years ago did e-cars also had appreciate and because of different questions, they were no success and it was right so.

in all parts of the world win the desertification new surfaces and has plenty sun to produce H2  this would be a more intelligent use of the resources of the world and would permit to other poor countries deals (surface and security for money!)

but we also have to reduce the weight of cars and to limit the speed of them! we have to prefer one-person-plus-one-child cars against those terrible SUV's being in mode since 2000!

think please about that: Germany, the country having attacked the others several times and thus created the military consumption of steel and having the responsibility of the greenhouse effects

has YET NO speed limit and drive effective with Porsche, BMW, etc unresponsible speeds...

for THIS REASON did the humanity never learn to consider how precious is  the energy for us all and for the next generations!

when the Martians arrive on earth, they will be terrified of our stupidity

I drive 1100 km/month = 13200 km/y

bicycle, at 78 y.

My son, at 40 y (he is physician, has of course driving license (for cars (but also for big river boats!)), did never buy a car and go to the hospital (4 .. 7 km one way, often more than ones / day if to much patients etc.) always with bicycle.

Completely stupid person continue to use car on distances where a bicycle does easily the same!

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#10 2024-03-06 08:34:09

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 413  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Electric cars are not 'green', they use a large amount of energy & materials to create their batteries, the cars themselves also.

What happens when one has a crash? The battery is part of the main construction, & apart from maybe bursting into flames, could also leak toxic chemicals.

We've seen what happens with electric bikes & scooters, they burst into uncontrollable fires!

There was also quite a major fire in a multi story car park somewhere, which, I think, was down to an electric car catching fire.

No, pedal power, with appropriate gearing, &/or kick scooting is the real solution to our pollution problems! wink

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#11 2024-03-06 09:10:11

bai4Iej2need
Member
From: Ortenau
Registered: 2021-04-25
Posts: 101  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

I sold my car last week.
I have a public transport ticket and a bicycle and two legs still in good order.
At least here it is possible to have no car and still come around. 
NO Car is better than ANY Car from the environmental view.
and Railway is better than Street traffic from the environmental view.
and no traffic is better than any traffic from the environmental view.
Use your choices.

Electric traction

has been around since 1879 on the railway with now only 20% of the energy consumption of the trucking industry.


The devil, you know, is better than the angel, you don't know. by a British Citizen, I don't know too good.
One generation abandons the enterprises of another like stranded vessels. By Henry David Thoreau, WALDEN, Economy. Line 236 (Gutenberg text Version)
broken by design :
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … bug=958390

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#12 2024-03-06 10:09:59

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 585  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

With transport, the whole question is in geography. An electric car in sub-zero temperatures is a problem (in practice), but a bicycle is good if your terrain is as flat as a table.

Population... Experiments have already been carried out on mice; ideal conditions have been created for them. At first the population grew from tens to several thousand, then they became lazy, lost their taste for life and died out completely.

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#13 2024-03-06 10:27:10

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,105  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Electrical cars as currently built will turn out to be a dead end.

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#14 2024-03-06 10:27:17

yeti
Member
From: I'm not here: U R halucinating
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 310  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

I've no problem with the "electric" in general, but I'd have no power line near my parking space and using public charging stations just would increase the ankle bracelet function of these modern spy-phones on wheels.

The Y2014 model I currently have probably is the last one I can get without the now mandatory call home function on emergencies/crashes which I do not trust to only phone home then.  It even has only a classic radio instead of an android media centre!  And with only needing to see a gas station 4..5 times a year, a switch to something different just does not calculate for me.  Luckily!

May it last long and meanwhile: Public transport please improve!

Ok ... I'm pro electric, but I claim you just can't get such a thing without being permanently traced.


<𝚋𝚘𝚍𝚢 𝚘𝚗𝚕𝚘𝚊𝚍='𝚍𝚘𝚌𝚞𝚖𝚎𝚗𝚝.𝚋𝚘𝚍𝚢.𝚒𝚗𝚗𝚎𝚛𝙷𝚃𝙼𝙻="𝙳𝚒𝚜𝚊𝚋𝚕𝚎 𝙹𝚂!";'>
𝔓𝔩𝔢𝔞𝔰𝔢 𝔩𝔢𝔞𝔳𝔢 𝔶𝔬𝔲𝔯 𝔣𝔞𝔲𝔩𝔱𝔰 𝔦𝔫 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔰𝔢𝔠𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 𝔟𝔢𝔩𝔬𝔴 𝔞𝔫𝔡 𝔡𝔬𝔫'𝔱 𝔣𝔬𝔯𝔤𝔢𝔱 𝔱𝔬 𝔲𝔫𝔰𝔲𝔟𝔰𝔠𝔯𝔦𝔟𝔢!

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#15 2024-03-06 11:14:18

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 356  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

sun to produce H2

Ahh the old hydrgen drum...
* Extremely low energy density.
* Requires exotic tankage or cryogenics for any attempt to overcome (1)
* Is very, very energy inefficient to produce by any current "green" process (which is why most industrial hydrogen is produced through reforming natural gas).
* Is a complete bastard to work with, as it's low molecular weight means it leaks through just about everything.
* Is arguably more dangerous than either petrol or lithium-based batteries, due to its broad explosive range.

