[SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

jue-gen · 2023-09-14 10:23:38

Question: is it as unproblematic to use testing or even unstable with Devuan as it is with Debian? For many years I used testing with Debian and for quite a long time also Sid. There were no real problems. But I was always careful with updates and upgrades. Now I am itching to try testing or even Ceres. Are the possible problems different than with Debian? Do I have to expect something that does not exist with Debian?

soren · 2023-09-14 10:48:02

I think it all depends on what you want to install and how you want to use testing and or unstable branches. Bleeding edge can be an issue from time to time, especially anything to do with gnome and kde desktop environments. I prefer setting up minimal desktop environments using bleeding edge branches, for example simple window managers like openbox and dwm and add tried and true software to them, learning how the x window system works to make full use of it instead of using 3rd party programs and the like. Just my take, its not a one size fits all and many issues might arise from the core components of devuan and debian like libc and xorg that could break a system using unstable and testing.

jue-gen · 2023-09-14 11:34:24

soren wrote:

I think it all depends on what you want to install and how you want to use testing and or unstable branches. Bleeding edge can be an issue from time to time, especially anything to do with gnome and kde desktop environments. I prefer setting up minimal desktop environments using bleeding edge branches, for example simple window managers like openbox and dwm and add tried and true software to them, learning how the x window system works to make full use of it instead of using 3rd party programs and the like. Just my take, its not a one size fits all and many issues might arise from the core components of devuan and debian like libc and xorg that could break a system using unstable and testing.

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, with Debian Sid for me it was always good to have Openbox or LXDE on the machine at least at the same time as KDE Plasma, to some extent as a fallback solution. apt-listbugs, nala etc. are also good helps with Unstable.
However, among Devuan users I have the feeling that Testing and Unstable are not used as often as with Debian. Maybe someone who works with Testing or Ceres and gets along with it will contact me. I would be interested to know.

Last edited by jue-gen (2023-09-14 11:35:16)

soren · 2023-09-14 11:39:23

I used devuan testing/daedalus from mid last year to when it went stable and had no any issues, if i did they were probably my own fault. I think you will find there are quite a few users who go the testing/unstable route.

jue-gen · 2023-09-14 11:51:11

soren wrote:

I used devuan testing/daedalus from mid last year to when it went stable and had no any issues, if i did they were probably my own fault. I think you will find there are quite a few users who go the testing/unstable route.

Yes, that's about how I did it. I am currently with Daedalus. I use LXQt and KDE Plasma, Plasma because it can use Wayland. Plasma has a few tiny bugs with Wayland though. For example, the control bar disappears during the most important tasks. These are only very small bugs and I think they might be fixed in Testing or Ceres. Yes, but on the other hand I'm dealing with other things ...

boughtonp · 2023-09-14 12:25:52

jue-gen wrote:

Now I am itching to try testing or even Ceres.

What does that even mean? What exactly do you want to try?

Testing and Unstable are developer tools, for those that wish to assist with finding and fixing bugs.

They are explicitly not a released distro and frequently do not get timely security updates.

Do NOT install Testing or Unstable:
1) on any system you cannot afford to have out of action;
AND
2) if you are not willing to diagnose and report issues via the appropriate bug trackers.

If one has an obsession with shiny things and no desire to help develop/test, use a distro like Artix Linux instead, otherwise stick to a supported stable release, and use Backports if one needs specific newer firmware/software for whatever reason.

Last edited by boughtonp (2023-09-14 12:28:42)

jue-gen · 2023-09-14 12:55:12

boughtonp wrote:

jue-gen wrote:
Now I am itching to try testing or even Ceres.
What does that even mean? What exactly do you want to try?
Testing and Unstable are developer tools, for those that wish to assist with finding and fixing bugs.
They are explicitly not a released distro and frequently do not get timely security updates.
Do NOT install Testing or Unstable:
1) on any system you cannot afford to have out of action;
AND
2) if you are not willing to diagnose and report issues via the appropriate bug trackers.
If one has an obsession with shiny things and no desire to help develop/test, use a distro like Artix Linux instead, otherwise stick to a supported stable release, and use Backports if one needs specific newer firmware/software for whatever reason.

