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#1 2019-08-28 17:56:07

inukaze
Member
Registered: 2018-01-28
Posts: 84  

Websites with Arguments against systemd

Exploit 1 -> https://thehackernews.com/2019/01/linux … ploit.html
Sucks -> https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/
Biggest Fallacies -> http://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09 … acies.html
Bloatware -> https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2016/05/1 … ing-worse/
Arguments against systemd -> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.p … st_systemd [Note : not always active]
dhcpv6 rce -> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/10/2 … hcpv6_rce/
Startup & Shutdown -> http://www.softpanorama.org/Commercial_ … temd.shtml
Exploit 2 -> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/3 … d_exploit/

This all url i get from Artix Linux Web Page.

i love this article -> https://ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2017 … of-devuan/

from years ago i think SystemD just convert GNU/Linux into GNU/Windows ME+Vista+8 , yes the worst versions of that operating systemd because the innecesary complexity, and the fails, and the security holes, and slowdown the distros, and too make bigger the binaries executables compiled against glibc.

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#2 2019-08-28 18:27:31

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,738  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

Are we really going down this road again?  IMO the best analysis of all is here.  Not a "website" but nails the issues in one post:

http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/ker … 02496.html

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#3 2019-08-28 18:53:21

inukaze
Member
Registered: 2018-01-28
Posts: 84  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

golinux wrote:

Are we really going down this road again?  IMO the best analysis of all is here.  Not a "website" but nails the issues in one post:

http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/ker … 02496.html

I don't know this thank you very much for the link.

Well i am thinking on translate all that articles to my native lang, spanish, because on spanish don't have much information about this things in the mayority of cases, are just opinions without fundaments, and by that way it's nothing reliable.

On English exist a lot of articles about the theme, but in spanish just a few in comparation.

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#4 2019-08-28 19:59:25

foobarbaz
Member
Registered: 2019-08-28
Posts: 1  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

Most of the links you have made the rounds in the Linux world (several) times before and left the wider audience pretty much unimpressed. They have all pretty much failed to leave a lasting impression. Outside of the Devuan community people will just tell you to stop beating these dead horses.

Maybe you could try to highlight positive aspects of the many alternatives instead?

Knoppix recently moved away from systemd. Why did they do so? There must be something that they can do now that was impossible before.

How does runit enable what Void wants to do?

Maybe some tutorials on how to replicate some of the things that people consider unique to systemd with other init systems? Systemd just uses kernel features after all and any process can do that, too.

I would find such links way more helpful and convincing. And you do not come across as some old fart that is just annoyed that the kids are enjoying themselves.

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#5 2019-08-29 08:25:56

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 138  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

I'l just leave it here

https://ewontfix.com/14/

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#6 2019-08-30 11:24:04

masterpeace
Member
Registered: 2019-08-20
Posts: 9  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

runit is working great . i made a sata2 old pc boot devuan xfce under 25s (usually somewhere between 29~33s) . debian systemd on the other hand boot about (34~35) and have the boot crashed . or maybe i should install systemd on devuan ? since removing systemd from debian is a hassle . I run trial 5 times , and one of the systemd boot crashed (the first boot) . runit and sysVinit on the other hand have never failed a boot process .

MiyoLinux wrote:

I had to do a hard shutdown. It was stuck in an endless loop of "start job this" and "start job that".

this is what happened to my debian install too , but it repeated too fast and then slowing down and freezes .

btw that was the first time i ever crashed a boot . even my old windows 7 times never failed a boot .

should i increase the trial times ?

Last edited by masterpeace (2019-08-30 12:48:30)

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#7 2019-08-30 11:39:39

MiyoLinux
Member
Registered: 2016-12-05
Posts: 972  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

I recently tried a systemd Openbox distro on hardware. On the 2nd day, I needed to reboot. After 12 - 13 minutes (yes...seriously), I had to do a hard shutdown. It was stuck in an endless loop of "start job this" and "start job that".

I wiped it off my hard drive...


I have been Devuanated, and my practice in the art of Devuanism shall continue until my Devuanization is complete. Until then, I will strive to continue in my understanding of Devuanchology, Devuanprocity, and Devuanivity.

