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#1 2017-05-15 20:42:47

MiyoLinux
Member
Registered: 2016-12-05
Posts: 279

The future of 32bit and Devuan?

I realize that this subject probably isn't of dire importance at this point, but I thought I would go ahead and throw it out here. wink

I have a couple of people (who are still using 32bit computers) whom I've gotten interested in Devuan. Both of them expressed interest in whether Devuan plans to continue 32bit support for the foreseeable future.

Has this subject been broached at all yet? If so, what was the consensus if I may ask?

Thank you!


I have been Devuanated, and my practice in the art of Devuanism shall continue until my Devuanization is complete. Until then, I will strive to continue in my understanding of Devuanchology, Devuanprocity, and Devuanivity.

Veni, vidi, vici vdevuaned. I came, I saw, I Devuaned. wink

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#2 2017-05-15 21:15:48

greenjeans
Member
Registered: 2017-04-07
Posts: 355
Website

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Curious about this myself. 32 bit still actually runs faster on older low-spec 64 bit machines, running it on this one.

I'd probably make 32 bit versions of anything I do if I knew for sure it would be supported for at least a few more years.  There's a mega-ton of used laptops in pawnshops everywhere right now for dirt cheap that would run good on 32 bit Devuan.


https://sourceforge.net/projects/vuu-do/
Vuu-do GNU/Linux, minimal 64 and 32 bit Devuan-based openbox and mate systems to build on, maximal versions if you prefer your linux fully-loaded.

Please donate to support Devuan and init freedom! https://devuan.org/os/donate

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#3 2017-05-15 21:51:57

smoki
Member
Registered: 2017-05-15
Posts: 56

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

I think that depends if Debian LTS will support 32bit... that is bit in concern even for Jessie, as they might decide not to provide LTS support for i386 for example. See the question mark (?) there:

https://wiki.debian.org/LTS

That means it is not yet decided if it will stay like that or what might get in or get out of LTS support, so even for Jessie LTS. Which in turn other than feasibility to support, also depends on interest of LTS paying customers i guess, blah, blah...

Jessie is fine, but newer GCC on Stretch shows i think a lot compiling specific issues on 32bit... so sounds like Jessie is last one feasable to be longterm supported.

edit: just my opinion, i am new here and not neither Devuan nor Debian dev... 32-bit LTS might be cut off, no guarantee on that before Debian's LTS architecture support announce.

But regular 3 year term supported ones would stay for 32bit of course.

Last edited by smoki (2017-05-15 23:30:47)

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#4 2017-05-21 00:29:55

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 157
Website

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

well 64 bits only work well for server and data huge systems, for a desktop people that only wants to see a movie.. its nonsense... neither for people that dont want leat with constants updates innecesary.. not all need stay connected to the network always!

so if the Devuan team depends on the Debian long life. its sad!

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#5 2017-05-22 15:37:51

FOSSuser
Member
From: Surrey/Hants border UK
Registered: 2016-12-11
Posts: 167

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

I don't think 32bit Linux is for the scrap heap just yet, nor 32bit BSD, there are still a lot of old machines running it out there, it would be too costly to just drop it, maybe in 20 years....... smile

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#6 2017-05-26 13:58:14

torp
Member
Registered: 2017-05-26
Posts: 1

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Another little data point - I plan to switch my homebrew router from Ubuntu 12.04 to Devuan some time this summer.
Problem is, its an Atom D2500 which may or may not be 64 bit. The CPU supposedly is, but it appears a lot of motherboards don't offer whatever is needed.
On the desktop CPU side, 64 bit support has been in everything since forever, but on the low power side... I'm not so sure.

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#7 2017-05-28 08:33:06

FOSSuser
Member
From: Surrey/Hants border UK
Registered: 2016-12-11
Posts: 167

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

I also have an Atom (64bit) based computer that has a 32bit bus, so needs a 32bit system, a bit annoying, but as it only has 1 or 2GB ram, it doesn't require a 64bit system.

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#8 2017-05-29 01:30:30

Somewhat Reticent
Member
Registered: 2017-04-06
Posts: 100

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Perhaps the motivation to deprecate support of older hardware comes from (new) hardware vendor "contributions"?

Last edited by Somewhat Reticent (2017-05-29 01:30:53)

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#9 2017-05-29 01:46:34

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 645

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Somewhat Reticent wrote:

Perhaps the motivation to deprecate support of older hardware comes from (new) hardware vendor "contributions"?

Contributions? Maybe.  That somehow seems very old fashioned.  I think it's more complicated than that.  There are those eager to have us use newer hardware that is compromised by trackers and snoopers and phone home 'features' that compromise our privacy and freedom . . .

