Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

zapper · 2022-12-29 14:30:58

Still wondering if not using GPL licensing, solves any issues or makes them worse.

That being said, will say this once more,

As an example archlinux has:
Core
Community
Extra
Multilib

The libraries, the programming languages, hell, any core part of the system, should be licensed permissively and be mostly bloat free.
As for the applications, themselves, that is up in the air as far as I am concerned.

I still don't know if getting rod of copyleft licensing would solve anything at this part, given the "corporate syndrome"

Or as I call it, the "redhat syndrome"

Head_on_a_Stick · 2022-12-29 14:49:07

zapper wrote:

As an example archlinux has:
Core
Community
Extra
Multilib

Don't forget the [testing], [community-testing], [multilib-testing], [kde-unstable] & [gnome-unstable] repositories.

zapper wrote:

The libraries, the programming languages, hell, any core part of the system, should be licensed permissively and be mostly bloat free.

Arch doesn't care about licencing. They don't even use SPDX identifiers in the license array. It is a user-centric distribution and so caters to the needs of the user rather than pandering to political principles.

The various repositories in Arch have very specific requirements, none of which are related to the licence: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Official_repositories

EDIT: and Arch tends to be bloated because the packages are usually compiled with most options enabled and they don't use split -dev packages, unlike Debian.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-12-29 14:53:19)

zapper · 2023-01-01 01:31:19

@head_on_a_stick

I am aware of this, OpenBSD does one part, other distros do another.

My point though being, is not that this *already happens* in any distros, it is more that *I used Arch* as an example to illustrate my point:
Meaning I want this to:
*happen!*

Again, Hyperbola is the closest to this ideal, though as an obvious, it will not be a chimaera similar to devuan much longer, even on the smallest level.

Btw, I am aware so many things have changed since then.

Maybe redhat would have not felt like screwing around from the beginning if it had been done this way.

Although, that remains to be a mystery to me.

Btw, which users is arch centric to?

If I had to guess, probably the ones who are highest on the totem pole. This sadly means, the ones who support system death.

https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:philosophy:systemd_denial#points_for_criticism_in_detail

These 3 show a lot of the redhat mentality in clear details:

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/2447
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644

Makes me wonder if the people who accepted these ideals, are heavily drugged and/or completely okay with destroying perfectly good ideas, hardware and the climate itself, just to make quick money.

For example, I would be *MEGA STUNNED* if these issues and others similar, such as web 2.0, web 3.0, etc...

If these unneeded bloatware ideals, didn't cause ten thousand times more damage since web 2.0 came out, let alone web 1.0...

I would be *BEWILDERED*

Anywho, although this went off the rails a bit earlier, I begin to wonder, if the people behind redhat, aren't just after profit, but actually delighting in destruction of the world for pleasure.

I hope that is a fantasy, because that would mean they have no level of darkness they won't go to to get what they want.

andyprough · 2023-01-01 01:57:54

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

rather than pandering to political principles

Arch: Licensing is too political
Also Arch (circa 2012-2013): We're shoving systemd down your throat, and anyone who speaks up about it gets banned

Funny how "pandering to political principles" always applies to what OTHER people are saying and doing.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2023-01-01 12:05:25

zapper wrote:

OpenBSD does one part, other distros do another.

OpenBSD is not a "distro" [sic]. It is an operating system.

zapper wrote:

which users is arch centric to?

Arch Linux Principles wrote:

The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.

And it does this superbly, in my (eight year) experience.

zapper wrote:

Makes me wonder if the people who accepted these ideals, are heavily drugged and/or completely okay with destroying perfectly good ideas, hardware and the climate itself, just to make quick money.

None of the Arch developers make any money out of it.

The reasons for the switch to systemd were given in this excellent forum post by one of the developers:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 0#p1149530

I would strongly encourage you to read that because the reasoning is clear and entirely technical in nature, unlike the deranged, incoherent rantings of tin-foil hat wearers like yourself.

andyprough wrote:

Also Arch (circa 2012-2013): We're shoving systemd down your throat, and anyone who speaks up about it gets banned

I'm curious: how exactly does one get "banned" from Arch Linux? If that were even possible I'm sure the Arch devs would have kicked those Manjaro bastards to the kerb a long time ago, if only to stop them DDoS'ing the AUR.[1]

I presume you are referring to the forums and it is certainly true that pointless rants about the init system are closed down pretty quickly but speaking as an active user on those boards (6,615 posts) I am very glad that is the case. The boards are for troubleshooting and reasonable discussion. Nothing said there will affect Arch development because very few Arch devs ever visit.