Veni, vidi, vici vdevuaned. I came, I saw, I Devuaned. wink

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#8 2019-09-02 10:35:31

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 138  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

The main argument against SystemD is... SystemD is proprietary software.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-sou … point.html

When we call software “free,” we mean that it respects the users' essential freedoms: the freedom to run it, to study and change it, and to redistribute copies with or without changes. This is a matter of freedom, not price, so think of “free speech,” not “free beer.”

These freedoms are vitally important. They are essential, not just for the individual users' sake, but for society as a whole because they promote social solidarity—that is, sharing and cooperation. They become even more important as our culture and life activities are increasingly digitized. In a world of digital sounds, images, and words, free software becomes increasingly essential for freedom in general.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sof … nt.en.html

With free software, the users control the program, both individually and collectively. So they control what their computers do (assuming those computers are loyal and do what the users' programs tell them to do).

Even when proprietary software isn't downright malicious, its developers have an incentive to make it addictive, controlling and manipulative. You can say, as does the author of that article, that the developers have an ethical obligation not to do that, but generally they follow their interests. If you want this not to happen, make sure the program is controlled by its users.

Facts:
1. Most (or even 100%) of SystemD supporters don't care about libre software. They care about open source corporate valuables.
2. SystemD is addictive, controlling and manipulative project. Addiction, control and manipulation are the only motivations of SystemD development. This is how SystemD is violating principles of freedom.

In total: SystemD is open source but proprietary software.

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#9 2019-09-16 20:27:30

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,738  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

This is a classic! Debian and Devuan from the  Parrot Project Blog

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#10 2019-09-21 05:10:04

Nili
Member
From: $HOME/♫♪
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 78  
Website

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

I will never use that worm on this life. I've been using it for a year at Debian, I know pretty much it will control the whole system soon or later.
That worm is the other face of svchost.exe nothing more nothing less.

Thank God there are still OS uninfected. Alpine, Crux, Gentoo, Void. There are BSD or Haiku OS.
So far, i have tried Alpine, Crux & Void. Of these three, I was very pleased by their installations, performance and the ability to create a clarity and honest system.

Here's the latest infection from the parasite.

I wish that Devuan would become a complete Independent of Debian one day. That would be a joyous event for me.


𝔻𝕖𝕧𝕦𝕒𝕟 / 𝔽𝕝𝕦𝕩𝕓𝕠𝕩 (lean & mean)

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#11 2019-09-21 07:33:38

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 41  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

@ Nili, seems like systemd just wants to take over the home now.  Also if one uses ext4 format on home, you can create file based encryption with loop back devices already.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ex … encryption

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#12 2019-09-21 09:32:44

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 326  
Website

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

Nili wrote:

Here's the latest infection from the parasite

Lennart actually describes it as home-on-a-stick in the video presentation, which amused me.

Portable, fully encrypted home directories with automated Yubikey authentication sound like a neat idea but it won't replace the traditional layout any more than systemd-networkd has replaced NetworkManager or Ceni.


Fabricando fit faber

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#13 2019-09-21 10:33:53

Nili
Member
From: $HOME/♫♪
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 78  
Website

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

Well, I know what's would be one day, I foresee it. I come from a time when things were different, limited but clean on table. For me it was the best time to use Linux OS. I feels more comfortable with then Linux or OS.

Day by day we lose control in something. Whatever systemd does now, Windows or MACOS have done for years. If i need something of those i'll use both gladly for different tasks.

Now someone (individual, or corporate) somewhere want's to make Linux systems ALL THE POSSIBLE part of evolution, or let say MAC or WINDOWS clone or rival because this move will make it better for the masses they'll do everything possible. I'm no one to stop them, i will only stop myself for using it.

They would have done better making something from scratch Instead of making layer over layers their data on existing system or systems.

I never talked about systemd anywhere bad or good. Today my cup fills me, those new existed but extended features that settle almost a month, Purge the old when the time comes on demand. Old is seen as enemy on eyes of some. I personally do not like it.

