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#1 2023-08-20 16:23:00

jue-gen
Member
Registered: 2022-07-07
Posts: 109  

A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

For those who understand German, here is an interesting and well done report on systemd, Devuan is also mentioned:
https://linuxnews.de/das-beste-oder-nichts-systemd/

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#2 2023-09-24 17:24:31

yemuyin
Member
Registered: 2023-09-14
Posts: 16  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

"systemd löst Probleme, die wir ohne systemd nicht hätten. " XDXDXDXDXD
Marvelous tongue

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#3 2023-09-24 23:55:00

bai4Iej2need
Member
From: Ortenau
Registered: 2021-04-25
Posts: 98  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

(Ideologisch getriebene Distros wie z.B.Devuan mal außen vor gelassen).
de==> en
(Ideologically driven distros such as Devuan are left out)
If the systemd-sh*t would work flawlessly and transparent, nobody cared.
But it was a substantial and sensible deterioration of flawlessness, maintainability and transparency.
Saving Admin time seems to be ideology today.

Last edited by bai4Iej2need (2023-09-24 23:55:57)


The devil, you know, is better than the angel, you don't know. by a British Citizen, I don't know too good.
One generation abandons the enterprises of another like stranded vessels. By Henry David Thoreau, WALDEN, Economy. Line 236 (Gutenberg text Version)
broken by design :
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … bug=958390

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#4 2023-09-25 09:09:43

Camtaf
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Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 408  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

Yeah, I recon everyone on here has their own opinion of systemd too.... wink

Last edited by Camtaf (2023-09-25 09:10:34)

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#5 2023-09-26 00:06:02

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 849  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

Camtaf wrote:

Yeah, I recon everyone on here has their own opinion of systemd too.... wink

Ain't that the truth...

To be fair, I don't think this just of systemd, but also dbus, pulseaudio, pipewire, networkmanager and avahi as well. As for wayland, I will wait to see how OpenBSD responds to it.

If something is needed as a dependency for something because otherwise it won't work, then it should be a dependency.

If this isn't the case, it should always be optional.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#6 2023-10-16 17:28:30

fest3er
Member
Registered: 2022-07-06
Posts: 8  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

He's dead nuts on. I knew years ago that Poettering was an MS fanboy. "Let's build a huge, undocumented, all-encompassing pile of shit, polish it, market it as the best thing since sliced bread, and slowly take over the Linux world." Wannabe Roman, except he doesn't have the fortitude. The Romans didn't conquer territories; rather, they killed all who opposed them and filled the void.

Before I ever willingly work with systemd, I'll extend sysvinit to do what systemd was supposed to do: provide fast system startup and better daemon monitoring. Systemd is the same as every other project/device/invention where the inventor decided it would become all things to all people, but ends up doing very little mediocrely for most people.

NetworkMangler has its place: non-experts who just want networking to work. I sometimes add 1 or 100 or 1000 primary and secondary IP addresses to an IF for testing. The Mangler says, "Hey! I didn't put these addresses here! Delete! Delete! Delete! Hey! If you want to make a change to networking, *ASK ME*! Don't try to go around me!"

I used to jokingly quip, "How may I hinder you today?" I never realized a few loudmouthed bullies would take it to heart (or whatever they have that passes for one).

MHO.

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#7 2023-10-17 20:52:38

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 849  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

Fest3er, so you are saying they don't have a heart? I think its more likely their heart is no better than an abysmal hole of darkness.

This being said, sysvinit isn't great by itself.

However, openrc, runit, dinit, s6-init, are all way better options than systemd. Hell, even upstart was better than systemd!

What does that say!

tongue


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#8 2023-10-28 18:14:47

nahkhiirmees
Member
Registered: 2022-07-24
Posts: 186  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

fest3er wrote:

NetworkMangler has its place: non-experts who just want networking to work. I sometimes add 1 or 100 or 1000 primary and secondary IP addresses to an IF for testing. The Mangler says, "Hey! I didn't put these addresses here! Delete! Delete! Delete! Hey! If you want to make a change to networking, *ASK ME*! Don't try to go around me!"