And anyway the systemd discussion thread to which I linked above went on for 18 pages and was only closed once the transition was completed. Everybody had their chance to pitch in with their (pointless) opinion.

zapper · 2023-01-13 21:33:04

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

zapper wrote:
OpenBSD does one part, other distros do another.
OpenBSD is not a "distro" [sic]. It is an operating system.
Hmm... I recall writing this, but I thought I edited it out... egg on me...
zapper wrote:
which users is arch centric to?
Arch Linux Principles wrote:
The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.
And it does this superbly, in my (eight year) experience.
zapper wrote:
Makes me wonder if the people who accepted these ideals, are heavily drugged and/or completely okay with destroying perfectly good ideas, hardware and the climate itself, just to make quick money.
None of the Arch developers make any money out of it.
The reasons for the switch to systemd were given in this excellent forum post by one of the developers:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 0#p1149530
I would strongly encourage you to read that because the reasoning is clear and entirely technical in nature, unlike the deranged, incoherent rantings of tin-foil hat wearers like yourself.
Tin foil hat you say...
Says the person who has an entire suit made out of tinfoil and wears a 10 gallon texas version of one, looks in the mirror and pretends they look like they are wearing gold all over their body.
Sure man...
You really believe that was their honest opinion?
Please put down the pipe...
Crack is whack.
andyprough wrote:
Also Arch (circa 2012-2013): We're shoving systemd down your throat, and anyone who speaks up about it gets banned
I'm curious: how exactly does one get "banned" from Arch Linux? If that were even possible I'm sure the Arch devs would have kicked those Manjaro bastards to the kerb a long time ago, if only to stop them DDoS'ing the AUR.[1]
Manjaro users aren't bastards, that would be the development leaders of manjaro thank you very much!
I presume you are referring to the forums and it is certainly true that pointless rants about the init system are closed down pretty quickly but speaking as an active user on those boards (6,615 posts) I am very glad that is the case. The boards are for troubleshooting and reasonable discussion. Nothing said there will affect Arch development because very few Arch devs ever visit.
And anyway the systemd discussion thread to which I linked above went on for 18 pages and was only closed once the transition was completed. Everybody had their chance to pitch in with their (pointless) opinion.

Than just lock it already... if this doesn't please you...

-_-

Last edited by zapper (2023-01-13 21:34:37)

zapper · 2023-01-13 21:35:56

Btw, Archlinux's current principles go against their keep it simple stupid lightweight principles, so none of what you said makes any sense at all.

It is not technical, it is ideology...

so yeah.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2023-01-13 21:40:20

zapper wrote:

Manjaro users aren't bastards

The ones who try to get help on the Arch forums are.

zapper wrote:

Archlinux's current principles go against their keep it simple stupid lightweight principles

Arch is not, and has never been, lightweight. It uses glibc FFS...

zapper · 2023-01-13 21:42:12

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

zapper wrote:
Manjaro users aren't bastards
The ones who try to get help on the Arch forums are.
Really? I didn't think they did that, especially given the elite nature of archlinux...
zapper wrote:
Archlinux's current principles go against their keep it simple stupid lightweight principles
Arch is not, and has never been, lightweight. It uses glibc FFS...

Hmm... then why does it say that on their webpage?

Weird...

EDIT:

"You've reached the website for Arch Linux, a lightweight and flexible Linux® distribution that tries to Keep It Simple."

Very strange...

Last edited by zapper (2023-01-13 21:42:59)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2023-01-13 21:43:56

I did suggest that a bug report was called for in respect of that statement over at the forums. It's nonsense.

EDIT: and yes, Manjaro fuckwits regularly try to get Archers to fix their problems. It's very sad.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2023-01-13 21:44:55)

zapper · 2023-01-13 21:47:52

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

I did suggest that a bug report was called for in respect of that statement over at the forums. It's nonsense.
EDIT: and yes, Manjaro fuckwits regularly try to get Archers to fix their problems. It's very sad.

Sad sounds about right, because they will get harrassed with lots of to put it mildly, mamba venom.

Or to put it in a way some would understand:

They are going to get the "Discord treatment"

When did you suggest a bug report for that?

If I had to guess, it probably got closed as invalid, or won't fix.

Not sure tho... but that is the usual way things go.

Last edited by zapper (2023-01-13 21:48:57)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2023-01-13 21:50:22

zapper wrote:

When did you suggest a bug report for that?

It was in a thread that got binned, I think. Nobody disagreed with me.

EDIT: @admin: time to close this thread?

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2023-01-13 21:51:10)

andyprough · 2023-01-13 22:57:10

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

EDIT: @admin: time to close this thread?

Why? Watching you bang your head endlessly against zapper is quite entertaining. I would think we need at least another 20 pages of this.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2023-01-13 23:08:37

Well I suppose that stuff could be split out. It's off-topic here, to be sure.

zapper · 2023-01-14 02:20:37

andyprough wrote:

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
EDIT: @admin: time to close this thread?
Why? Watching you bang your head endlessly against zapper is quite entertaining. I would think we need at least another 20 pages of this.