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#10 2017-06-12 17:36:56

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 157
Website

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

golinux wrote:
Somewhat Reticent wrote:

Perhaps the motivation to deprecate support of older hardware comes from (new) hardware vendor "contributions"?

Contributions? Maybe.  That somehow seems very old fashioned.  I think it's more complicated than that.  There are those eager to have us use newer hardware that is compromised by trackers and snoopers and phone home 'features' that compromise our privacy and freedom . . .

obvously u have right!

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#11 2017-06-13 06:21:29

Somewhat Reticent
Member
Registered: 2017-04-06
Posts: 100

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Doesn't GNUinOS offer i386 ISOs?  And GoodLife?

Last edited by Somewhat Reticent (2017-06-13 07:15:47)

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#12 2017-06-14 01:45:36

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 157
Website

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Somewhat Reticent wrote:

Doesn't GNUinOS offer i386 ISOs?  And GoodLife?

i tested some devuan derivatives that still are in x86 but are still xtremely slower for playing mednafen snes... for most recent i386 seems good but not reproduce moder movies...

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#13 2017-06-14 06:50:43

Somewhat Reticent
Member
Registered: 2017-04-06
Posts: 100

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

mckaygerhard wrote:

i tested some devuan derivatives that still are in x86 but are still xtremely slower for playing mednafen snes... for most recent i386 seems good but not reproduce moder movies...

Game-console emulation takes serious horsepower, and so does audio-video encoding/decoding, right?  I'd expect i386 to seem extremely slow - always was, when asked to do modern hardware's job.  Adjust expectations, select appropriate targets.  Keep It Short & Simple.

Several distros have progressed from i386 to i486, i586, and finally i686 baselines for their 32-bit works.  Depends on what's needed, and what's available.  As noted, on identical hardware 32-bit software may well perform better than 64-bit - depending on the particular task.  It takes a fair amount of completely separate compilation, testing and storage to provide each architecture; resource limits may apply.

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#14 2017-06-14 10:04:09

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 157
Website

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

that its not true! see it in action> http://debianeepc2gsurf.blogspot.com/20 … disco.html

the code in mednafen and in linux now deprecated older hardware in favor of new and moder stuff,  also more code more cycles to compute..

an eeepc 2g its the most limited x86 hardware u can found today, apart of the K6-III or the C3 procesors, but eeepc are very limit due disc/less and less of expansion slots (in normal way)

as you can see in that blog, performs very well breath of fire 2 (very short game, BOF 3 for PSX are better)

a video where you can see it booting and playing more faster rather others http://debianeepc2gsurf.blogspot.com/20 … video.html

in this video i'm playing sSecret of Mana (secret of everimore) very well without glitches, in same Asus Eeepc that are x86 only hardware, the system just boot in 30 secons as video demostrates, the linux are Venenux

Last edited by mckaygerhard (2017-06-14 10:09:28)

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#15 2017-07-27 17:29:15

γραφω λογον
Member
Registered: 2017-07-27
Posts: 16

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

I prefer 32 bit for security reasons and would love to see this happen.

I recently acquired a Thinkpad T43 which I intended to use as a bit of  a museum piece to run legacy software far, far from the internet. I am shocked at how beautifully it runs Devuan. With a bit of education about less resource intensive alternatives to the most popularly used programs (palemoon instead of firefox, sylpheed instead of thunderbird and the like) it suits me just fine for the majority of my daily computing tasks.

My more powerful but less secure laptops can sit in a drawer with their batteries in a different drawer until I need them.

This suits me just fine. I would love to be able to continue to live this way. Unfortunately, I do not have the technical knowledge to know if this is a reasonable request to make of our developers, so this is just a show of hands and a thank you note if maintaining 32 bit support is something that they are able to do.


My English is still a work in progress; no offense was intended.

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#16 2017-07-27 18:34:54

darry1966
Member
Registered: 2017-06-14
Posts: 40

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Yes I have T42 Thinkpad I have Devuan running LXDE and it is mint.:)

Getting rid of 32bit support is ridiculous.  They are cheap to buy and still very useful.:)

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#17 2017-07-27 19:53:34

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 157
Website

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

yeah T42 i remenber have a fake video ram.. on older linuxes&xorg&xfree86 the amouont of video ram must be set manually to get proper support for see movies.. and play nintendo games emulator

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#18 2017-07-27 21:48:55

γραφω λογον
Member
Registered: 2017-07-27
Posts: 16

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Besides my T43, I also have two eeePCs, a T20, and two librebooted X60 tablet convertibles. Yea, I could take them to eWaste or turn them all into museum pieces but I don't want to.

