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#1 2019-02-04 10:08:04

mirix
Member
Registered: 2019-02-04
Posts: 6  

Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

Hello,

I would like to know if any of the several Devuan Derivatives currently offers the option of installing a system based upon Devuan Beowulf / Debian Testing.

I am aware that some people have successfully upgraded their ASCII installation to Beowulf, but it seems a bit of a messy solution. AntiX proposes a similar approach but I tried it and it was a bit of a mess.

I also know that there is a Beowulf installer but, currently, it seems to have issues as well.

Whereas for Debian stable we have excellent systemd-free alternatives such as Devuan or MX Linux, it would be very good to have one with more up-to-date software. Specifically, my problem with Devuan and MX is that often I have troubles compiling software that depends on more current versions of libraries.

Best,

Miro

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#2 2019-02-04 12:13:17

Panopticon
Member
Registered: 2018-01-27
Posts: 306  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

Testing repos are really only for testing purposes mirix, i think it sort of belies the ethos of debian/devuan if a bunch of distros popped up saying they are based on testing. There are unstable distros in debian which happen to be quite stable for the most part like siduction to name one, but they have a dedicated team looking after that distro with there own mirrors. Im not sure if devuan has unstable distros out there, i dont know. Mirrors are another problem, testing mirrors i think are only like one or two base mirrors? correct me if im wrong devuan devs etc?

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#3 2019-02-04 12:36:08

mirix
Member
Registered: 2019-02-04
Posts: 6  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

Thanks Panopticon. I understand that. I briefly used Aptosid and Siduction in the past.

Obviously, it is not a job for the Devuan core team.

Which is why I was asking about derivatives.

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#4 2019-02-04 13:29:44

MiyoLinux
Member
Registered: 2016-12-05
Posts: 963  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

I'll answer for myself! big_smile. tongue

I've made one, but it's hacked...and I'm not willing to release that to users. smile

A big step was made recently with Devuan's developers releasing working (testing) versions of policykit for Beowulf.

I don't know their plans, and I know consolekit has basically been dropped by any developers. I don't know if Devuan will continue to supply it or focus on elogind. I do know consolekit was not in the Beowulf repos the last time I checked. So that presents some issues for my derivative(s) using Beowulf as it is now.


I have been Devuanated, and my practice in the art of Devuanism shall continue until my Devuanization is complete. Until then, I will strive to continue in my understanding of Devuanchology, Devuanprocity, and Devuanivity.

Veni, vidi, vici vdevuaned. I came, I saw, I Devuaned. wink

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#5 2019-02-04 14:01:15

mirix
Member
Registered: 2019-02-04
Posts: 6  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

And what about a working (tested) how-to on how to decontaminate Debian Testing?

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#6 2019-02-04 15:45:19

Panopticon
Member
Registered: 2018-01-27
Posts: 306  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

mirix wrote:

And what about a working (tested) how-to on how to decontaminate Debian Testing?

maybe dont use debian.

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#7 2019-02-05 01:08:21

ChuangTzu
Member
Registered: 2018-06-13
Posts: 136  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

MiyoLinux wrote:

I don't know their plans, and I know consolekit has basically been dropped by any developers. I don't know if Devuan will continue to supply it or focus on elogind. I do know consolekit was not in the Beowulf repos the last time I checked. So that presents some issues for my derivative(s) using Beowulf as it is now.


Consolekit is replaced with Consolekit2 which is maintained by Xfce team. 

https://erickoegel.wordpress.com/2014/1 … nsolekit2/
https://github.com/ConsoleKit2/ConsoleKit2/releases
https://consolekit2.github.io/ConsoleKi … 6757772400

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#8 2019-02-05 02:22:34

MiyoLinux
Member
Registered: 2016-12-05
Posts: 963  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

ChuangTzu wrote:
MiyoLinux wrote:

I don't know their plans, and I know consolekit has basically been dropped by any developers. I don't know if Devuan will continue to supply it or focus on elogind. I do know consolekit was not in the Beowulf repos the last time I checked. So that presents some issues for my derivative(s) using Beowulf as it is now.


Consolekit is replaced with Consolekit2 which is maintained by Xfce team. 

https://erickoegel.wordpress.com/2014/1 … nsolekit2/
https://github.com/ConsoleKit2/ConsoleKit2/releases
https://consolekit2.github.io/ConsoleKi … 6757772400

Thanks ChuangTzu.

I've looked into consolekit2 recently. It wasn't in the Beowulf repos when I checked...unless I typed it wrong. LOL!

pkexec works with consolekit and lxpolkit on my ascii builds. If I upgrade one from ascii to Beowulf, consolekit remains. I can then remove elogind, and everything works again.

If I make a straight beowulf build, and try to install consolekit from ascii, it wants to remove a lot of other things. tongue

Plus, my shutdown utility uses consolekit. I've tried to find what commands are used with elogind for shutdown, reboot, etc., but can't find what I'm looking for yet. tongue

Sorry for rattling on...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!


I have been Devuanated, and my practice in the art of Devuanism shall continue until my Devuanization is complete. Until then, I will strive to continue in my understanding of Devuanchology, Devuanprocity, and Devuanivity.

Veni, vidi, vici vdevuaned. I came, I saw, I Devuaned. wink

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#9 2019-02-05 04:36:29

mirix
Member
Registered: 2019-02-04
Posts: 6  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

I just wanted to point out that, nowadays, there isn't a current systemd-free Debian-based distro.

So, either:

1.- You stick to MX or Devuan with old software.
2.- You migrate to Debian testing or derivatives (Ubuntu) with systemd.
3.- You move away from Debian entirely.

In fact, I may give Artix a go.