Actually, I don't doubt that for you, but for other people on the forum, it might get tiresome...

To be honest, it gets old anyhow... from here on out, maybe I will update this post for new replies...

@MiyoLinux "No hate against Arch, and I haven't tried this experiment since then...but I have no desire to use a system that claims one thing but does another... tongue I guess their KISS philosophy is to keep it simple and install junk that users don't need??? I don't know. big_smile"

That is sad lol and yeah, their youtuber base tries to act high and mighty about their suckless philosophy, while ignoring the big elephants in the room.

There is for example, nothing suckless about, dbus, systemd, avahi, pipewire, pulseaudio, networkmanager, the libraries for these protocols, java is another stupid one, node.js, openssl is another mess, etc... point being, the difference between archlinux and debian is that debian never claims to be lightweight...

But archlinux has, thus they are liars.

Its sometimes hard for me to believe, what Hyperbola has done to debloat the EXPLETIVE out of that hulking mess to make an ultra lightweight distro.

Its like using the OpenPOWER processor arch and making Microwatt or Libre-Soc, only it is probably not nearly as hard to achieve on a time basis.

Not sure on a difficulty basis tho. Besides which, both of those are still, incomplete, last I checked.

Meh... it is what it is.

Last edited by zapper (2023-01-14 14:29:14)

MiyoLinux · 2023-01-14 03:09:23

Oh dear...

This reminds me of something from my past.

Back around 2015 or 2016...when Archyness was really reaching its height in popularity...I had heard that Arch followed the KISS principle and only installed the packages that you needed.

OKAY!

That interested me, because I was used to building my system from a Debian netinstall. I had also built systems from the Ubuntu base (sorry, I don't remember what it was called)...

Anywho...

I had a list of packages that I installed on my Debian/Ubuntu systems for a bare-bones Openbox system.

I decided that since Archifontiferous was so highly lauded, I would try it.

I split my hard drive into 3 partitions, and installed a bare-bones Openbox system onto each partition...one with Debian, one with Ubuntu, and one with Arch.

The results were as follows...

Lowest RAM at startup - Ubuntu (Seriously??? Hahahahaha!)
2nd lowest RAM at startup - Debian
Highest RAM at startup - Arch

Lowest disk space used - Debian
2nd lowest disk space used - Ubuntu
Highest disk space used - Arch

Arch was last in both cases.

No hate against Arch, and I haven't tried this experiment since then...but I have no desire to use a system that claims one thing but does another... I guess their KISS philosophy is to keep it simple and install junk that users don't need??? I don't know.

If I want a rolling release, I'll use unstable on Devuan/Debian.

Sorry Archipontificators...

EDIT: To remove double words. By the way, it's Arch's fault...

Last edited by MiyoLinux (2023-01-14 04:57:47)

andyprough · 2023-01-14 03:36:10

MiyoLinux wrote:

Lowest RAM at startup - Ubuntu (Seriously??? Hahahahaha!)
2nd lowest RAM at startup - Debian
Highest RAM at startup - Arch
Lowest disk space used - Debian
2nd lowest disk space used - Ubuntu
Highest disk space used - Arch
Arch was last in both cases.

Phoronix has benchmarked Arch against Debian a few times over the past 10-12 years. If I recall correctly, Debian has trounced Arch every single time. By default, Arch is a bit of a bloated pig of a mess of a distro. You've got to tweak the heck out of it if you want a top performer. Most of these kids that are raving about their Arch installs on youtube that don't even know how to edit their own config files, they probably don't realize they could have significantly increased performance tomorrow with a default Devuan installation using a default 5.10 kernel instead of their shiny new 6.1 kernels. They love their bleeding edge kernels, their bleeding edge mesa, not realizing that they are probably incurring a significant performance penalty running those new versions, that LTS kernel versions almost always beat the newest versions in benchmarks by significant margins.

MiyoLinux · 2023-01-14 04:52:04

Yeah...such is life.

At least we can gleam some happiness and hold it dear to our hearts from the SupraArchinessexasperators!!!

n'stuff...

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Head_on_a_Stick · 2023-01-14 12:28:53

MiyoLinux wrote:

If I want a rolling release, I'll use unstable on Devuan/Debian.

Neither Debian or Devuan offer a rolling release. Testing/unstable are development branches, which is not the same thing at all. A rolling release distribution should always have all of the packages upgraded in sync and so should always be usable, at least theoretically. De{bi,vu}an's development branches are not expected to be usable at any given time.

Your comparison sounds interesting though so I tried it myself with Arch, Alpine & Devuan chimaera, all with the Xfce desktop:

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=40234#p40234

andyprough wrote:

By default, Arch is a bit of a bloated pig of a mess of a distro. You've got to tweak the heck out of it if you want a top performer.

