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kuleszdl

Member

Registered: 2018-11-03

Posts: 107  

[Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hi,

unlike Debian, Devuan does not provide installer ISOs for architectures other than x86/x86_64. Is this intentional? Being able to install e.g. arm64 from ISO in a VM would be a huge plus for me.

Last edited by kuleszdl (2020-06-21 20:06:09)

Camtaf

Member

Registered: 2019-11-19

Posts: 436  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Not sure many would need or want net install images, but the RPi brigade do want ready to install images...

yeti

Member

From: I'm not here: U R halucinating

Registered: 2017-02-23

Posts: 335  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

(((...))), but the RPi brigade do want ready to install images...

Nope!

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tuxd3v

Member

Registered: 2019-11-14

Posts: 183  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hi,

unlike Debian, Devuan does not provide installer ISOs for architectures other than x86/x86_64. Is this intentional? Being able to install e.g. arm64 from ISO in a VM would be a huge plus for me.

Hi kuleszdl,
Devuan provides netboot install images for several sbc's.

Read the README.txt,
http://arm-files.devuan.org/README.txt

Best Regards,
tux

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Best Regards,
tux

kuleszdl

Member

Registered: 2018-11-03

Posts: 107  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

I know about this installation type, but this is just not the same. With the ISO, I can boot the ARM installer directly in Qemu and install the system comfortably using the installer like I would do for x86.

Altoid

Member

Registered: 2017-05-07

Posts: 1,581  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hello:

... want net install images, but the RPi brigade ...

Brigade?
Not that I know much about this, but from what I have read, a brigade is composed of ~3 batallions and this could be from 2000 to 8000 troops.
From the amount of RPi traffic I've seen there at Dev1G, I doubt we have a squad, ie: 7 to 14 troops.

That said, if not a netinstall, now that it is old-stable, at least the latest ARM Build Devuan ascii 2.1 image would be very nice to have at hand.
The one available for download is over two years old (06-Jun-2018).

A.

Camtaf

Member

Registered: 2019-11-19

Posts: 436  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Brigade?
Not that I know much about this, but from what I have read, a brigade is composed of ~3 batallions and this could be from 2000 to 8000 troops.

There's probably a million or two RPi users out there, but without an image to just dd to an SDHC card, I doubt that you will get much interest from them......

tuxd3v

Member

Registered: 2019-11-14

Posts: 183  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Brigade?
Not that I know much about this, but from what I have read, a brigade is composed of ~3 batallions and this could be from 2000 to 8000 troops.

There's probably a million or two RPi users out there, but without an image to just dd to an SDHC card, I doubt that you will get much interest from them......

there are 1 image for armel beowulf, and several for ascii for rpi's..

Lately there are 3 community images for rpi4, that you can just dd to a sdcard

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Best Regards,
tux

Altoid

Member

Registered: 2017-05-07

Posts: 1,581  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hello:

... probably a million or two RPi users ...

Apparently, there's been more than 30 million RPis sold (of various models) but the Raspberry people do not support anything that's not Raspbian or Ubuntu:

It's not supported on here. The OS on here is Raspbian complete with the full-fat systemd wonderfulness. I'd guess that 99.999% of folks on the forum a) won't know what Devuan is, b) won't know why they'd swap from Raspbian and c) have no problems with systemd (and any quirks it may possess).

... without an image to just dd to an SDHC card, I doubt that you will get much interest from them.

At least for them to try and see what it is about.
Devuan won't get very far RPi wise without at least that.

Like I mentioned earlier, the only available version is ascii from two years ago and Beowulf is still too new and from what I am seeing, not without a few teething issues.

An old-stable Devuan ascii image would be a good thing to have. 

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2020-06-18 22:37:51)

tuxd3v

Member

Registered: 2019-11-14

Posts: 183  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

I know about this installation type, but this is just not the same. With the ISO, I can boot the ARM installer directly in Qemu and install the system comfortably using the installer like I would do for x86.

About QEMU I don't know, but the netboot images you can boot them and install, comfortably using the installer,like in x86..

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Best Regards,
tux

Altoid

Member

Registered: 2017-05-07

Posts: 1,581  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hello:

... and several for ascii for rpi's..

There's only one (have I missed something?) image for RPi3 and it is from 2 years ago.
Would it be the same as an image of the last/latest Devuan ascii 2.1 old-stable?