That reminds me of avahi. It got in my way when i tried if it is possible to do thing x with dnsmasq. Some webpages have also considered avahi as a security risk.

I guess distros with systemd work in a sense that i can run firefox and vlc and virtualbox and stuff like that.
But i'm not fully convinced it is a way to go. On the other hand i sometimes wonder if all those scripts related to sysvinit are absolutely necessary, could you do things another way instead? Make init or inittab do the jobs of those rc-scripts somehow?

But i'm more familiar with shellscripts and maybe Python and Docker than i'm with C so i guess for now i use sysvinit and that's it.
Familiar in the sense that i can be dangerous with them, i mean smile

Last edited by nahkhiirmees (2023-10-28 18:22:51)

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#9 2023-11-03 23:41:48

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 849  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

Virtualbox requires systemd, if I recall correctly... that I know of...

I would hardly trust virtualbox for this reason alone.

Smh...


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#10 2023-11-04 12:45:25

nixer
Member
From: North Carolina, USA
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 185  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

I have read more than once in several places on the 'net that virtualbox requires systemd.  This is not correct.  This is the output on a ceres install:

root@my-host:/home/me# apt info virtualbox
Package: virtualbox
Version: 7.0.12-dfsg-1
Status: install ok installed
...
Maintainer: Debian Virtualbox Team <team+debian-virtualbox@tracker.debian.org>
Installed-Size: 134 MB
Depends: adduser, iproute2, procps, virtualbox-dkms (>= 7.0.12-dfsg-1) | virtualbox-source (>= 7.0.12-dfsg-1) | virtualbox-modules, python3 (<< 3.12), python3 (>= 3.11~), python3.11, python3:any, libc6 (>= 2.34), libcurl3-gnutls (>= 7.16.2), libdevmapper1.02.1 (>= 2:1.02.97), libgcc-s1 (>= 3.0), libgl1, libgsoap-2.8.124 (>= 2.8.124), liblzf1 (>= 1.5), libpng16-16 (>= 1.6.2), libsdl2-2.0-0 (>= 2.0.12), libssl3 (>= 3.0.0), libstdc++6 (>= 13.1), libtpms0 (>= 0.8.0~dev1), libvncserver1 (>= 0.9.10), libvpx8 (>= 1.12.0), libx11-6, libxml2 (>= 2.7.4), libxt6, zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4)
Recommends: virtualbox-qt (= 7.0.12-dfsg-1), libqt5core5a (>= 5.15.1), libqt5gui5 (>= 5.0.2) | libqt5gui5-gles (>= 5.0.2), libqt5opengl5 (>= 5.0.2), libqt5widgets5 (>= 5.0.2), libxcb1, libxcursor1 (>> 1.1.2), libxext6
Suggests: vde2, virtualbox-guest-additions-iso
...

To get back on topic, well, I don't speak german so I can't comment on the linked article in the original post.

Last edited by nixer (2023-11-04 12:46:56)

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#11 2023-11-04 14:10:38

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,055  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

zapper wrote:

Virtualbox requires systemd, if I recall correctly... that I know of...

That is not correct. I am using VBox now for so many years, I can't really tell how long. And I have always used the package supplied by https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads. On Devuan no issues with systemd all along from ASCII to Excalibur.

Last edited by rolfie (2023-11-04 15:33:33)

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#12 2023-11-04 14:13:44

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,055  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

nahkhiirmees wrote:

I guess distros with systemd work in a sense that i can run firefox and vlc and virtualbox and stuff like that.
But i'm not fully convinced it is a way to go. On the other hand i sometimes wonder if all those scripts related to sysvinit are absolutely necessary, could you do things another way instead? Make init or inittab do the jobs of those rc-scripts somehow?

There is no need for any init script for simple applications like firefox(-esr), libreoffice, vlc, virtualbox ....

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#13 2023-11-04 21:22:40

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher
Member
Registered: 2023-08-24
Posts: 247  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

rolfie wrote:

There is no need for any init script for simple applications like firefox(-esr), libreoffice, vlc, virtualbox ....