However until there are OS'es that do not accept this phenomenon, I will be on Linux wings, I'm afraid one day the systemd tentacle will extends on other systems like BSD, MAC or even Windows. I believe they will try hard, I have heard that they are interested in BSD. LOL

Sorry, i may sound as a rant, I did not want to turn it into war-systemd thread, well for many people those layer features of systemd are needed, let them taste, I have other goals myself.

Respects!


𝔻𝕖𝕧𝕦𝕒𝕟 / 𝔽𝕝𝕦𝕩𝕓𝕠𝕩 (lean & mean)

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#14 2019-09-21 11:18:13

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 326  
Website

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

Nili wrote:

I'm afraid one day the systemd tentacle will extends on other systems like BSD, MAC or even Windows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#systembsd

Not an official effort though: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=141135403820631&w=2

Nili wrote:

I believe they will try hard, I have heard that they are interested in BSD. LOL

At the moment the systemd package has a hard dependency on glibc and the corporate overlords are only really interested in maintaining the Linux dominance in the server & supercomputer markets. I don't think the Linux Foundation gives a crap about the desktop 'cos all the users are freeloading deadbeats. LOL.


Fabricando fit faber

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#15 2019-09-21 12:57:11

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,255  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Lennart actually describes it as home-on-a-stick in the video presentation, which amused me.

Me too. Been doing luks-encrypted home on a stick for years, with the additional feature of a read-only operating system. https://refracta.org/docs/readme.refracta2usb.txt
I don't have interchangeable UID's or automatic close-luks-on-suspend. You'll have to turn the laptop off when you go through customs.

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#16 2019-09-21 13:40:47

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,255  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

Whoa! OK, so gdm is going to manage access to this encrypted home, user records will be json files to be more compatible with the internet (wtf?), and when you convert the json to a more traditional format, some metadata will be lost. (i.e. you won't see all that's in the user record.) 

What does "Queriable via Varlink interface." mean? Is it time to put on my metal hat?

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#17 2019-09-21 16:58:27

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 326  
Website

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

fsmithred wrote:

What does "Queriable via Varlink interface." mean?

https://varlink.org/

I do like the resource control provided by systemd's interfaces for slices & control groups: certain users could be given specific CPU & disk usage limits, which is nice.

This seems to be part of the developers' greater drive towards stateless systems. The next step is the removal of all /etc-based configuration files:

Lennart wrote:

When you need configuration files in /etc to work properly, consider changing your application to work nicely when these files are missing, and automatically fall back to either built-in defaults, or to static vendor-supplied configuration files shipped in /usr, so that administrators can override configuration in /etc but if they don't the default configuration counts.

So look out for the shift to /usr/share/apt/sources.list...


Fabricando fit faber

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#18 2019-09-27 14:51:40

Nili
Member
From: $HOME/♫♪
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 78  
Website

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

I'm glad i was wrong, because in BSD i see myself there more than Linux, although i am enjoying traveling on Alpine board atm.

Nili wrote:

At the moment the systemd package has a hard dependency on glibc and the corporate overlords are only really interested in maintaining the Linux dominance in the server & supercomputer markets. I don't think the Linux Foundation gives a crap about the desktop 'cos all the users are freeloading deadbeats. LOL.

Even i don't mind much about them until there is an open door.
I'm glad aswell there are still minimalistic distro for some that like to tinker a bit.

Thanks for the links, worth reading smile


𝔻𝕖𝕧𝕦𝕒𝕟 / 𝔽𝕝𝕦𝕩𝕓𝕠𝕩 (lean & mean)

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#19 2019-10-17 18:19:49

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 138  

Re: Websites with Arguments against systemd

https://hackaday.com/2019/10/16/pack-yo … -new-home/

In addition to user and user-based system management, the home directory itself will be linked to it as a LUKS encrypted container — and this is where the interesting part comes, even if you don’t see a need for a unified configuration place: the encryption is directly coupled to the user login itself, meaning not only is the disk automatically decrypted once the user logs in, it is equally automatic encrypted again as soon as the user logs out, locks the screen, or suspends the device. In other words, your data is inaccessible and secure whenever you’re not logged in, while the operating system can continue to operate independently from that.

It sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryptoLocker

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