This is what I have installed on my RPi +B+ now:

pi@rpidevuan:~$ uname -a
Linux rpidevuan 4.16.14-v8+ #1 SMP PREEMPT Tue Jun 5 18:50:10 CEST 2018 aarch64 GNU/Linux
pi@rpidevuan:~$ 

This is what I have on my up-to-date Devuan ascii rig:

groucho@devuan:~$ uname -a
Linux devuan 4.9.0-12-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.210-1+deb9u1 (2020-06-07) x86_64 GNU/Linux
groucho@devuan:~$ 

If I counted (toes/fingers) correctly, it (4.16) is 12 major revisions behind.

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2020-06-18 20:33:59)

yeti

Member

From: I'm not here: U R halucinating

Registered: 2017-02-23

Posts: 335  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

IIRC the old official RPi images never got kernel updates.
Did that change now?

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Altoid

Member

Registered: 2017-05-07

Posts: 1,581  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hello:

... official RPi images never got kernel updates.

No idea ...
Is there/would there be a reason for that?

Did that change now?

As I noted previously, there's only one image for the RPi3 and it is 12 major revisions behind.

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2020-06-18 22:39:08)

yeti

Member

From: I'm not here: U R halucinating

Registered: 2017-02-23

Posts: 335  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

... official RPi images never got kernel updates.

No idea ...
Is there/would there be a reason for that?

Search the kernel image in the list of installed packages.

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Altoid

Member

Registered: 2017-05-07

Posts: 1,581  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hello:

Search the kernel image in the list of installed packages.

While my WS ascii installaton gets me this ...

groucho@devuan:~$ apt list --installed | grep -i linux-image
WARNING: apt does not have a stable CLI interface. Use with caution in scripts.
linux-image-4.9.0-12-amd64/oldstable-security,now 4.9.210-1+deb9u1 amd64 [installed,automatic]
linux-image-amd64/oldstable,now 4.9+80+deb9u10 amd64 [installed]
groucho@devuan:~$ 

... my RPi installation (image) gets me this:

pi@rpidevuan:~$ apt list --installed | grep -i linux-image
WARNING: apt does not have a stable CLI interface. Use with caution in scripts.
pi@rpidevuan:~$ 

Please explain as I'm not getting the point.

Thnaks,

A.

tuxd3v

Member

Registered: 2019-11-14

Posts: 183  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hello:
There's only one (have I missed something?) image for RPi3 and it is from 2 years ago.
Would it be the same as an image of the last/latest Devuan ascii 2.1 old-stable?

Hello Altoid,
yep for rpi 3B+ its the only arm64 image, but you can dist-upgrade it to beowulf..
besides one of the problems of RPi sbc's is that they are not mainlined.. and because of that, they are always behind..

Which means even if you are with the latest version, you are always behind( and still not mainline.. )
For example, kernels >= 5.6 are a nice to have thing( since they have wireguard vpn kernel driver mainlined.. ).

You can't have that on RPi,
because the experimental version for RPi is now kernel 5.4( so you are always behind, weather you want it or not..   ), in contrast with other sbc's were you can have the latest kernels..

An example,
The Lime2 from Olimex which is a 5.7.0 Kernel( wireguard enabled.. ).
We are talking about a dual core Cortex-A7, which can now be seen as a old board, but because it has mainline kernels, you are always updated..

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Best Regards,
tux

Altoid

Member

Registered: 2017-05-07

Posts: 1,581  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hello:

... for rpi 3B+ its the only arm64 image ...

I thought so.

... but you can dist-upgrade it to beowulf.

I tried (just to test it) but it did not do anything because of the system lacking the proper entries in /etc/apt/sources.list.
Maybe when Beowulf reaches old-stable.

... they are not mainlined.
... are always behind.

I understand.
But I don't want the mainline version, just the last stable one.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain this.

Best,

A.

kuleszdl

Member

Registered: 2018-11-03

Posts: 107  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

As suggested here, I tried the "netboot mini iso" from here:

https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dis … t/mini.iso

Interestingly, this worked like a charm - without setting up any netboot server or alike! Now I just wonder what the difference between the netboot and netinst ISO actually is.

Regarding the RPI side-topic: As long as the packaged Devuan kernel is not working for the RPI, I don't see much value in providing such images. This sort of images with a "hardcoded" kernels are definitely not what you want to run on a production system connected to any non-trustworthy network. The result of such images is that some users that are not aware of this issue, develop a false sense about security of such systems and run them in production with no kernel updates forever.

Altoid

Member

Registered: 2017-05-07

Posts: 1,581  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hello:

... as the packaged Devuan kernel is not working for the RPI, I don't see much value ...
... images with a "hardcoded" kernels are definitely not what you want ...
... false sense about security of such systems ...
... with no kernel updates forever.

From where I stand ie: not a coder or developer, just a 65+ advanced (?) user, what you say makes a lot of sense.

