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#2276 Re: Devuan » Why are pulseaudio files present in Devuan? » 2018-12-15 06:52:23
golinux wrote:That is a non-sequitur. I think that something was lost in translation. Alsa is here to stay. apulse just allows apps to use alsa instead of pulseaudio where pulseaudio is a required dependency.
apulse is a tiny workaround, but it won't replace fully pulseaudio.
apulse is not intended to replace alsa. It is intended to allow alsa to be used without having to send it through pulseaudio. For example audio will not work in FF quantum without pulseaudio. But I just uninstalled pulseaudio. installed apulse and sound still works. It fools FF into thinking that pulseaudio is there.
You may try to use a LInux desktop like Gnome, XFCE,... without pulseaudio.
I happily use Xfce without pulseaudio.
#2277 Re: Off-topic » At first I thought it was insane, but then I saw who was behind it. » 2018-12-15 01:18:20
Please try to relax and take it down a notch. There is no need for drama here . . . or for systemd and Poettering bashing. Time to move on.
#2278 Re: Devuan » Why are pulseaudio files present in Devuan? » 2018-12-14 20:03:12
golinux wrote:spartrekus wrote:If pulseaudio has such a not so good reputation, why not to rewrite another one, but better?
Why is an alternative needed at all? What's wrong with alsa? Though I've never tried, I understand that apulse can reinstate alsa functionality in applications that have a dependency on pulseaudio. Will need to figure that out when Quantum is unavoidable. There are notes in this forum and also on DNG.
Alsa is ok. Alsa cannot be avoided for graphical usage and multimedia from Linux kernel. Alsa takes crucial part in the kernel for audio.
That is a non-sequitur. I think that something was lost in translation. Alsa is here to stay. apulse just allows apps to use alsa instead of pulseaudio where pulseaudio is a required dependency.
#2279 Re: Devuan » Migrating from Mint » 2018-12-14 19:10:46
@spartrekus . . . don't fall for the MX Linux systemd-free hype. Explained here:
#2280 Re: Devuan » Why are pulseaudio files present in Devuan? » 2018-12-14 18:55:22
If pulseaudio has such a not so good reputation, why not to rewrite another one, but better?
Why is an alternative needed at all? What's wrong with alsa? Though I've never tried, I understand that apulse can reinstate alsa functionality in applications that have a dependency on pulseaudio. Will need to figure that out when Quantum is unavoidable. There are notes in this forum and also on DNG.
#2281 Re: Devuan » Why are pulseaudio files present in Devuan? » 2018-12-14 16:48:07
It can be harmful and free. A trojan can be made with source code available + with GNU General Public License, Version 3. Then, it will enter the stable release.
Of course. But until you have hard evidence that this is happening please stop spreading FUD.
#2282 Re: Devuan » Why are pulseaudio files present in Devuan? » 2018-12-14 15:37:51
Whether pulseaudio is bad or not, it's a very different situation to systemd. The main difference is that it was written as *nix software rather than "Linux proprietary", like systemd. So it can be installed and run on e.g. the 'BSDs, Illumos, even macOS.
This description is misleading because systemd is not "proprietary" in the sense of black-box blob. It is also free software even though it's purpose is to deny freedom. It's a paradox but one which has allowed it to not be censored by the FSF.
#2283 Re: Off-topic » At first I thought it was insane, but then I saw who was behind it. » 2018-12-14 01:40:58
@siva . . . I got the same result:
The following packages will be REMOVED:
avahi-daemon* libnss-mdns*#2284 Re: Off-topic » At first I thought it was insane, but then I saw who was behind it. » 2018-12-14 00:41:36
@siva . . . You'd think a quick search would be the first thing to do. But is sooo much easier to let someone else do it.
#2285 Re: Off-topic » At first I thought it was insane, but then I saw who was behind it. » 2018-12-14 00:39:41
We all have to start somewhere. But around this crowd if you're going to whine about something it's best to know and understand what you're whining about before making grandiose statements about your preferences.
#2286 Re: Devuan » Why are pulseaudio files present in Devuan? » 2018-12-14 00:35:14
I agree with spartrekus that pulseaudio is crap. I avoid anything made by its author.
The error is that he described pulseaudio as non-free software. No one dislikes pulseaudo more than I. But just as systemd is free software so is pulseaudio according to the license (if not the spirit). All his other complaints are also not true. So it is indeed "bullocks". There is no non-free software in the "main" repository. non-free has to be enabled in order to install proprietary blobs. Under certain circumstances, blobs are available if needed during the OS installation procedure.
