Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

Micronaut · 2020-11-19 00:31:03

All reports are that the performance of the hardware is great. And there are many advantages to finally getting away from the x86 instruction set. But... Apple is just like Microsoft and Google, or maybe worse, in trying to control and watch everything that users of their OS do. So, I'm wondering if this "proprietary" architecture poses some kind of legal or technical obstacles to a Linux distro? Or will someone be compiling Devuan for the M1 architecture soon?

Head_on_a_Stick · 2020-11-20 18:07:34

Devuan already supports the 64-bit ARM architecture (arm64) but the various subsystems on their M1 SoC will need to have drivers added to the kernel, along with drivers for the rest of the attached hardware.

EDIT: and bootloader support as well, which will probably be a challenge because Apple will try to lock it out as much as possible.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2020-11-20 18:09:50)

steve_v · 2020-11-21 07:34:56

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

bootloader support as well, which will probably be a challenge because Apple will try to lock it out as much as possible.

I fully expect Apple to go out of their way to make running anything not endorsed by Apple as close to impossible as they can.

If the current pattern holds, hardware will be undocumented, driver sources unreleased, and boot restricted and encrypted.
Not only will the OS and bootloader have to be signed by Apple, but any applications you want to run will need to be cryptographically verified on every launch as well. Because "security".

If any replacement parts are available, they will be be coded such that third-party repair bricks the device, but that won't be a problem because they'll strong-arm their suppliers into denying anyone else parts to begin with.
Miserable thermal performance, needlessly fragile design, soldered-in SSDs and special screws will of course continue as normal, as will glued-in batteries and planned-obsolescence.

Honestly, given their ~~recent~~ perpetual and pervasive anti-consumer anti-freedom behaviour, I'm rather puzzled why anyone would want to run Devuan on Apple hardware. Why not just buy a better designed machine for a better price and run whatever you want on it without all the hassle?

On the topic of the new "M1" apple-designed SOCs specifically, if the price for HBM is non-upgradeable memory to go with all the other non-repairable non-upgradeable fruitiness, I think I'll pass.

Altoid · 2020-11-21 12:01:27

Hello:

steve_v wrote:

... puzzled why anyone would want to run Devuan on Apple hardware.
... buy a better designed machine for a better price ...

Quite so.
+1
What is it about not being able to do whatever you want to do with your (obviously) overpriced, (usually) irrepairable and (mostly) non-upgradeable hardware?
Why it is alluring to so many people?

I wonder if it would be the same if the Apple logo disappeared from their portable's lid and as a consequence, from 90% of movies that feature a laptop in a scene.

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2020-11-21 12:04:18)

steve_v · 2020-11-21 13:50:42

Altoid wrote:

Why it is alluring to so many people?

TBH I expect they're the same people who care more about what colour their car is or how expensive it looks than they do about reliability or performance.
In the good old days we'd call it "more money than sense" and leave it at that.

What I don't get is why anyone with the motivation and good taste to install a relatively obscure GNU/Linux distro (and one aimed at veteran sysadmins to boot) would want to wear the hair-shirt of running it on the latest shiny-new-shit MacBook, Apple and homebrew hacking of any kind parted ways decades ago and they've been intentionally making life difficult for us for almost as long.

Altoid wrote:

I wonder if it would be the same if the Apple logo disappeared from their portable's lid and as a consequence, from 90% of movies that feature a laptop in a scene.

Anyone with a lick of sense should already know that nothing computer-related in a movie bears the slightest resemblance to reality, so I'm not sure it'd make much difference.

Personally I take some glee in being the only one with a large GNU-head on my laptop lid in a room full of fruit, almost as much as I do at having superior performance and battery life, as well as the dents to prove my machine doesn't disintegrate when breathed on.
Then again I'm kinda nonconformist by nature, so, vOv.

I can understand the appeal of getting away from x86 (TBF I don't mind it at all, I still work with the venerable 8086 regularly), but Apple isn't the only game in town, and more arm-based projects are appearing all the time.
I can't help thinking effort would be better spent supporting (and buying) systems that are designed with GNU/Linux and software-freedom in mind.

Last edited by steve_v (2020-11-21 14:05:06)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2020-11-21 17:44:46

Altoid wrote:

Why it is alluring to so many people?

Well the 5nm process is pretty good, especially considering that Intel are still stuck with their antediluvian 14nm dies, and the reported benchmarks are actually quite impressive. But Ryzen still kills it

Anyway I'm with steve_v — Apple are a bunch of ****s. I threw a massive party when Steve Jobs died.

zapper · 2020-11-22 01:58:40

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Altoid wrote:
Why it is alluring to so many people?
Well the 5nm process is pretty good, especially considering that Intel are still stuck with their antediluvian 14nm dies, and the reported benchmarks are actually quite impressive. But Ryzen still kills it
Anyway I'm with steve_v — Apple are a bunch of ****s. I threw a massive party when Steve Jobs died.