My eeePC 900A is my itty bitty server when I plug in a USB drive and edit smb.conf. My 2gig surf is for public wifi instead of carrying a smartphone and also an exploration in minimalism and trying to get all my work done without using a GUI. One of my X60 tablets is for "antisocial networking", lol; I can access the internet for updates and to download software, I can go get whatever files I need from my server, but nobody can bug me when I want to be alone. The other X60 is my eReader. The T20 hasn't met Devuan yet but it might when I can pick up a spare hard drive for it.

It's not just about money, although I'm certainly less cautious and more willing to stretch my comfort zone when I'm learning how to work on inexpensive hardware than I would be with an expensive 64 bit machine.

Marketing is scary these days--they want me to want newer faster and shinier. They know more about psychology than I do. They want to increase the profits of their shareholders.

I want to be left alone to tinker and learn. My new-to-me T43 suits me just fine. It will be even nicer when I can get the sound working and learn more about what software does and doesn't work on it, maybe pick up a bigger drive, and everything else people always do when they get a new-to-them computer, but I like it and am beginning to have some hope that I can use it online for a long time to come.


My English is still a work in progress; no offense was intended.

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#19 2017-07-27 22:08:46

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 157
Website

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

umm the 900A as a server, its a waste of keyboard, mouse and monitor resources in a one piece..

maybe you need some trick, if you still using the solid state disk and the main disk as boot, need read carefully : http://debianeepc2gsurf.blogspot.com/

The complete overall in english https://friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php/de … -8g-laptop must take care of the filesystem and the mounted boot, also performance when deadlock happened

i think u put your eeepc into server due could not get more graphic power from it.. so you must read that blog..   there's some trick to made graphics runs faster, my son can play mario64 and Final Fantasy here

the only thing that i cannot do pleny, its browse the net, i only do basic thing like revise mail (in example gmail must use web html basic and works great)

i personally dont thing the performance in server mode will be great for and eeepc 32 bits..

i'm interesting to know if you can browse the web pleny with the T43?

Last edited by mckaygerhard (2017-07-27 22:11:31)

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#20 2017-07-28 23:02:05

γραφω λογον
Member
Registered: 2017-07-27
Posts: 16

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

mckaygerhard wrote:

umm the 900A as a server, its a waste of keyboard, mouse and monitor resources in a one piece..

< snip >

i'm interesting to know if you can browse the web pleny with the T43?

Much, much obliged. smile

The 900A has a lot more possibilities and has been neglected for way too long. The 2gigsurf is kind of what I do instead of sudoku so I'm thrilled to have some more brain candy.

I'm on one of the big guys right now, but the T43 is probably going to be my main workhorse for browsing the web. I just put on Icecat (freed Firefox; perhaps a tad lighter, but more full featured than Palemoon) and it's plenty peppy for me. I don't have a Linux-Libre kernel on it yet so I may lose functionalty of the internal wireless card when/if I do, but it can take a PCMCI card as well as a USB adapter.

I'm quite surprised by the little beast. I set up a T4X for someone else around '10-'11ish but I totally underestimated my new-to-me T43 when I acquired it and only planned to run legacy software on it and keep the internet far, far away. You know what John Lennon said about what you call that thing that happens while you're making other plans.

I don't have sound working yet, but that's not exactly a high priority (especially with fresh input for playing with my itty bitty eeePCs!!!!!) since I've got other hardware for playing music.

I've heard about speeding up the Eee PCs with a BIOS upgrade, but by the time I summoned up enough confidence to libreboot my X60s, I couldn't find the ROM. Looks like maybe you know where it is...or maybe some more tricks...

I'll be back after I have a peek. Both of them boot off of SD cards as well as the SSDs and two new 8 gig ones are on their way to be purpified.


My English is still a work in progress; no offense was intended.

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#21 2017-07-28 23:42:52

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 157
Website

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Much, much obliged.

well seems you dont have the proger setup/software if the reason are limits! as you can see in my blogs have varous hardware running impossible things.. ;-)

γραφω λογον wrote:

I don't have sound working yet, but that's not exactly a high priority (especially with fresh input for playing with my itty bitty eeePCs!!!!!) since I've got other hardware for playing music.

ahh no sound, that's explain why you have some performance.. my eepc have pleny sound and I can boast that i edited 320x240 videos in the openshot

seems that in that machines you dont run any that have pleny use of video or audio.. right? except by the firefox, a hungry memrory program, ...