#2287 Re: Off-topic » Life after Firefox » 2018-12-13 18:24:54
about firefox, debian builds firefox with alsa by default ...
Yes, but Quantum now requires pulseaudio to use alsa. Supposedly apulse will substitute but I haven't tried it.
#2288 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-13 06:37:40
We live in personal and communal spaces. Imagine someone coming to one of those spaces and immediately wanting to rearrange the furniture. Maybe they think it will improve the feng shui or provide a better view of the lake or . . .
We all have reasons for our actions and most often it is to satisfy our personal preferences. Sometimes it's for what we consider the greater good (which of course could be a completely deluded conclusion). But that is little consolation to those living in that space who might not be so enthused about the disruption. This proves once again that human interactions are flawed and unreliable.
Overlaying emotional perceptions and interpretations and judgments on any "uncomfortable" situation never adds value to the conversation. It is in fact a hindrance to cooperation.
jaromil has said more than once that we welcome anyone to join us at the campfire if they come in peace. Those of us working on Devuan maintain a strong collaborative effort. It is never about any one of us. Even though we may not always agree, we share a commitment to the future Devuan. We are always exploring and learning how to do things better. We just want to move the furniture when we decide it's the right time and for the right reasons.
#2289 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-12 20:21:18
Oh . . . is that all? Looking forward to your patch.
#2290 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-12 16:47:56
The risk of increased installation complexity required to solve ESR's challenge is why I suggest using a webpage as a pre-installation helper to select the correct installer type. It also means we don't further complicate an already complex to build and complex to use set of installation images. A web based tool as I've proposed is easier to develop, and extend, and if we collect installation reports with accurate descriptions, we can even look use them to inform more tailored installation options for specific hardware along with better documentation of quirks.
I actually like the idea of a simple webpage that can help newcomers to choose the right image to use. I think this would be a perfect concrete task to offer to anybody that is willing to help Devuan. I am pretty sure we could find in DNG at least a couple of people interested in leading on that front.
HND
KatolaZ
I like this idea too. But over the years, I have been surprised how many users - even those who should know better - fail to look for READMEs and other documentation when installing. So this info will need to be annoyingly obvious (just short of a blinking marquee). If we could condense the descriptions (we're all pretty good at that) a link-that-can't-be-ignored could go at the top of the getdevuan page for high visibility. There is already an outline to get the ball rolling in this DNG post:
And please find below a more detailed explanation on the motivations
behind each image:- netinst exist because it's the preferred way of installing minimal
systems and servers;- the install DVD ISO exists because there are many users asking for a
single medium that they can download once and install many times
(e.g., due to bandwidth restrictions), and supports more than just
XFCE;- the 3-cdrom set exists because we had many users asking for a
smaller footprint (again, bandwidth is not cheap everywhere) set of
images that they could use to install offline with a minimal XFCE
desktop;- desktop-live exists because many people asked for a live Devuan
version which could be easily tried and installed. This is also the
preferred Devuan flavour used in reviews;- minimal-live was thought as a recovery tool and has a specific focus
on accessibility (especially regarding visually-impaired and blind
users), and provides a full-featured console-based setup;- so many embedded images exist because ARM vendors have not agreed on
a common standard;- qcow, vagrant, and vcox images exist because many Devuan users like
to have ready-to-use images for their VMs;- on top of those, there are also the usual mini.iso and netboot
images, although not advertised on files.devuan.org.
Anybody want to step up to make a draft for that page?
#2291 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-12 00:26:27
There is no reason that Devuan can't or shouldn't have an audience appeal that also caters to the *buntu | Mageia | Mint type of user - ie those that just want something that is simple to install and works well out of the box.
I think that creating something simple that works OOTB should fall to derivatives much as 'buntu and Mint are derived from Debian. In fact, Devuan has considered offering just a base install leaving all the "niceties" - ie desktopy things - to derivatives. Even now, there is a quite a list of derivatives to suit different needs with each having their loyal following. I still think that would be the best way to go. Perhaps some day you could provide a "Centurion" derivative that manifests your vision!!
If this forum and our ML were overrun with 'buntu refugees, I think we would lose much of our core base that has made Devuan so unique. That's exactly what happened in 2013 on the Debian forums when they started catering to n00bies. There was a HUGE exodus when many (if not most) of the knowledgeable users left the sinking ship. It's been all downhill from there.
Devuan is in many ways, the ark that is preserving the knowledge of what Debian was and could have been. Please let's not turn it into another 'buntu for the masses.
#2292 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-08 23:32:59
I tried a Devuan install from scratch on the NUC, failed due to the NIC problem, then did a Mint install from scratch.
