The officially official Devuan Forum!

You are not logged in.

#1 2019-12-08 22:26:04

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 194  

This should be fun...

Just posted on Slashdot:

Debian Begins Vote on Supporting Non-Systemd Init Options

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/12/ … it-options

Last edited by sgage (2019-12-08 22:28:02)

Online

#2 2019-12-09 00:04:22

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 66  

Re: This should be fun...

do we know the timeframe on this? when does it close?


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

Offline

#3 2019-12-09 00:05:59

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 194  

Re: This should be fun...

freemedia2018 wrote:

do we know the timeframe on this? when does it close?

I believe it's 20 days.

Online

#4 2019-12-11 01:54:43

aut0exec
Member
Registered: 2018-11-21
Posts: 71  

Re: This should be fun...

Voting period starts      2019-12-07 00:00:00 UTC
     Votes must be received by 2019-12-27 23:59:59 UTC

Top of the ML message.

That's an interesting set of choices to say the least.

Offline

#5 2019-12-11 08:17:43

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 119  

Re: This should be fun...

Yup. And reading through the options it's clear that whomever wrote them is obviously intent on getting Debian into the systemd-exclusivity-zone ASAP. Yes, the default option is "more discussion" but only to wear out any pro-init-choice supporters until they give up their resistance or leave the Debian project. Note that the clarification of option 6, which makes it mandatory for Debian dev's to support multiple init-systems, is very, very short indeed, especially in light of the others which favour systemd.

But that's just my interpretation smile

Offline

#6 2019-12-11 10:59:01

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 425  
Website

Re: This should be fun...

Dutch_Master wrote:

whomever wrote them

Each individual option was submitted by a named Debian developer who had the backing of several supporters.

The full list of names is in the official announcement: https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002

Option E seems to be what most folks here would want, the developers can select just that and leave the other options unvoted if they want to. That's all I'm saying about this.

EDIT: corrected link.

EDIT2: s/Option D/Option E/

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2019-12-11 11:10:29)


SJW for hire, usual rates apply

Offline

#7 2019-12-11 12:31:07

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 119  

Re: This should be fun...

Ah, thx for clarifying that.

Anyway, I do hope it's clear my preference would be to get Debian to move away from systemd and its lock-in of FOSS, like many here I s'pose, but I'm afraid that won't happen as it's not an option in that ballot sad

Offline

#8 2019-12-11 13:00:10

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,319  

Re: This should be fun...

I'm not clear on what this means:

Majority Requirement

The proposals need a simple majority

Offline

#9 2019-12-11 13:31:10

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 133  

Re: This should be fun...

fsmithred wrote:

I'm not clear on what this means:

Majority Requirement

The proposals need a simple majority

Doesn't have much information in regards to this.

Im guessing majority rules on proposals A through H. So if the majority vote in favor of (for example) A, then it is to be done?

Offline

#10 2019-12-11 13:38:49

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 425  
Website

Re: This should be fun...

fsmithred wrote:

I'm not clear on what this means:

Majority Requirement

The proposals need a simple majority

From section A.3 of the constitution:

Options which do not have an explicit supermajority requirement have a 1:1 majority requirement.

So that would be >50% (I think).

But the counting is complicated, see section A.6 for the full breakdown:

https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution#item-A


SJW for hire, usual rates apply

Offline

#11 2019-12-11 14:23:19

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 133  

Re: This should be fun...

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
fsmithred wrote:

I'm not clear on what this means:

Majority Requirement

The proposals need a simple majority

From section A.3 of the constitution:

Options which do not have an explicit supermajority requirement have a 1:1 majority requirement.

So that would be >50% (I think).

But the counting is complicated, see section A.6 for the full breakdown:

https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution#item-A

simple and super majority. Talk about complicating matters. Debian is headed for the knackers yard if they keep this shenanigans up. Whats next, ultramajority and superultrasuprememajority, sigh.....

Offline

#12 2019-12-11 16:37:01

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,319  

Re: This should be fun...

OK, I read A.6 and if I read it again, I'm sure I'll get a headache.