I've heard about speeding up the Eee PCs with a BIOS upgrade, but by the time I summoned up enough confidence to libreboot my X60s, I couldn't find the ROM. Looks like maybe you know where it is...or maybe some more tricks...

false, speed up's are gained in other form, firs, dont waste your time, how you can speed up a hardware that are fixed to a certanly speed! the problem its the software, see my blog.. you must setup a lot of things and then gain the precious speed ups'

I'll be back after I have a peek. Both of them boot off of SD cards as well as the SSDs and two new 8 gig ones are on their way to be purpified.

the SDD needs other little setups, part of them are in the links that i give to you in the previous post

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#22 2017-09-28 03:03:00

JoshuaFlynn
Member
Registered: 2017-09-09
Posts: 48

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Heavy user of antiquated technology over here. I'm lucky in that most kit I use has both 32 and 64 bit support, but I'd still encourage 32 bit support (paradoxically, it's easier to VM emulate a 32 bit on a 64 bit machine for development purposes, but for install purposes, it's easier to install a 32 bit onto a 64 bit machine).

Depending on Devuan's motives, reasons for supporting 32-bit are multi-fold:

1) Poorer countries that rely on older hardware (theirs is usually several steps behind ours, so are predominantly more likely to be 32-bit) can make use of the 32-bit architecture, allowing Devuan to support those in greatest need.

2) 32-bit tends to work even on 64-bit architectures. Which is excellent when it comes to Live CDs (especially the repair-the-OS kind), meaning ironically 32-bit has broader base than 64-bit.

3) Supporting the internal second hand market. A lot of second hand stores are shunning those trying to sell 32-bit because Windows and Mac have made a shove towards 64-bit only on a LOT of software, so they're unable to do fresh installs. On first glance you might ask 'Why would I care?':

3a) Weakening the second hand market encourages extremely wasteful practices when it comes to electronics, which in turn can both poison the environment (via dumped leeched toxic metals) and use up valuable resources (cobalt etc). This in turn relies on destructive mining practices to sustain (think child slavery in Niger).

3b) Not having 32-bit support reduces the number of viable (working) computers in circulation and thus reduces price competition, raising purchasing costs for the average user.

3c) Inverse strategem: because Microsoft with Windows and Apple with Mac are trying to dominate the 64-bit market, they've dumped 32-bit users with no support. If the Linux community offers that (and more specifically, Devuan offers that compared to other Linux distros now phasing out support), Devuan gains a unique niche-edge advantage by being essentially the only main viable alternative for 32-bit users. This in turn undermines Microsoft and Apple etc, because the 32-bit users don't immediately convert to the latest hardware (see 3a), and might remain Linux users even when they eventually do.

3d) Encouraging the second hand market helps local businesses to thrive, and takes the edge off an aggressive consumerist usage of raw materials, that, long-term wise, isn't sustainable.

4) A lot of older hardware in use by small scale and even certain types of large scale businesses (think hideous industrial SCADA systems) still use extremely outdated hardware (some running, if you want to poop your pants, Windows 95). Maintaining 32-bit support offers a 'security exit' that said companies wouldn't have (at time of writing only one Hydroelectric dam has switched to a Linux SCADA, but it's likely not going to be the last). The alternative is said companies stick to pre-existing old software that has no security patches, ever. Companies likely hosting you and everyone else's data. (Why wouldn't a business upgrade to 64-bit: If it's sufficiently small finance wise but relies on a lot of machines IE 32-bit laptops, the cost of replacing that in the hundreds can be financially unviable).

5) Assuming a decent cross-compiler configuration is done, some cases merely involve switching the bittype flag. Others compile both by way of design. This could ironically be automated on a 32-bit system.

6) If you're a crazy conspiracy theorist like moi, you don't necessarily want the latest tracking tech they dole out until someone has had a chance to dig through and trash the vulnerabilities (or expose them to huge unpopularity, cough, systemd, cough). Intel's Management Engine is still a huge pain in the arse.

7) Open source and libre based hardware often has to use pre-existing and proven technologies (read: extremely out-of-date) to keep production costs low. The market hasn't yet taken off (with eye-watering price tags of $700+ for some systems), but those small portable systems still need 32-bit support from a like-minded open-source piece of kit. If want to aid our privacy, we still need to support the guys taking the big risks with the actual hardware itself.

8) Footprint size. But only in edge cases (see 7).

9) Devuan would be aiding any spin-off OSes by providing a baseline for them to work from. This might not seem beneficial to Devuan at first glance, but if they're looking to escape systemd, Devuan can benefit from all the additional supporters it can get.

Other than that, I could understand if Devuan opts to go trendy and avoid the maintenance issues of 32-bit (I'd rather have a systemd-free 64-bit Devuan than no Devuan at all trying to cover both bases), but there's certainly a case to be made for paradoxically supporting 32-bit. Just think how long XP has survived. Obviously not an issue now, but it's worth considering abstract circumstances as well.

Last edited by JoshuaFlynn (2017-09-28 03:05:33)

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#23 2017-09-28 03:47:27

soohwa
Member
Registered: 2017-08-21
Posts: 3

Re: The future of 32bit and Devuan?

Just for my personal case, I need 32 and 64 bit because I have to build executables on both.

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