Indeed you did and I found it:
The problem turned out to be that the Devuan ASCII kernel is too old. The list of vendor-ID/subtype pairs for the e1000 didn't include the subtype the NIC on the NUC has.
Apologies for not remembering to connect those two pieces that were so many paras apart. I'll try to do better next time. 
#2293 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-08 19:37:43
I took what he wrote to mean that he tried to install Devuan over top of Mint. Any other way wouldn't be possible, right? It seems he is knowledgeable enough to know that.
He said, "The first, my wife's home-office machine, is "minx", an Intel NUC running Mint 19 - I've tried to Devuanize that and failed." I have no idea what that means because it contains zero detail about what he tried.
Even Debian advises not to use Mint/Ubuntu Packages. This from the Debian Wiki
Don't make a FrankenDebian
Repositories that can create a FrankenDebian if used with Debian Stable:
- Debian testing release (currently buster)
- Debian unstable release (also known as sid)
- Ubuntu, Mint or other derivative repositories are not compatible with Debian!
- Ubuntu PPAs
So how is the failure Devuan's fault?
Then came the rant about how confusing Devuan installers are. Well, how are Devuan isos so different from the selection that Debian offers except that the RPi stuff is at a different location? That indicates a (rather shocking) lack of familiarity with Debian.
You might remember these two threads (in which you participated) on this very forum relating to Mint (there may be more):
Migrating from Mint (includes some discussion of (or whining about) "user friendliness")
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2522
Linux Mint Devuan Edition?
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2317
#2294 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-08 17:37:58
Panopticon wrote:So if you have never done a Debian install, your frustration it seems is not really based on any facts is it, or am i missing something here?
He has tried a Devuan install:
Not with the Debian installer, it seems.
The first, my wife's home-office machine, is "minx", an Intel NUC running Mint 19 - I've tried to Devuanize that and failed.
Mint is NOT Debian/Devuan. Not at all surprising that trying to Devuanize Mint failed.
#2295 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 22:25:25
I do think Devuan has the potential to catapult past the systemd distros, but is this what the dev's want? If not, should they want this? Was this ever considered? How big of a project is Devuan prepared to become, etc...?
Thinking of the future is a waste of time and energy. Wanting also. We are quite practical and do what needs to be done NOW. The future will manifest as it will depending on where contributors take it. If someone wants to write an installer as esr describes, they are welcome to do so. We at Devuan are collaborators and will work with anyone who cares to provide additional functionality/features.
Has ESR reached out to Devuan via IRC or other methods?
Yes.
#2296 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 21:22:35
He could have been a bit more tactful but that's no reason to reject everything he said.
I don't think we rejected everything he said. I think we invited him (or someone with the itch to so) to provide the functionality that he envisions.
#2297 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 20:37:08
The subtitle of this thread - "How to avoid having users - and how not to" - begs the question - "what users?". IOW . . . users have different preferences and needs. It's unlikely that one size will fit all. Choice and diversity in the Linux eco-system is a good thing and Devuan offers a choice. There are users who will like and support what we are doing and others who won't. We are here for those who resonate with what we offer and invite them to add their talents to improve what we are doing either directly or by creating a unique derivative.
Devuan is not just about avoiding systemd but also about providing a variety of init options. In fact, Devuan and Debian devs are now working together to keep init diversity alive in Debian. Collaboration like that is a good thing.
Devuan never has been (and is unlikely to ever be) about self-promotion or marketing or out-competing other distributions. We do what we do and offer it as a choice to the Linux community. It will not be everyone's choice. But it will become what its users contribute to its improvement and growth. Cliche alert . . . actions speak louder than words.
#2298 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 09:22:34
We are doing our thing and quite happy doing it.
I can't remember anyone ever whining about lack of "user friendliness" or expressing a desire to vanquish the dominance of Ubuntu/Mint. In fact, if the VUAs had decided to fork Mint, I would not have spent the last four years committed to Devuan.
Different strokes. Devuan may not be to your liking. If you feel changes to Devuan are needed, offer them for consideration. Not just talk but tangible alternatives. Whether you stick around or not is a decision you will have to make for yourself.
#2299 Re: Devuan » Migrating from Mint » 2018-12-06 21:03:21
Please read this page:
https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list
You'll need to enable the correct repositories and comment the CDROM line.
and the Release Notes:
https://files.devuan.org/README.txt
And don't forget:
apt-get upgradeafter the update.
#2300 Re: Devuan » Migrating from Mint » 2018-12-06 18:51:55
Please post your sources.list
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