In the meantime, seeing that a few of the Devuan derivatives seem pretty redundant, why don't join efforts and produce a testing-based distro which would really address currently unmet needs?

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#10 2019-02-05 05:23:30

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,710  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

mirix wrote:

In the meantime, seeing that a few of the Devuan derivatives seem pretty redundant, why don't join efforts and produce a testing-based distro which would really address currently unmet needs?

Devuan (and Debian) are about stability not shiny new stuff.  Devuan will always a bit behind because of the cleanup that we have to do.  Maybe there will eventually be a Devuan derivative based on testing like Ubuntu is to Debian but that would take a much deeper developer pool than we currently have on deck.   In the meantime, backports supplies newer packages without the risk of a testing environment.  You might also want to read what MX Linux considers to be systemd free.

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#11 2019-02-05 05:54:43

mirix
Member
Registered: 2019-02-04
Posts: 6  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

golinux wrote:

Devuan (and Debian) are about stability not shiny new stuff.

Three things:

1.- MX empowers the users to decide. It provides options and systemd is opt-in.

2.- Debian also used to provide options and still does to some extent. One exception being systemd, which is pretty hard to avoid/remove. In that particular respect, who knows why, they have chosen the tyrant way.

3.- It is not at all about "shinny stuff". For different reasons, I need to compile a lot of software for my work like scientific code and machine-learning stuff like Tensorflow. Some of that code you can build in any system, old or new, because the developers use stable OSs such as Debian, or, more often, RHEL or derivatives. However, most of the developers are running more current systems such as Ubuntu, Gentoo or Arch and, very often, their code depends on newer versions of several libraries than the ones you can find in Debian stable. Of course, you can install them locally and link against them anyway or use containers. However, from a practical point of view, it is a lot faster and easier if you can just compile most of the code without having to go down that road (think, for instance, about the dependencies of the dependencies and so on). This essentially forces me to use Ubuntu (Mint Xfce) at work, if I want to be productive.

Linux is not just server administrators and desktop users/distro-hoppers. There is life in between. There is also us scientists, engineers, developers, audio/video creators, designers, architects and other technical professionals. Let's say workstation users, for short. Typically, we need a trade-off between stability and currency.

Traditionally, we have been a minority but, with the advent of so called artificial intelligence our numbers are growing exponentially.

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#12 2019-02-05 06:11:28

MiyoLinux
Member
Registered: 2016-12-05
Posts: 963  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

As far as I know, I don't think it's actually possible to have a true rolling "testing" version of Devuan (for now).

Devuan advises using the release code-names in the repos; such as, jessie, ascii, beowulf, or ceres...and advises against using stable, testing, unstable (as Debian can use).

I guess one could upgrade to ceres (the unstable branch) and have a rolling release. I know there are those who have. I've done it in the past just to see how it would go. I had no problems with it back then, but I didn't keep it for long. I'm always using all of my partitions on my build computer for different things. tongue


I have been Devuanated, and my practice in the art of Devuanism shall continue until my Devuanization is complete. Until then, I will strive to continue in my understanding of Devuanchology, Devuanprocity, and Devuanivity.

Veni, vidi, vici vdevuaned. I came, I saw, I Devuaned. wink

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#13 2019-02-05 07:15:12

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,710  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

mirix wrote:

1.- MX empowers the users to decide. It provides options and systemd is opt-in.

That should be qualified as "for now" because it is only a matter of time before other init systems will be dropped and the systemd dependencies will be so pervasive that Debian won't work without it.

mirix wrote:

2.- Debian also used to provide options and still does to some extent.

That noose is tightening.  sysvinit is only still viable because of collaboration between Debian and Devuan devs and upstream.   Many apps no longer provide scripts compatible with sysvinit because most of the devs no longer have it installed to test.

mirix wrote:

3.- It is not at all about "shinny stuff". For different reasons, I need to compile a lot of software for my work like scientific code and machine-learning stuff like Tensorflow. Some of that code you can build in any system, old or new, because the developers use stable OSs such as Debian, or, more often, RHEL or derivatives. However, most of the developers are running more current systems such as Ubuntu, Gentoo or Arch and, very often, their code depends on newer versions of several libraries than the ones you can find in Debian stable. Of course, you can install them locally and link against them anyway or use containers. However, from a practical point of view, it is a lot faster and easier if you can just compile most of the code without having to go down that road (think, for instance, about the dependencies of the dependencies and so on). This essentially forces me to use Ubuntu (Mint Xfce) at work, if I want to be productive.

Linux is not just server administrators and desktop users/distro-hoppers. There is life in between. There is also us scientists, engineers, developers, audio/video creators, designers, architects and other technical professionals. Let's say workstation users, for short. Typically, we need a trade-off between stability and currency.

Traditionally, we have been a minority but, with the advent of so called artificial intelligence our numbers are growing exponentially.

Interesting . . . thanks for that.

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#14 2019-02-05 09:37:11

mirix
Member
Registered: 2019-02-04
Posts: 6  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

I agree with points 1 and 2. Maybe what we need is an alliance with the BSD guys so that everybody uses the same non-systemd init system.

However, the problem has deeper ramifications than init alone. The problem is that everything else is starting to depend on systemd: from desktop environments to drivers.

And the world as we knew it becomes narrower and narrower...

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#15 2019-02-05 16:52:40

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,710  

Re: Derivatives based upon Beowulf/Testing

mirix wrote:

However, the problem has deeper ramifications than init alone. The problem is that everything else is starting to depend on systemd: from desktop environments to drivers.

Exactly and implied in my point 2.  I like to call those dependencies "tentacles".   It is because of them that Devuan exists.

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