I get that apple is the worst, but why would you throw a party when Steve Jobs died? Usually in corporations like that, a newer, worse person takes over in hostile corporations or corpsoration if you understand my meaning... (Corpse! )

I have heard it said also that Tim Cook made apple even more surveillance friendly, meaning the spying was increased dramatically...

Regardless, I like the idea of using arm in the future...

Also, I say screw you AMD and in the future when I get the MNT Reform, I hope to use Intel less too, aside from gaming...

Although, Intel has less issues then AMD when it comes to bios issues and freedom.

If you tinker with anything post 2012 AMD it shuts off in the bios if I recall correctly, where as intel gen 4 didn't have that issue AFAIK

That being said, ARM + RISC-V are a good way to go... as long as the people making it have some sense.

OpenPower however... Is questionable... unless someone tinkers with power9 to make it way more lightweight. Because someone I recall said that power10's license might have changed... for the worse.

My two cents... though!

PS, I don't use intel anymore without coreboot and intel me disabled, or coreboot and intel me removed/libreboot.

Last edited by zapper (2020-11-22 01:59:57)

dice · 2020-11-22 12:45:25

without apple we wouldnt have the hackintosh !

Steve jobs was a blow hard but i wouldnt be partying cause he died, bad karma dude.

steve_v · 2020-11-22 13:33:18

dice wrote:

without apple we wouldnt have the hackintosh

Once, long ago, apple was a respectable company with some pretty nice hardware and a loyal hacker following.
That all changed with the ipod, when someone realised there was more money to be made selling pretty disposable toys and building vendor lock-in to keep people coming back.

dice · 2020-11-22 13:42:26

steve_v wrote:

dice wrote:
without apple we wouldnt have the hackintosh
Once, long ago, apple was a respectable company with some pretty nice hardware and a loyal hacker following.
That all changed with the ipod, when someone realised there was more money to be made selling pretty disposable toys and building vendor lock-in to keep people coming back.

yeah i know, birth of the smart technology, all the cool hackable tech got rail roaded way back then in favor of the igotsuckedinto apple marketing. I bought an apple ipod 2nd gen when it came out after hearing so much about it mid 2000's, as soon as i realised what a shitfight it was to make the thing work with itunes and such, that was the last apple tech i bought. Its good to see how gnu and linux can hack into macintosh given the right parameters, jobs would be rolling in his grave at that!

Last edited by dice (2020-11-22 13:46:52)

zapper · 2020-11-23 07:09:49

dice wrote:

steve_v wrote:
dice wrote:
without apple we wouldnt have the hackintosh
Once, long ago, apple was a respectable company with some pretty nice hardware and a loyal hacker following.
That all changed with the ipod, when someone realised there was more money to be made selling pretty disposable toys and building vendor lock-in to keep people coming back.
yeah i know, birth of the smart technology, all the cool hackable tech got rail roaded way back then in favor of the igotsuckedinto apple marketing. I bought an apple ipod 2nd gen when it came out after hearing so much about it mid 2000's, as soon as i realised what a shitfight it was to make the thing work with itunes and such, that was the last apple tech i bought. Its good to see how gnu and linux can hack into macintosh given the right parameters, jobs would be rolling in his grave at that!

That is odd, pity apple had to become so tainted...

Sounds like the original intent of walmart only in its case the motto was "made in the usa" but when the founder died, the person who took over and wrecked the store by outsourcing anything they could and made it into a horrible and tainted chain... pity when good ideals are corrupted eh...

dice · 2020-11-23 09:58:14

zapper wrote:

dice wrote:
steve_v wrote:
Once, long ago, apple was a respectable company with some pretty nice hardware and a loyal hacker following.
That all changed with the ipod, when someone realised there was more money to be made selling pretty disposable toys and building vendor lock-in to keep people coming back.
yeah i know, birth of the smart technology, all the cool hackable tech got rail roaded way back then in favor of the igotsuckedinto apple marketing. I bought an apple ipod 2nd gen when it came out after hearing so much about it mid 2000's, as soon as i realised what a shitfight it was to make the thing work with itunes and such, that was the last apple tech i bought. Its good to see how gnu and linux can hack into macintosh given the right parameters, jobs would be rolling in his grave at that!
That is odd, pity apple had to become so tainted...
Sounds like the original intent of walmart only in its case the motto was "made in the usa" but when the founder died, the person who took over and wrecked the store by outsourcing anything they could and made it into a horrible and tainted chain... pity when good ideals are corrupted eh...