If you want to use solar to run a car, frankly you're better off with batteries for most use cases.

one-person-plus-one-child cars

bicycle... bicycle... bicycle... ad nauseum

Tell that to people who need to move a couple hundred Kg of tools and equipment for their job... Or travel from outside of urban centres... Or have more than one child... Or a disability...  Or point-to-point freight in general for that matter... Or any number of other situations where tiny vehicles or bicycles are completely inappropriate.

"Pedal power" is part of the solution. It's a long way from the whole story. Likewise rail and electrified public transport.
Just continuing to shout "everyone needs to get on a bike" is exactly as effective as "everyone needs to get an EV", all it does is make transport of everything too heavy or distant to put on a bicycle somebody else's problem.

Driving a 2-ton SUV to get milk is patently ridiculous... But so is insisting that everyone should ditch their private vehicles and "just get a bike".

has been around since 1879 on the railway with now only 20% of the energy consumption of the trucking industry.

Indeed. Even leaving out the electric part and comparing diesel trains to diesel trucks it's no contest.
What trains can't do however is roll up outside your house with whatever tat you ordered on amazon 2 days ago. The current lazy online shopper generation is fuelling road transport pretty hard right now.

As ever, what people really want is a "Buy now and fix climate change"/"Spend and feel morally superior" button. Big corporate (and EV manufacturers) are of course all too happy to oblige, and governments to turn a blind-eye to how ineffectual all that is so long as they can be seen to be promoting something with a nice thick coat of green paint on it.

Meanwhile the real elephants in the room (of which private transport is decidedly small-fry) go conspicuously unnoticed, and the solutions we do have go unimplemented, largely due to being expensive or inconvenient - either personally or politically.

Last edited by steve_v (2024-03-06 11:34:30)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#16 2024-03-06 12:20:49

bai4Iej2need
Member
From: Ortenau
Registered: 2021-04-25
Posts: 101  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Just continuing to shout "everyone needs to get on a bike"

Didi anyone say that?
Just for me: I did  30000km in 6 years with my car, 5000 km / year (3000miles) and most of the time it is standing around for a week or so. A waste of resources.
I have 6 options : own car, train, bus, bicycle and walking and an electric rental car here in the village.
No car is MY economic solution.
I choose to live here because of the train station and not in the next village w/o train station.
Why should I keep a car (fuel or electric)?

Those with a huge toolbox and a selection of spare parts are a different task. They might have an electric workshop truck - on wheels .

Electric cars come with high capital cost and it is mandatory , that they roll all the time. Probably rental is the solution .
The old school "living far from dense population" becomes more and more uneconomic, when cheap fuel disappears.
And transport without modal change is also a thing of the past, when transport chains can be organized by internet.


The devil, you know, is better than the angel, you don't know. by a British Citizen, I don't know too good.
One generation abandons the enterprises of another like stranded vessels. By Henry David Thoreau, WALDEN, Economy. Line 236 (Gutenberg text Version)
broken by design :
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … bug=958390

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#17 2024-03-06 15:44:39

czeekaj
Member
Registered: 2019-06-12
Posts: 154  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Well as far as I see it,
I will keep short as we are getting old smile
But electric cars + computers. Hard to service batteries. Probably has a lot of capacitors ext.
Even gas and diesel now have modems in them with front and rear facing cameras. With radio antennas of course for oldschool radio. Machines built to wardrive by factories owned by a harlot in a world of supply chain issues.
The Gas and diesel you can pull out fuses like tar out of a tin can. Also the wireless keys act as a RFID ofcourse they can tag nearby devices almost certainly.
I'd say western manufactures are probably the worst but the ecosystem you'd have to talk to a mechanic how he feels about it.

I'd say they are not worth the price they are asking for. Also heated seat subscriptions classic.

as far as energy crisis. Well, lithium will be non-renewable. We should of had liquid thorium reactors being built in the 60's to 70's but they wanted fast breeders for their weapons potential. But we can conserve things like copper, like golinux says. Less things is more room for knowledge and growth.

It's like vegas a fountain in the desert, completely unsustainable, it's not a question of what makes the water flow but who provides it.

Last edited by czeekaj (2024-03-06 15:54:26)

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#18 2024-03-07 22:58:19

prospero
Member
Registered: 2023-03-26
Posts: 36  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

GlennW wrote:

IMO, I wouldn't call it Clean, unless they changed the definition of that word too.

Note how they do not call it "clean", but "green".

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#19 2024-03-08 00:28:04

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 257  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

What does "green" even mean anymore, these days everybody has their own definition. 😆

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#20 2024-03-08 00:37:52

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,185  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

"Green" is marketing hype . . .

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#21 2024-03-08 00:59:33

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 257  

Re: What do you think about electric cars?

Exactly.

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