With Debian, Testing was completely normal for me and Sid just needs to be handled with vigilant caution for a production system. Do you think Devuan with Testing and Ceres causes more problems than Debian with Testing and Sid? That is my real question.
If I were using Debian, I would upgrade to Sid. But with Devuan, unfortunately, I can't assess that yet. I imagine that deep rebuilding work will have to be done if Debian is to be freed from systemd so that it becomes a devuan. Seen against this background, Devuan is not comparable with Debian 1:1.

Last edited by jue-gen (2023-09-14 13:20:51)

delgado · 2023-09-14 13:19:31

ceres is sid.

jue-gen · 2023-09-14 13:30:43

delgado wrote:

ceres is sid.

Yes, of course, but I think without systemd

nixer · 2023-09-14 13:40:38

However, among Devuan users I have the feeling that Testing and Unstable are not used as often as with Debian. Maybe someone who works with Testing or Ceres and gets along with it will contact me.

I have been using both testing and ceres branches since around ascii. I have installed on my hard drive the oldstable, stable, testing, and unstable versions - currently this is chimaera, daedalus, excalibur, and ceres. As devuan gets upgraded to a new named version, I simply adjust the partitions, and grub. Each is an installed snapshot of the stable - using refracta-tools. I recycle the update/upgrade packages to keep these updated so as not to overuse the download mirrors. Plus, to update each, I do it from within a chroot. This works fine for me and I like it.

In my usage, I always use ceres as my daily driver and on the rare occasion that it does break**, I boot into the testing version and use it. If it breaks, I go to stable. This has worked fine for many years now and I have learned a lot. I only recall one instance for a week or so where both the unstable and testing systems were unusable. Fixing the unstable is usually done by doing nothing and waiting for a package fixed (dependency issue), and sometimes I have to temporarily pin (or mark) a package to a lower level.

In my experience, when using testing/unstable, I always update with "apt upgrade" and not "apt dist-upgrade". This has saved me from breaking my systems about 15 to 20 times over the years. Occasionally, in using testing/unstable, I do have to remove and reinstall a previous package, and I have to use the nvidia driver package to get suspend/hibernate to work as expected. I do have to remember to reinstall all dkms packages when a new kernel is installed as they don't work initially, and have to be re-installed. This has been happening with me for a few years now and I have not found a solution, yet. (I haven't looked hard either, (-; ) Once in a while I will run an "apt dist-upgrade" to remove old and outdated packages, but I pay attention to what it wants to remove. If in doubt, I leave it there and wait a while longer. These are the only current issues I can recall.

**A lot of problems with testing/unstable will sort itself out if you just wait a little while. After all, these are not "stable" and problems are to be expected. Don't use these developer tools if you don't want to learn. It would be frustrating.

boughtonp · 2023-09-14 13:45:44

jue-gen, you quoted my entire post (despite it being the immediately preceding message), but didn't actually respond to any of it...?

You haven't said why you want to do this. ("I did it with Debian" is not a reason.)

Testing and Unstable (whether Sid or Ceres) are not an upgrade, they are development tools for those helping to test potential future versions of packages - i.e. software that has yet to be verified as stable and secure.

If one actually wants to help test, great. Or as a learning tool (as above), fine. Other reasons for running Unstable are probably the result of a misunderstanding and would be better served by running something else, but what else depends on the specific reason(s) for running it.

Anyone with good reason to run Devuan Testing or Devuan Unstable should have an understanding of the mechanism through which Debian becomes Devuan. Anyone who understands that process would also understand the potential additional issues involved, and wouldn't need to ask about differences between Sid and Ceres. (Put another way, to know the differences, learn how Devuan works.)

Last edited by boughtonp (2023-09-14 13:49:13)

jue-gen · 2023-09-14 13:52:28

nixer wrote:

I have been using both testing and ceres branches ...

That was an interesting execution! I am now venturing into Ceres on my second system. Thanks for the tips.

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#1 2023-09-14 10:23:38

[SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#2 2023-09-14 10:48:02

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#3 2023-09-14 11:34:24

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#4 2023-09-14 11:39:23

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#5 2023-09-14 11:51:11

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#6 2023-09-14 12:25:52

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#7 2023-09-14 12:55:12

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#8 2023-09-14 13:19:31

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#9 2023-09-14 13:30:43

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#10 2023-09-14 13:40:38

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#11 2023-09-14 13:45:44

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

#12 2023-09-14 13:52:28

Re: [SOLVED] Testing & Ceres

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