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#1 2020-05-04 08:15:42

puma
Member
Registered: 2020-03-18
Posts: 3  

debuan below stable

When will you release the new building?

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#2 2020-05-04 11:25:58

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 668  
Website

Re: debuan below stable

When it's ready... tongue


"Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher." — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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#3 2020-05-09 13:46:23

bimon
Member
Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 67  

Re: debuan below stable

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

When it's ready... tongue

Earlier "release when it's ready" was a feature of good old Debian too,  but after Debian was occupied by some corpo minds it was forced into a regular release cycle with very bad quality even of so called "stable" branch. To get Debian 7/8 stable enough we had to wait it to pass into an oldstable state before it was a good idea to upgrade. Most likely Debian developers were forced to integrate systemD unnoticeably and ASAP to not allow users to understand what happened.

It is very pleasant to see Devuan returned to good old method of releasing software when it is actually ready.

Most likely Devuan and Slackware are the only distributions left in existence who follow right release pattern from a reliability and stability point of view.
Does anyone know any other Linux distribution without systemD the same stable as Devuan and Slackware?

Even OpenBSD and Alpine do regular releases, but at least they to not require systemD which is also good of them.

As for other significant OpenRC capable distros like Gentoo and Arch - they all do rolling updates without snapshots of stable releases - hardly suitable for production.

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-10 06:52:16)

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#4 2020-05-09 14:29:35

anticapitalista
Member
Registered: 2018-06-10
Posts: 8  

Re: debuan below stable

bimon wrote:

Does anyone know any other Linux distribution without systemD the same stable as Devuan and Slackware?

Yes. antiX!

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#5 2020-05-09 21:23:06

darry1966
Member
Registered: 2017-06-14
Posts: 63  

Re: debuan below stable

bimon wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

When it's ready... tongue

Earlier "release when it's ready" was a feature of good old Debian too,  but after Debian was occupied by some corpo minds it was forced into a regular release cycle with very bad quality even of so called "stable" branch. To get Debian 7/8 stable enough we had to wait it to pass into an oldstable state before it was a good idea to upgrade. Most likely Debian developers were forced to integrate systemD unnoticeably and ASAP to not allow users to understand what happened.

n.

Yep totally agree that is what I like about Devuan as well doesn't follow the release cos we have too, wait until things are sorted.  Debian used to have good releases like Jessie, Wheezy, Stretch...

Buster being released with this Dpkg being broken to me was a real let down.  I read all the release notes tried all the work arounds and could not get the complete result that I needed for everyday use.  I am stunned frankly that it was not corrected before release.  Really not good enough.

Anyway enough of that - thank goodness for Devuan (and I realise it is a small team) - keep up the great work.

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#6 2020-05-10 01:08:19

bimon
Member
Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 67  

Re: debuan below stable

anticapitalista wrote:
bimon wrote:

Does anyone know any other Linux distribution without systemD the same stable as Devuan and Slackware?

Yes. antiX!

They mention it is possible to connect and use Debian repositories with antiX, but how is it possible then to keep installation free of systemD without Devuan like patches? Does antiX magically wipes out systemD from Debian automatically?  Then all Devuan and Slackware developer's work is a waste of time?

What is release cycle for antiX?

How does antiX relate to MX Linux with release cycle described at:
https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=45313

?

Where is a package list and search for MX and antiX ?

Competition is always good for improving a quality of competing products like Devuan, especially good is MX based on Debian too, I have already looked at MX about a year ago but did not consider it any serious enough.

Hm, it seems antiX is dependent on Devuan work and MX is not pure free of systemD, so actually they do not add anything as a fail-over choice above Devuan and Slackware?

Then most real work to clean out code infected by systemD is done in Devuan and most likely even Slackware reuses it?

Wishing Patrick and MX/AntiX guys would join to Devuan instead of fighting alone. On the other hand without diversity we could end up with something what already happened to Debian.

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-10 14:43:41)

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#7 2020-05-10 08:59:08

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 668  
Website

Re: debuan below stable

bimon wrote:

how is it possible then to keep installation free of systemD without Devuan like patches?

They pin systemd to -1 and have a separate "nosystemd" repository for packages that usually depend on systemd but are repackaged without that dependency.

bimon wrote:

it seems antiX is dependent on Devuan work

Not directly, they just take advantage of the elogind package that the Devuan developers helped introduce into Debian.

bimon wrote:

All real work to clean out code infected by systemD is done in Devuan and most likely even Slackware reuses it, e.g. eudev.

Gentoo are responsible for eudev: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev

And please stop referring to systemd with a capital "d", it's really beginning to get to me...


"Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher." — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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#8 2020-05-10 10:13:59

bimon
Member
Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 67  

Re: debuan below stable

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

And please stop referring to systemd with a capital "d", it's really beginning to get to me...

I just use this notation to better indicate it smile sorry for inconvenience.

Does systemD bring more harassment than original systemd?

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-10 10:47:02)

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#9 2020-05-10 14:16:13

anticapitalista
Member
Registered: 2018-06-10
Posts: 8  

Re: debuan below stable

Just to point out that antiX is a lot older than Devuan and released a systemd-free version before Devuan did.
We cleaned systemd out the code before Devuan.

But that isn't really the point.

Debian Buster is much easier to keep systemd out than its predecessor was.
This is due to the work carried out by the Debian init-diversity group (some of whom are also devs/coders for Devuan).

You do know that Devuan uses the Debian repos don't you?

BTW - I'm not here to criticize Devuan. They chose what they think is the best way to build a systemd-free distro.
Good luck to them and I do admire their work.

Last edited by anticapitalista (2020-05-10 14:22:27)

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#10 2020-05-10 14:41:32

bimon
Member
Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 67  

Re: debuan below stable

anticapitalista wrote:

You do know that Devuan uses the Debian repos don't you?

Sure, full Devuan repositories are built dynamically by merging Debian and Devuan specific repos.

I wonder how to get a copy of all Devuan packages on DVD ISOs, so that together with corresponding Debian ISOs it would be a complete set of debs for a specific release like all debs from ASCII + Stretch ?

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#11 2020-05-10 14:45:20

bimon
Member
Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 67  

Re: debuan below stable

anticapitalista wrote:

Just to point out that antiX is a lot older than Devuan and released a systemd-free version before Devuan did.
We cleaned systemd out the code before Devuan.

Can you please compare your release cycle to Debian, Devuan and Slackware and indicate the differences?

Do you have a non rolling repository?

Do you have any large users for their production servers?

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-12 02:00:40)

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#12 2020-05-12 00:59:18

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,912  

Re: debuan below stable

I split this thread which got very OT.  The rest of it is now here.

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