Yes, I would agree with that analysis.

However I do get significantly higher framerates in CS:GO under Arch compared to Debian bullseye because I have relatively recent graphics hardware (5th generation Ryzen iGPU) and the latest versions of Mesa offer much better performance with that.

I'll probably switch to Debian bookworm soon now the freeze has started and my wireless card is supported by their kernel and I expect performance for that to be much improved on my hardware compared to the previous release.

MiyoLinux · 2023-01-14 16:45:31

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Neither Debian or Devuan offer a rolling release. Testing/unstable are development branches, which is not the same thing at all. A rolling release distribution should always have all of the packages upgraded in sync and so should always be usable, at least theoretically. De{bi,vu}an's development branches are not expected to be usable at any given time.

Hey man...I'm just using language that gets the point across. I didn't know the Language-Police would write me a citation for it...

LOLOLOL!!!

Well...I don't know...I've been using unstable for years. HAHAHAHA!

Yep.

Well...I did say that I did that back around 2015 or 2016.

Over the last couple of years, I've noticed that building a Devuan/Debian system installs a crapton of packages now...even with using --no-install-recommends (thanks to Zapper for my new favorite word! )

EDIT: Removed the extra-hanging-dangling H from the end of the above HAHAHAHA! so that the Language-Police won't write me up again...

Last edited by MiyoLinux (2023-01-14 17:16:01)

andyprough · 2023-01-14 17:53:44

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Neither Debian or Devuan offer a rolling release. Testing/unstable are development branches, which is not the same thing at all. A rolling release distribution should always have all of the packages upgraded in sync and so should always be usable, at least theoretically. De{bi,vu}an's development branches are not expected to be usable at any given time.

By your definition, there are no real rolling releases. All distros hold back thousands of packages if you look at them on repology, and they all hold back core package groups and synchronize their release as a working "chunk" upgrade. The rolling releases we have today should be called "rolling chunky releases" or something like that. Even if they synchronize their core package groups for upgrade once every few days or even once every few hours, they are still going through a mini-fied and compressed version of what the staged release distros do.

I've read that the real rolling release experience would be to switch to Fedora "rawhide" repos, where the packages would just fall on you in completely random order, constantly breaking and causing you to fix everything on the fly. I don't know if rawhide still works that way today. openSUSE "factory" would probably be the same experience. Debian experimental would be similar but I don't think that experimental is a full enough set of packages to make a working distro. Or if you built a Linux from Scratch installation for yourself, and you immediately built every new package as soon as it was released and figured out by yourself how to integrate it into your system - that would probably be the truest rolling release.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2023-01-14 18:15:12

A correction: testing is actually always in sync but just not guaranteed to be in a working state. See also https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi … ml#testing, https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi … tml#s3.1.5, https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi … tml#s3.1.6 & https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi … tml#s3.1.7.

Salient quote from the official Debian FAQ:

When deciding between testing and unstable bear in mind that there might be times when tracking testing would be beneficial as opposed to unstable. One of this document's authors experienced such situation due to the gcc transition from gcc3 to gcc4. He was trying to install the labplot package on a machine tracking unstable and it could not be installed in unstable as some of its dependencies have undergone gcc4 transition and some have not. But the package in testing was installable on a testing machine as the gcc4 transitioned packages had not "trickled down" to testing.

^ This is why Debian has a transition tracker.

Rolling release distrinbtuions such as Arch do not need a transition tracker because transitions are performed en masse.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2023-01-14 18:16:38)

MiyoLinux · 2023-01-14 21:13:06

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

distrinbtuions

This is now my second-favorite new word after crapton!

MiyoLinux · 2023-01-19 19:51:52

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

De{bi,vu}an's development branches are not expected to be usable at any given time.

I've got your not expected to be usable right here...SUCKA!!!

Tee Hee...

zapper · 2023-02-03 22:15:47

MiyoLinux wrote:

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
distrinbtuions
This is now my second-favorite new word after crapton!

Just one thing though...

if its a word at all, its slang...

This reminds me of the time that I saw someone nuke a hurricane and it magically disappeared without causing nuclear fallout.

xD

Oh wait, what was I talking about?

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#51 2022-12-29 14:30:58

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

#52 2022-12-29 14:49:07

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

#53 2023-01-01 01:31:19

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

#54 2023-01-01 01:57:54

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

#55 2023-01-01 12:05:25

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

#56 2023-01-13 21:33:04

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

#57 2023-01-13 21:35:56

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

#58 2023-01-13 21:40:20

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#64 2023-01-13 23:08:37

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#73 2023-01-14 21:13:06

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

#74 2023-01-19 19:51:52

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

#75 2023-02-03 22:15:47

Re: Lennart Poettering (Systemd) Lands at Microsoft After Leaving Red Hat

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