I think we're screwed. As I see it, there should only be two options on this vote:
1. systemd only
2. some kind of support for other inits.

Then if 2 wins, figure out the details.

Offline

#13 2019-12-11 17:43:53

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 194  

Re: This should be fun...

fsmithred wrote:

OK, I read A.6 and if I read it again, I'm sure I'll get a headache.

I think we're screwed. As I see it, there should only be two options on this vote:
1. systemd only
2. some kind of support for other inits.

Then if 2 wins, figure out the details.

Exactly. But this way they can make it come out any way they want :-/

Yes, I think we're screwed.

Online

#14 2019-12-12 01:09:09

aut0exec
Member
Registered: 2018-11-21
Posts: 71  

Re: This should be fun...

fsmithred wrote:

OK, I read A.6 and if I read it again, I'm sure I'll get a headache.

I think we're screwed. As I see it, there should only be two options on this vote:
1. systemd only
2. some kind of support for other inits.

Then if 2 wins, figure out the details.

Yea... Was wondering this exact thing when reading through the options. Lots of fragmented options for non-systemd.



If Debian goes full systemd, what will this mean for Devuan?

Offline

#15 2019-12-12 01:24:24

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 194  

Re: This should be fun...

aut0exec wrote:
fsmithred wrote:

OK, I read A.6 and if I read it again, I'm sure I'll get a headache.

I think we're screwed. As I see it, there should only be two options on this vote:
1. systemd only
2. some kind of support for other inits.

Then if 2 wins, figure out the details.

Yea... Was wondering this exact thing when reading through the options. Lots of fragmented options for non-systemd.



If Debian goes full systemd, what will this mean for Devuan?

Surely that is the question...

Online

#16 2019-12-12 01:34:23

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,805  

Re: This should be fun...

sgage wrote:
aut0exec wrote:

If Debian goes full systemd, what will this mean for Devuan?

Surely that is the question...

We'll need less yammering and more hands on deck to do actual work.

Offline

#17 2019-12-13 03:59:04

aut0exec
Member
Registered: 2018-11-21
Posts: 71  

Re: This should be fun...

golinux wrote:
sgage wrote:
aut0exec wrote:

If Debian goes full systemd, what will this mean for Devuan?

Surely that is the question...

We'll need less yammering and more hands on deck to do actual work.

I'm in as always. Just not sure where I can help or how to get started really. Would love to help work fixes into SysV just don't possess the coding background at current to be of much use there, ha.

Offline

#18 2019-12-13 04:29:37

yeti
Member
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 166  

Re: This should be fun...

Have a look at how FreedomBox handles this: https://discuss.freedombox.org/c/contributor-invites

Maybe publishing a list with open problems that itself is a bit less verbose already would be good enough for Devuan?


"I toggle, therefor I am." — Clock Bit.
"There is no PLANET-B!" — ???
"Vrijdag voor VT100!" — Yeti.
"Stop slavery! Free all mitochondria!" — Yeti.

Online

#19 2019-12-13 05:25:08

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,805  

Re: This should be fun...

aut0exec wrote:

I'm in as always. Just not sure where I can help or how to get started really. Would love to help work fixes into SysV just don't possess the coding background at current to be of much use there, ha.

Reality check.  I didn't own a computer (which I didn't really want - it was a gift) till I was near 60.  I had zero technical background.  Then I wanted to "do things" so I taught myself . . . html and css from scratch in a text editor, graphics, audio and video editing, desktop theming etc .  If I didn't like something, I figured out how to fix it, even hacking the registry in my windoze days because I wanted things MY way.  My appetite for learning new things and experimenting may not be as voracious as it was all those years ago and tbh, I couldn't pull a bash script out of my head without DDG but I still manage to contribute to Devuan.  I bet you could find a niche that suits you if you looked hard enough.

Offline

#20 2019-12-13 05:29:33

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,805  

Re: This should be fun...

yeti wrote:

Have a look at how FreedomBox handles this: https://discuss.freedombox.org/c/contributor-invites

Maybe publishing a list with open problems that itself is a bit less verbose already would be good enough for Devuan?

