The officially official Devuan Forum!

You are not logged in.

#1 Other Issues » Linux systemd Affected by Memory Corruption Vulnerabilities » 2019-01-10 21:24:08

Replies: 5 … tches-yet/

The bugs exist in 'journald' service, tasked with collecting and storing log data, and they can be exploited to obtain root privileges on the target machine or to leak information. No patches exist at the moment.

Edit: If you want to follow the fun on Slashdot (or add to it): … atches-yet

#2 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-15 21:26:56

golinux wrote:
Ron wrote:

golinux wrote:
And desktop users are NOT our target audience

This statement has me baffled. Do you mean desktop as in Desktop Environment, or as in desktop versus laptop?

Systemd is more of a threat to the stability of servers than the desktop and that is what prompted the VUAs (Veteran Unix Administrators) to fork Debian.  They run clusters of servers that power the internet and businesses. Here's an early description of the fork by one of our VUA developers (which is a bit outdated because Devuan has evolved).  This is the audience that Devuan was intended to target.

Other Devuan users are minimalists who tinker and do amazing things putting together elements in a very unique and creative way often for older hardware.   These Devuan users may never see a Desktop Environment.  So a full blown DE is irrelevant to them.

I do not fall into either category.  I am a desktop user but like it my way which is neither Ubuntu nor Mint because they insult my intelligence and personal aesthetic.

Devuan ships with DEs because users have stepped up to unravel the systemd dependencies for the DE of their choice and do the theming.  I am an Xfce user so theme it to my liking (and hopefully others).

It seems that some folks, including esr, have trouble wrapping their head around the notion that not everyone/every project wants to 'be the biggest' and 'conquer the market' and 'attract the maximum number of newbies' and so forth and so on. It's all about 'winning' something or other, all or nothing, zero-sum.

I am not a VUA, but I am a VUUser, and I have come to understand and value greatly what Devuan is going. In fact, the more I understand it, the more I appreciate it. In my dotage, I prefer to use MATE, and I am very grateful to those who have made it available for non-systemd.

#3 Re: Devuan » Why are pulseaudio files present in Devuan? » 2018-12-14 17:45:56

spartrekus wrote:
golinux wrote:
Ron wrote:

I agree with spartrekus that pulseaudio is crap. I avoid anything made by its author.

The error is that he described pulseaudio as non-free software.  No one dislikes pulseaudo more than I.  But just as systemd is free software so is pulseaudio according to the license (if not the spirit).  All his other complaints are also not true.  So it is indeed "bullocks".  There is no non-free software in the "main" repository.  non-free has to be enabled in order to install proprietary blobs.  Under certain circumstances, blobs are available if needed during the OS installation procedure.

The meaning of "Free" can take several definitions.

One can be also "free" to accept everything in Windows 10. One point of view about meaning of free, since one has choice.

It can be harmful and free. A trojan can be made with source code available + with GNU General Public License, Version 3. Then, it will enter the stable release.

"“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

Perhaps we need to stick with one definition of 'free' at a time, or find a better way of distinguishing between 'free as in beer' and 'free as in freedom', among other possibilities. People say 'free' to mean one thing, and in their next sentence use 'free' to mean another thing. AFAIK, 'free as in FSF definition' is at least formally defined. But I agree, it's kind of a mess.

#4 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-12 00:44:03

golinux wrote:
Centurion Dan wrote:

There is no reason that Devuan can't or shouldn't have an audience appeal that also caters to the *buntu | Mageia | Mint type of user - ie those that just want something that is simple to install and works well out of the box.

I think that creating something simple that works OOTB should fall to derivatives much as 'buntu and Mint are derived from Debian.  In fact, Devuan has considered offering just a base install  leaving all the "niceties" - ie desktopy things - to derivatives.  Even now, there is a quite a list of derivatives to suit different needs with each having their loyal following.  I still think that would be the best way to go.  Perhaps some day you could provide a "Centurion" derivative that manifests your vision!!

