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#1 2019-12-14 23:08:03

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

new encroachments of our least favourite init

steve litt mentioned gentoo today, that wasnt expected.

also this week, puppy linux (one of the simplest ways to avoid systemd, as it is trivial to build your own version-- even from ubuntu, and it never needed systemd before) dropped systemd-udev into testing.

these are two distros known for doing a great job of resisting, which are suddenly showing signs of giving in. are there others that people here know of? ones that dont have systemd yet, but might in the near future?


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#2 2019-12-14 23:40:59

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,856  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Windows 11?  Couldn't resist.

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#3 2019-12-14 23:41:46

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

golinux wrote:

Windows 11?  Couldn't resist.

fair answer.

actually the way windows is going these days, the idea of systemd making it into whats left of "windows" in the future isnt as ridiculous as it really ought to sound.

Last edited by freemedia2018 (2019-12-14 23:42:46)


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#4 2019-12-14 23:57:52

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 132  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

freemedia2018 wrote:

steve litt mentioned gentoo today, that wasnt expected.

I've contacted the Gentoo PR people about this to get some official statement from them. (no idea who this steve fellow is btw, do enlighten me if you can smile )

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#5 2019-12-15 00:34:48

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,856  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

He, I and a few others raised hell on debian-users and FDN prior to the first GR.  He's a regular on skarnet's supervision list.

https://www.mail-archive.com/supervisio … arnet.org/
http://www.troubleshooters.com/ 
https://www.freelists.org/archive/modular-debian/

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#6 2019-12-15 01:17:04

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 132  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Hmmm, interesting chap, it appears wink

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#7 2019-12-15 06:05:30

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 160  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

easyos has sysv and systemd, so that is maybe why they dropped systemd-udev into testing. Its not exactly a puppy linux from the distrowatch blurb says, but borrows a lot from it.

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=easyos

Last edited by HevyDevy (2019-12-15 06:08:01)

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#8 2019-12-15 09:15:41

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

HevyDevy wrote:

easyos has sysv and systemd

oh thats good to know.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#9 2019-12-15 09:52:48

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 36  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Slackware probably still avoids systemd.

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#10 2019-12-15 11:28:47

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 548  
Website

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Just by way of reassurance, Alpine Linux currently dominates the container market and that is fundamentally incompatible with systemd thanks to their musl libc base.


"Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher." — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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#11 2019-12-15 12:36:33

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 160  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Just by way of reassurance, Alpine Linux currently dominates the container market and that is fundamentally incompatible with systemd thanks to their musl libc base.

Voidlinux a close second imo. Ive tried alpine in the past but everynow and then i would get lockups using it and also on the voidlinux musl libc iso's, only on my laptop though, i have a nuc that void musl is on and has been going really well for the past few months.

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#12 2019-12-15 12:57:12

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 548  
Website

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Yes, Void is more focused on desktop use and their musl version will also be immune to infection :-)


"Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher." — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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#13 2019-12-15 13:10:04

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 160  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Yes, Void is more focused on desktop use and their musl version will also be immune to infection :-)

Im looking forward to seeing how trident goes forward with voidlinux as base, they are testing out  musl libc on their alpha stage, so they may have something in beta next year with zfs on root and musl libc.

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#14 2019-12-15 13:10:42

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

not too impressed with void, its one of the distros ive remixed. using that to type this. wouldnt recommend it to anybody.

the one thing i will say for it is that there basically isnt a shred of systemd. good job there.

# find / | grep temd
find: '/run/user/1000/gvfs': Permission denied
/run/cgmanager/agents/cgm-release-agent.systemd
/usr/share/mime/text/x-systemd-unit.xml
#

monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

Offline

#15 2019-12-15 13:13:52

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 160  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

freemedia2018 wrote:

not too impressed with void, its one of the distros ive remixed. using that to type this. wouldnt recommend it to anybody.

the one thing i will say for it is that there basically isnt a shred of systemd. good job there.

# find / | grep temd
find: '/run/user/1000/gvfs': Permission denied
/run/cgmanager/agents/cgm-release-agent.systemd
/usr/share/mime/text/x-systemd-unit.xml
#

what are you not impressed with?