Lists of what needs doing has never worked very well.  What works is someone seeing/experiencing a problem, figuring out how to fix it and sharing.

Offline

#21 2019-12-13 15:13:04

GNUser
Member
Registered: 2017-03-16
Posts: 508  

Re: This should be fun...

Here is the actual proposal: https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002
I've been watching this closely. Voting ends on December 27.

This year I learned to use OpenBSD and also Tiny Core Linux 64-bit (they call it "Pure64" for some reason). Both of these operating systems are completely immune to systemd nonsense. It doesn't hurt to have options...

Tiny Core uses Busybox init and is minimalistic in every regard, but can be built up to be a full desktop replacement OS. It has been my daily driver since August 2019 and at this point I've added enough polish to it that it does all I need. Warning: It is very much a do-it-yourself OS, similar to Arch Linux but even more extreme in its minimalism. I think Devuan users would find TCL much to their liking.

Hopefully Debian will do the right thing and my wanderings will have been for naught!

Last edited by GNUser (2019-12-13 15:14:46)

Offline

#22 2019-12-14 10:23:03

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 133  

Re: This should be fun...

GNUser wrote:

Here is the actual proposal: https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002
I've been watching this closely. Voting ends on December 27.

This year I learned to use OpenBSD and also Tiny Core Linux 64-bit (they call it "Pure64" for some reason). Both of these operating systems are completely immune to systemd nonsense. It doesn't hurt to have options...

Tiny Core uses Busybox init and is minimalistic in every regard, but can be built up to be a full desktop replacement OS. It has been my daily driver since August 2019 and at this point I've added enough polish to it that it does all I need. Warning: It is very much a do-it-yourself OS, similar to Arch Linux but even more extreme in its minimalism. I think Devuan users would find TCL much to their liking.

Hopefully Debian will do the right thing and my wanderings will have been for naught!

How did you manage video drivers on Tiny Core?

Offline

#23 2019-12-16 04:10:45

GNUser
Member
Registered: 2017-03-16
Posts: 508  

Re: This should be fun...

With extensions/packages. I don't think it would be appropriate to take up space on Devuan's servers to go into great detail here. If you decide to try it and need help, start a thread on forum.tinycorelinux.net or send me a personal message there (my user name is GNUser there, too).

Everything you need to know to get started is in the gratis e-book "Into the Core":
http://www.tinycorelinux.net/corebook.pdf

Offline

#24 2019-12-16 10:18:28

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 133  

Re: This should be fun...

GNUser wrote:

With extensions/packages. I don't think it would be appropriate to take up space on Devuan's servers to go into great detail here. If you decide to try it and need help, start a thread on forum.tinycorelinux.net or send me a personal message there (my user name is GNUser there, too).

Everything you need to know to get started is in the gratis e-book "Into the Core":
http://www.tinycorelinux.net/corebook.pdf

Ok fair enough, thanks.

Offline

#25 2019-12-28 12:34:00

aut0exec
Member
Registered: 2018-11-21
Posts: 71  

Re: This should be fun...

golinux wrote:
aut0exec wrote:

I'm in as always. Just not sure where I can help or how to get started really. Would love to help work fixes into SysV just don't possess the coding background at current to be of much use there, ha.

Reality check.  I didn't own a computer (which I didn't really want - it was a gift) till I was near 60.  I had zero technical background.  Then I wanted to "do things" so I taught myself . . . html and css from scratch in a text editor, graphics, audio and video editing, desktop theming etc .  If I didn't like something, I figured out how to fix it, even hacking the registry in my windoze days because I wanted things MY way.  My appetite for learning new things and experimenting may not be as voracious as it was all those years ago and tbh, I couldn't pull a bash script out of my head without DDG but I still manage to contribute to Devuan.  I bet you could find a niche that suits you if you looked hard enough.

Fair enough! I'll keep looking around. One thing that has come to mind as of late is Init scripts. Seems support for them has been dwindling (gitea recently cause me enough headaches with an outdated init script).

Offline

Board footer