If this forum and our ML were overrun with 'buntu refugees, I think we would lose much of our core base that has made Devuan so unique.  That's exactly what happened in 2013 on the Debian forums when they started catering to n00bies.  There was a HUGE exodus when many (if not most) of the knowledgeable users left the sinking ship.  It's been all downhill from there.

Devuan is in many ways, the ark that is preserving the knowledge of what Debian was and could have been.   Please let's not turn it into another 'buntu for the masses.

Uvuantu. ;-)

#5 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 20:18:20

ianbruene wrote:

Several parts of your response are correct, or could be argued back and forth. But those would be a distraction from this which I cannot understand:

sgage wrote:

(your criteria, btw)

My criteria is "systemd is bad". Everything I have ever seen or heard about Devuan is that its purpose for existence is based on the idea that "systemd is bad". The Devuan front page starts its sales pitch with "Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd.". The statement of intention to fork is about the failure of Debian to avoid systemd.

If Devuan isn't about preventing the complete takeover of systemd (even if just in a small corner of the linux world) then it is the greatest snowjob since the invention of politics.

If it is about avoiding systemd then how could the scenario of systemd being completely unavoidable be anything but a failure? How could the scenario of systemd being mothballed and replaced by something better be anything but a win? These are not "my criteria"; they are the necessary boundary conditions based on the stated goals of the project.

You simply can't seem to express yourself without hyperbole and totalizing language.

Devuan is of course about preventing the complete takeover of systemd, in the sense of preserving the possibility of non-systemd distros. By 'your criteria' I was referring among other things to your predicating that on Devuan out-competing Ubuntu. And you go off about 'greatest snowjob' yadda yadda.

If systemd were to go away, of course that would be a win. Is it the only win? I don't consider it a 'necessary boundary conditions based on the stated goals of the project.' That is your criterion. That's what I mean.

#6 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 17:20:14


Even if it were the goal, Devuan will never out-compete Ubuntu, because $$$ and marketing if nothing else.

The goal of the Devuan project, as far as I can tell, is to keep the choice open of using the init system of your preference - it's not 'conquering', and 'winning', and 'out-competing'. It may not be the mass-market anti-systemd distro - not the goal. In fact, a stated goal is that others take the Devuan infrastructure and build other distros based on it. You know, the way Ubuntu is based on Debian. Maybe one of those will end up being the 'mass market anti-systemd distro'.

But all the apocalyptic verbiage about Glorious Last Stands, and closely defining your success and failure criteria (your criteria, btw), etc. betrays, in my opinion, a lack of understanding of what the Devuan people are trying to accomplish. They are doing their best with limited resources, growing slowly and carefully (as far as I can tell - I am not in any kind of inner circle). Your comment, along with ESR's original posting, are casting this as a battle royale, good vs. evil, etc.  Meanwhile, Devuan devs are doing their jobs, talking with Debian people, and otherwise pursuing their goals, the main one of which is choice, and not allowing systemd to just foreclose all other options.

#7 Re: Off-topic » The only thing I don't love about Devuan » 2018-11-30 23:07:09

Just FYI, someone posted a link to this thread in Debian User Forums/General Discussion.

#8 Re: Off-topic » The only thing I don't love about Devuan » 2018-11-29 14:54:03

I know what you mean. I have never encountered a more gratuitously user-hostile tech forum than Debian Forums. Even in the Beginners subforum, asking a simple question, even just trying to ask if something is a known issue, opens yourself up for all sorts of abuse, insults, mockery, etc. I don't understand how people get like that - seems it would be a miserable existence. Oh well.

ajhlinuxuser wrote:

I want to embrace the non-systemd world of new or forked Linux distributions, but I still want to understand and be competent with the "popular" distributions which use it.

So sometimes I ask the people in these other communities for help.  I am still quite new to the communities behind GNU/Linux, so I can't be 100% sure about this, but I have a pretty good hunch that the Devuan project has committed a fairly serious offense against the Debian community:

It looks like Devuan took all the nice people from Debian!!!  Every single one!!!