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#16 2019-12-15 15:12:21

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

HevyDevy wrote:

what are you not impressed with?

the repos and the reliability of upgrades.

apt has its limitations, and im not a fan of those. but running apt is pretty reliable. when i do updates on void at any time, i know it can hose the entire system, and the commands are relatively esoteric. ive used lots of package managers. not happily, as im never looking at these just for me, but also for people i would recommend the distro to.

i dont update ANYTHING on void without a backup of Every Single File on the system, so that when it finally hoses basic utils like cp and cat and libraries that leafpad needs, i can at least boot live and copy that stuff back.

is there a better way? i dont doubt it. but its too complex for me to absorb myself into void linux culture, the documentation isnt terribly friendly either, i work with lots of distros. ultimately if the system is too complicated i just move on. nice of them to fix the system issues, but they added a bunch of others, imo. fine if youre a geek and love things like pacman and portage. im trying to prove that gnu/linux is friendly. i guess you need apt for that. maybe im being unfair, and just "dont like rolling releases." thats possible as well.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#17 2019-12-15 22:26:50

ChuangTzu
Member
Registered: 2018-06-13
Posts: 148  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

freemedia2018 wrote:

steve litt mentioned gentoo today, that wasnt expected.

also this week, puppy linux (one of the simplest ways to avoid systemd, as it is trivial to build your own version-- even from ubuntu, and it never needed systemd before) dropped systemd-udev into testing.

these are two distros known for doing a great job of resisting, which are suddenly showing signs of giving in. are there others that people here know of? ones that dont have systemd yet, but might in the near future?

I read steve's post on the mailing list and also noticed he did not provide a link/source of his claim regarding systemd.  A search on gentoos forum did not produce any evidence of his claim.

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#18 2019-12-15 22:28:06

ChuangTzu
Member
Registered: 2018-06-13
Posts: 148  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Camtaf wrote:

Slackware probably still avoids systemd.

There is no systemd in Slackware 14.2 or older nor in -current (v.15).  PV and crew have no plans on including it either.

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#19 2019-12-16 01:16:29

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

ChuangTzu wrote:

I read steve's post on the mailing list and also noticed he did not provide a link/source of his claim regarding systemd.  A search on gentoos forum did not produce any evidence of his claim.

this is true. and my feeling about "tips" like this is that if the person (steve litt is someone ive admired for years, both his candor and his attitude) is known for good information, then a tip isnt proof, its just something to check out.

so im not calling on people to grab pitchforks and go to the gentoo forums and demand answers, i hoping to find more information soon. one piece of information i might find is someone saying they looked for information and couldnt find any. that counts as a tip as well. if i cant find anything, i may look into how steve got this wrong. considering that i do put some stock in what he says (i never assumed he was infallible, people generally arent) id like to look into this further before i assume his tip is without merit. that was always a possibility though.

EDIT: i dont know exactly what steve meant, though ive learned enough that maybe he has a point:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Talk:Syste … vs_SystemD

systemd is optional https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Wit … ager_setup |

but... https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Wit … lled_in.3F https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_depen … on_systemd

i dont know if these are the sort of thing hes referring to. if these prove his point, thats good enough. if they dont, its still (imo) worth trying to find out what he was talking about. at a certain point just asking him to clarify or hint further is perfectly reasonable. maybe its reasonable now.

Last edited by freemedia2018 (2019-12-16 01:26:53)


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

Offline

#20 2019-12-16 05:28:43

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 132  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Which is why I fired an email towards the Gentoo PR people so we can get an "official response" from Gentoo directly. The email has yet to be answered, but given that it's only 2 days and weekend to boot (s'cuse the (bad) pun tongue ) I'm not too bothered about that, for now.

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#21 2019-12-16 10:21:18

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 160  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

freemedia2018 wrote:
HevyDevy wrote:

what are you not impressed with?

the repos and the reliability of upgrades.

fair enough, though in my experience voidlinux has gotten a lot better in this regard.

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#22 2019-12-16 14:48:33

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Dutch_Master wrote:

Which is why I fired an email towards the Gentoo PR people so we can get an "official response" from Gentoo directly. The email has yet to be answered, but given that it's only 2 days and weekend to boot (s'cuse the (bad) pun tongue ) I'm not too bothered about that, for now.

i would be very interested in hearing more. if and when you do, naturally.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

Offline

#23 2019-12-16 15:23:44

geki
Member
Registered: 2019-02-04
Posts: 25  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Well, I am with Gentoo on my server and lurking in gentoo forums. Some of their users do not like what happens with the OpenRC project, me neither. I keep the old version 0.17 on my server, just for example. Since I am not good with politics talk and such, I just give some links you may follow/read:

Google search on f.g.o.: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A … rc+william

Most interesting threads found (on a quick glance):

systemd discussion: agree to disagree: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1 … t-175.html

williamh pushing usr merge: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1 … t-100.html

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#24 2019-12-16 16:08:01

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 132  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

freemedia2018 wrote:

i would be very interested in hearing more. if and when you do, naturally.

I shall, of course. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it wink

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#25 2019-12-16 16:40:45

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: new encroachments of our least favourite init

Dutch_Master wrote:
freemedia2018 wrote:

i would be very interested in hearing more. if and when you do, naturally.

I shall, of course. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it wink

at this point im so curious what he meant, i intend to ask him anyway.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

Offline

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