I agree. However, I do use the latest .deb file from the official libreoffice site.

It's a pain with all of their constant updates though. tongue

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#14 2023-11-05 04:31:11

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 849  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

rolfie wrote:
zapper wrote:

Virtualbox requires systemd, if I recall correctly... that I know of...

That is not correct. I am using VBox now for so many years, I can't really tell how long. And I have always used the package supplied by https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads. On Devuan no issues with systemd all along from ASCII to Excalibur.

Surprising, I thought there was no systemd-free debian build... weird


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#15 2023-11-06 18:40:27

nahkhiirmees
Member
Registered: 2022-07-24
Posts: 186  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

rolfie wrote:
nahkhiirmees wrote:

I guess distros with systemd work in a sense that i can run firefox and vlc and virtualbox and stuff like that.

There is no need for any init script for simple applications like firefox(-esr), libreoffice, vlc, virtualbox ....

Starting firefox from initscript is not what i meant.
I meant that it is possible to do mundane stuff with systemd-distro as well as with non-systemd-distro.
Couple years ago i changed my main os to Devuan partly because there were other things than systemd in then-current-Debian that i didn't like. The systemd-thing was just icing on the cake.

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#16 2023-11-06 18:51:41

nahkhiirmees
Member
Registered: 2022-07-24
Posts: 186  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

rolfie wrote:

There is no need for any init script for simple applications like firefox(-esr), libreoffice, vlc, virtualbox ....

I'll have to confirm the "virtualbox-situation" but if i remember correctly what i saw in july was some vbox-related scripts under /etc/init.d . I had to link them with "ln -s" in order to make virtualbox work properly. Or maybe i had to run update-initramfs or mkinitramfs to make vbox work. It was a very fuzzy july morning.

Not much difference between being sleep deprived or being drunk.

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#17 2023-11-06 19:12:46

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,055  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

Its enough to install the Virtualbox package. Mostly everything required is installed automagically. Exception: you will need build-essential, dkms and headers to build the VBox modules, and you have to add 3 lines to /etc/modules.

You are right, there are VBox scripts in /etc/init.d. In my long experience I never had to fool with these scripts in any way.

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#18 2023-11-07 11:52:49

nixer
Member
From: North Carolina, USA
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 185  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

Hi rolfie, a quick question please.

Exception: you will need build-essential, dkms and headers to build the VBox modules, and you have to add 3 lines to /etc/modules.

Is this specific to the .deb file downloaded from the virtualbox site?  I use the virtualbox packages from debian - fast track repo for chimaera, daedalus, and excalibur - and the regular repo for ceres.  I do not have "build-essential" package installed, nor do I have any lines in /etc/modules related to virtualbox.  My setup works fine (as far as I know), and I was wondering if I was missing something.

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#19 2023-11-07 14:01:43

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,055  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

Can't tell you how exactly the Debian build works, I'm not using it. In any case under depends there is a reference to virtualbox-dkms or similar, I think this might do the job in the background.

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#20 2023-11-09 20:56:30

nahkhiirmees
Member
Registered: 2022-07-24
Posts: 186  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

nixer wrote:

Hi rolfie, a quick question please.
Is this specific to the .deb file downloaded from the virtualbox site?  I use the virtualbox packages from debian - fast track repo for chimaera, daedalus, and excalibur - and the regular repo for ceres.

It's tricky when you install debian's packages into devuan. Might work, but might not also. Nice to know that in this case, vbox could work.

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#21 2023-11-09 22:06:25

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,055  

Re: A report about systemd on linuxnews.de

nahkhiirmees wrote:

It's tricky when you install debian's packages into devuan. Might work, but might not also.

There is nothing tricky about Debian packages in Devuan. What is offered in /deb.devuan.org/merged coming from Debian works in Devuan.
Devuan is Debian minus systemd, refer to the list of banned packages. The rest is pure Debian! Devuan just makes sure that systemd init is fully replaced by sysvinit and all the others offered, replacing what is required as base for the rest.

Last edited by rolfie (2023-11-09 22:08:07)

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