So.  Enough said.  I love everything Devuan, but you really should have left a few nice guys behind when you split.

Attached, please find an example of the current state at Debian Forums. … 29edit.png

#9 Re: Off-topic » KDE alternatives suggestions? » 2018-11-28 17:40:07

There are lots of options. I swear by MATE, others prefer XFCE, or lighter-weight window manager setups. If you've been using KDE for a long time, you will find that any other DE does things 'counterintuitively' - people always confuse 'intuitive' with 'what I'm used to after years of learning and using it'. There will be a learning curve. I think your best bet is to just try out a couple of different ones, see what you like.

Giorgos wrote:

Hi! :-)

I was using KDE for many ears (since the KDE 3 days).

Switching from Debian Jessie -> Devuan ASCII I installed KDE as usual.
This means of course, that I "upgraded" from KDE 4 -> 5.

Well...only to realize that today (4y. after KDE 5 release), KDE is at pre-Alpha quality.
KDE apps are still good (at least those who ported to 5), but the desktop itself (Plasma), although it uses a small amount of RAM, is completely useless for everyday's use.
At its release notes mentions that "due to change of behavior, we expect some of our users may abandon the project".
Some??? Seems like most of the developers are gone for good. Bugtracker is malfunctioning and the forum seems to be dead! Not to mention that most of KDE websites, are frozen back in time even from KDE 4 days.

Personally after using KDE 5 for the last months I'm completely fed up and I'm searching for alternative desktops to replace Plasma. Red Hat's announcement for dumping KDE wasn't a big surprise for me. Who wants Alpha testing for every day's use?

I'm test driving LXQt and Trinity for the time being.

LXQt (installed from repositories) seems a typical lightweight linux desktop built with Plasma 5, which is a good thing for running smoothly my already installed KDE apps.

Trinity (installed from its PPA for Debian), is the good old KDE 3, maintained by Trinity developers.
It has a few problems, that I expect to go away, with the Beowulf release (which will be officially supported by Trinity).
One minor concern of mine, is that Trinity is still based on QT 3 (maintained by Trinity) and the transition to newer QT versions has still to be completed.

Any opinions?
Any suggestion for other desktops?

PS. My apologies to KDE fans, but although I love KDE and I was using it since I came to Linux world from Windows (ages ago), I still need something stable for my primary desktop.
PS2. I strongly disagree with KDE devs try, to push down the users throat the mobile interface!

#10 Re: Devuan » First impressions in Devuan » 2018-11-26 16:55:50

golinux wrote:

Well . . . a "tyro" might not know much of the backstory.  wink   Any objections to splitting off the Murdock stuff to a separate thread?  Not sure exactly where to put it though.   Suggestions?  Or maybe those posts should be nuked? Thoughts?

Maybe put the Murdock sub-thread in Off Topic?

#11 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » What games do you play on Devuan?? » 2018-11-26 00:18:08

golinux wrote:

I play solitaire.  big_smile

So do I! A rollicking round of Aisleriot is quite exhilarating! That's the extent of my 'gaming'.

No, I'm not a gamer... smile

#12 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Need a wireless dongle recommendation » 2018-11-13 16:29:16

GNUser wrote:

All wireless dongles from ThinkPenguin and Technoethical would work out of the box with Devuan because they run on libre firmware, which is included by default in any Debian/Devuan linux kernel. Both companies are great. The dongles are listed on each company's website as well as on the Free Software Foundation's "Respects Your Freedom" page ( There are tiny ultra-portable dongles (less expensive) as well as bigger ones with bigger antennas for increased range (more expensive).

All things being equal, go with whichever company is closer to you for shorter transit/faster delivery. ThinkPenguin is in the United States (New Hampshire) and Technoethical is in Europe (Romania).

Thanks for the pointers... I actually live in New Hampshire, so I guess I'll have a look at ThinkPenguin...