Back then the music industry i think got on board with apple to safeguard music royalties in a way by getting people locked into a device where you had to pay for music you may or may not like and even then the way it was loaded onto the device via syncing or what not was and is a shitty way to own a sound file IMO. I dont know the whole story of hand but it all started back around when napster died. Still if you look youtube and youtube-dl, andoid and the like it still didnt stop piracy and never will. Ive still got an old mp3 player from back in 2006 and it works perfectly.

steve_v · 2020-11-23 11:11:25

dice wrote:

Back then the music industry i think got on board with apple to safeguard music royalties in a way by getting people locked into a device where you had to pay for music you may or may not like and even then the way it was loaded onto the device via syncing or what not was and is a shitty way to own a sound file IMO.

The record industry (not to be confused with actual artists) was and still is convinced that consumers should rent access rather than own content.

Apple took things a step further, and sold a device that was essentially useless without subscribing to the content service... A content service where it looks like you've bought something, but actually using it is encumbered with DRM and tied to a subscription tightly controlled by the manufacturer. Then they doubled down and said you're not even supposed to be able to replace the battery.

You don't really own anything on iTunes, and even if you import your own DRM-free audio files it will mangle them to prevent you copying them again.
The open-source community quickly broke these restrictions and allowed us to transfer audio files freely with open-source tools, but the anti-circumvention clauses in the DMCA mean releasing software like GTKpod today would be illegal.

This "you own nothing" attitude is becoming more and more pervasive, throughout multiple industries. Be it streaming services, unrepairable hardware, cars that report to the dealership, or walled-garden app stores, the intent is the same - corporations retaining control over products long after they have left the shelf, and milking customers long after they have left the store.
All under the banner of "Don't think, just buy. Leave everything to us. For just 4.99 (plus recurring payments) you can have all the shiny things you ever wanted... Until we decide to take it away."

Calm, fitter, healthier and more productive
A pig in a cage on antibiotics

The way I see it, we have three options here:

* Keep breaking the DRM and reverse-engineering the hardware, playing cat-and-mouse with manufacturers and risking litigation under the demented monstrosity that is US copyright law.

* Pursue legal means through right-to-repair and such - if the hardware is liberated, liberating (or replacing) the software becomes considerably easier. Freedom to repair also means less waste to landfill, less profit for big corporations and more support for small locally-run businesses. As a bonus, it would also make it easier to hack on your own gear.

*Refuse to buy such products in the first place, and support open initiatives instead. Use jitsi instead of zoom, buy from System76 or Raptor CS instead of Apple. Ditch Spotify and iTunes and get your music from Bandcamp. If some shiny-new-(i)thing doesn't allow you to be in control, don't buy it.

Disclaimer: I am a unashamed software freedom advocate, and an FSF member. I'm not a hippie, and I don't eat my toenails in public... But I sure do like my freedom, and I'll donate to the FSF long before I give a cent to apple or the RIAA.

Back on topic: If you (OP) want to spend your free time circumventing the anti-freedom measures apple has surely put into it's new laptops, nobody here will try to stop you.
Asking others to do so is asking them to spend time and effort indirectly supporting a company that is diametrically opposed to everything free-software stands for, and doing so might even be illegal in some jurisdictions. Personally I feel efforts would be better spent elsewhere.

Last edited by steve_v (2020-11-23 11:24:31)

dice · 2020-11-23 11:24:04

Good post steve_v, you summarized in depth what i was struggling to put into my post.

steve_v · 2020-11-23 11:34:29

dice wrote:

you summarized in depth what i was struggling to put into my post.

Yours was more succinct.

TBH I just felt like a good rant, I'm getting kinda annoyed with all the "apple this, zoom that, steam the other thing" noise in FOSS channels at the moment.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-01-22 06:08:00

New Linux port for the M1:

https://corellium.com/blog/linux-m1

An Ubuntu variant, unfortunately, but it's a start.

zapper · 2021-01-22 06:47:06

dice wrote:

Good post steve_v, you summarized in depth what i was struggling to put into my post.

Yeah, what he said is true. I myself prefer ditching proprietary hardware when possible.

Otherwise it dies fast and it leaks an insane amount of information.

Anything that is proprietary should not have any secrets on it. Meaning stuff your not willing to let out to the world.

Because proprietary is insecure and invasive by default and sometimes even, no matter what...

andyprough · 2021-01-22 14:50:04

steve_v wrote:

I'm not a hippie, and I don't eat my toenails in public...