But I also believe that it makes sense to take into account that for Devuan, which has a hard time as things stand, things won't get easier if it has no access to or ignores SBC hardware such as RPis of which over 35 million have been sold.

These inexpensive SBP are the entry point to IT for a great many people who maybe cannot afford something else, just want to play and see what it is like or just need an inexpensive solution to a small and simple problem.

And if you leave it all to Raspbian, you will have lost a lot of potential users many of which may eventually become IT staff or pros ie: just the people Devuan needs to survive in the future.

I'm afraid that spawning dozens of derivatives will not be enough.

The Devuan project is not just a distribution, it also represents a core philosophy (Unix) or an ideology if you will.
Exactly the opposite of what mainstream MS software represents today. 

It urgently needs to develop a strategy to occupy the RPi field or get permanently pushed out of it.

Just another point of view and as always, YMMV.

Cheers,

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2020-06-20 14:41:56)

kuleszdl

Member

Registered: 2018-11-03

Posts: 107  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

I see your point. However, please note that Devuan ships with an unmodified Debian kernel. The Debian kernel is a mainline LTS kernel with very few patches and *does not* support any of the RPI boards.

Given this situation, I don't see any sound way for providing any sound RPI support in Devuan. Just two ideas:

(1) Imho, the best approach would be to build some kind of "Respuan" that includes all the RPI-specific stuff but uses Devuan instead of Debian. Not sure if anyone tried this already?
(2) As an alternative, you could package a kernel for the RPI boards and then build installation images which use this kernel. However, keep ind mind that one of the great benefits of Debian's "universal OS" approach is having one generic kernel per architecture that works for all supported devices...

Nevertheless, shipping images with a kernel that is not packaged and receives no security updates whatsoever is probably not the best way to convince people about the benefits of Devuan's core philosophy - at least if you ask me.

yeti

Member

From: I'm not here: U R halucinating

Registered: 2017-02-23

Posts: 335  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

DeBIan has Raspberry kernel updates in their unofficial RPI images. Was kinda suicidal when I looked at it last summer. Kernel updates screwed up the boot config. Should work now.

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Altoid

Member

Registered: 2017-05-07

Posts: 1,581  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

Hello:

... please note that Devuan ships with an unmodified Debian kernel.
... a mainline LTS kernel with very few patches ...
... *does not* support any of the RPI boards.

Ahh ...
Petit dètail.

... don't see any sound way for providing any sound RPI support in Devuan.

I understand.

... build some kind of "Respuan" ...
... all the RPI-specific stuff but uses Devuan ...

I've not seen anything like that.

Where does the Raspbian kernel come from?
How do the Ubuntu people do it?
Surely they are both Debian based.

... package a kernel for the RPI boards and then build installation images ...

Indeed ...
But like you say, no generic kernel.  8^7

... images with a kernel that is not packaged and receives no security updates ...

Of course, I agree 100%, it is a false sense of security.
I was trying to make a point.

Thanks for your input.

A.

kuleszdl

Member

Registered: 2018-11-03

Posts: 107  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

@yeti: Thanks for the hint, I didn't know about these. Do you know from which repository they pull the kernel updates?

If Debian has a repo for that, I am sure Devuan could follow the same approach to build images for the RPI.

yeti

Member

From: I'm not here: U R halucinating

Registered: 2017-02-23

Posts: 335  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

https://salsa.debian.org/raspi-team/ima … r/Makefile

The sed "s/__LINUX_IMAGE__/... lines patch in the kernel deb's name into a copy of the config template and the kernels are in the standard Debian repos for those arches.

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tuxd3v

Member

Registered: 2019-11-14

Posts: 183  

Re: [Solved] Why no netinst ISO for arm?

I fear that we are deviating from the topic subject, which was 'netinst ISO for arm',
They exist, but for a small set( 32 sbc's )..
http://arm-files.devuan.org/README.txt
This kernels are packaged, and we have what Debian has, in this regard..

The subject about RPi4 can be seen here
There are experimental Images available by:
MetaYan
ShorTie
and by C0rnelius

So 3 different images for rpi4

I believe all the 3 images are based in RaspBerry PI foundation kernels, so they are updated( by the RPi standards, because last stable mainline kernel is now 5.7 )..

Go ahead and test them
some would support 4GB Ram, some maybe 8GB Ram( ShorTie,C0rnelius, MetaYan? )

Debian started to do some RPi development, and they have some images( like Yeti stated above ), but none for RPi4, iirc..

Edit: What they start to have is a continuous integration system based in ARM Server class hardware..
https://www.debian.org/News/2020/20200616

Best Regards,
tux

Last edited by tuxd3v (2020-06-20 21:10:02)

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Best Regards,
tux