#13 Hardware & System Configuration » Need a wireless dongle recommendation » 2018-11-13 13:47:10

Replies: 3

I recently had fiber optic internet run to my house, except the router is at the opposite end of the house. My newer desktop computer has wireless built-in, and it works fine, but my older desktop, which I'd still like to use, does not. I'd rather not run 100' of cat 5 through the house, so I'd like to get a wireless dongle for it. However, there are many, many brands and models out there. Can someone recommend a relatively cheap model that is known to work easily with Devuan?

#14 Re: Other Issues » still running » 2018-11-08 12:17:50

golinux wrote:

It's dead here.

It's dead here now, too. It was running right through yesterday afternoon.

#15 Other Issues » still running » 2018-11-07 12:49:47

Replies: 2

There has been a notice at the top of the IRC log site declaring"

" will be shut down on November 5th, 2018. "

Here it is November 7th, and it seems to be still choogling along. What gives?

#16 Re: Other Issues » How to authorize for the IRC channel? » 2018-11-05 00:39:27

golinux wrote:

Thanks! I'm really a rank amateur at this IRC stuff - never really felt a need for it until lately. I thought maybe there was a #devuan-specific thing I needed, some sort of credential from Devuan. I will figure it out.

#17 Other Issues » How to authorize for the IRC channel? » 2018-11-05 00:09:50

Replies: 3

I used to be able to talk on the channel, but at some point, during the logging in, a message comes up: "**You might need to auth to nickserv  to talk!**"  How do I 'auth to nickserv' in Hexchat?

#18 Re: Off-topic » IBM is acquiring Red Hat! » 2018-10-29 13:41:31

Resistance is futile? We will be assimilated? sad

#19 Re: Off-topic » IBM is acquiring Red Hat! » 2018-10-28 20:03:32

Ron wrote:

Should we consider this as good news or bad news? Or neutral news?

As a Devuan user, I consider it neutral. Now, if they'd bought out Debian...

#20 Off-topic » IBM is acquiring Red Hat! » 2018-10-28 19:34:50

Replies: 9

IBM to Acquire Red Hat for $34 Billion … 34-billion

Imagine this headline back in the 90's...

#21 Re: Other Issues » snapd on Devuan Ascii? » 2018-10-28 02:54:09

golinux wrote:
GNUser wrote:

Flatpak and AppImages work fine in Devuan ASCII and Devuan Jessie . . .

Unfortunately.  I find the concept behind these all-in-one dropins distasteful to say the least.  It just doesn't feel right in Linux . . . </rant>

I agree completely. There seems to be some sort of Windows/Apple envy among certain factions of the Linux world that wants stuff like this. And systemd, for that matter. Solving problems that don't really exist...

#22 Re: Other Issues » snapd on Devuan Ascii? » 2018-10-28 01:19:52

Just curious - why do you need to run snaps?

#23 News & Announcements » The D in Systemd stands for 'Dammmmit!' » 2018-10-27 20:50:56

Replies: 2

An interesting new article in The Register:

The D in Systemd stands for 'Dammmmit!'

A nasty DHCPv6 packet can pwn a vulnerable Linux box
Hole opens up remote-code execution to miscreants – or a crash, if you're lucky. … hcpv6_rce/

#25 Re: Devuan » Your Rant Has Been Rendered... » 2018-09-29 22:01:59

thezeit wrote:

So... when I initially appeared here... golinux had mentioned a rant would be fun to read.

I did you one better. A 40+ minute video scathing the Pwnering and friends.

"Pwnering" is a trademarked pirated portmanteau of "Pwn" and "Poettering".

Warning! Mansplaining ahead!

Critical Note: Don't rebut me too hard in front of the normies. Deflating my enormous ego is counterproductive to the mission.

Just finished viewing your video - don't know whether to laugh or cry, but there were some droll moments for sure :-)  I think maybe I'll just go back to reading books and writing letters and stuff. I'm an older gentleman - I remember how to do this.

Loved the outro music...

Board footer

Forum Software