I only trust code from toenail eating hippies. The toenail eating has to be certified and audited.

zapper · 2021-01-22 18:32:26

andyprough wrote:

steve_v wrote:
I'm not a hippie, and I don't eat my toenails in public...
I only trust code from toenail eating hippies. The toenail eating has to be certified and audited.

Okay, that sounds weird...

I would be suspicious of people who eat their own toenails because you would have to be crazy to do that.

Thus, they might have brain problems... and well ya...

Micronaut · 2021-02-19 18:54:16

Such intense Apple hate... Are they really any worse than Intel? It was sheer accident that IBM created a generic enough machine in their first PC that it could be cloned and actual competition became possible in the computer market. Apple has been much more careful, but still has not been able to totally control their hardware. We've had 'Boot Camp' for the Intel-based MACs since about a year after they appeared. I would hope and expect that something similar will be available for their ARM-based machines soon. It might be Android and Linux rather than Windows, but there will be fully functional OSes for these machines other than Apple's proprietary walled-garden.

andyprough · 2021-02-19 22:22:52

Micronaut wrote:

Such intense Apple hate... Are they really any worse than Intel? It was sheer accident that IBM created a generic enough machine in their first PC that it could be cloned and actual competition became possible in the computer market. Apple has been much more careful, but still has not been able to totally control their hardware. We've had 'Boot Camp' for the Intel-based MACs since about a year after they appeared. I would hope and expect that something similar will be available for their ARM-based machines soon. It might be Android and Linux rather than Windows, but there will be fully functional OSes for these machines other than Apple's proprietary walled-garden.

I don't see Apple hate. I mean, other than HOAS literally dancing on Steve Jobs' grave. I just see a bunch of people noting that the hardware is normally underwhelming and overpriced, and that Apple makes poor software decisions that routinely make their own OS run slower on their own hardware than installing a distro on it. And benchmarks have repeatedly proven that all of this is completely true.

Also I see comments that most Apple users buy their hardware for status rather than any real benefit. Which is also obviously true, although there are probably some exceptions.

Stating the truth is not hate, even if the truth is unfavorable to something for which you are a fan.

Also, your IBM PC "sheer accident" cloning story is untrue. Open architecture and standardized, vendor-tested technology was an intentional part of the original design. https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibit … birth.html

Last edited by andyprough (2021-02-19 22:23:39)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-02-20 09:18:52

Micronaut wrote:

Such intense Apple hate... Are they really any worse than Intel?

Fuck yes. Intel have contributed a huge amount to Linux, Apple are a bunch of twats.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2021-02-20 09:20:18)

andyprough · 2021-02-21 05:11:40

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Micronaut wrote:
Such intense Apple hate... Are they really any worse than Intel?
Fuck yes. Intel have contributed a huge amount to Linux, Apple are a bunch of twats.

Too busy grabbing stuff from the bsd'ers and repaying their kindness by donating literal pennies to their projects. Got to love non-copyleft licenses, trillionaires enriching themselves off the free labor of impoverished volunteers. Apple can't be bothered with copyleft code that would actually require them to share their changes.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-02-21 07:26:46

andyprough wrote:

Too busy grabbing stuff from the bsd'ers

Speaking of which, the OpenBSD devs have managed to get their operating system booting on the M1 in multi-user mode:

https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-arm&m=161386122115249&w=2

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-04-27 15:30:48

Linux will gain some M1 support for v5.13:

https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/ke … 9e9ceffe13

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#1 2020-11-19 00:31:03

Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#2 2020-11-20 18:07:34

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#3 2020-11-21 07:34:56

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#4 2020-11-21 12:01:27

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#5 2020-11-21 13:50:42

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#6 2020-11-21 17:44:46

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#7 2020-11-22 01:58:40

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#8 2020-11-22 12:45:25

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#9 2020-11-22 13:33:18

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#10 2020-11-22 13:42:26

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#11 2020-11-23 07:09:49

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#12 2020-11-23 09:58:14

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#13 2020-11-23 11:11:25

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#14 2020-11-23 11:24:04

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#15 2020-11-23 11:34:29

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#16 2021-01-22 06:08:00

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#17 2021-01-22 06:47:06

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#18 2021-01-22 14:50:04

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#19 2021-01-22 18:32:26

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#20 2021-02-19 18:54:16

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#21 2021-02-19 22:22:52

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#22 2021-02-20 09:18:52

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#23 2021-02-21 05:11:40

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#24 2021-02-21 07:26:46

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

#25 2021-04-27 15:30:48

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

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