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#26 2019-11-17 14:27:08

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

HevyDevy wrote:

There should be a 4th option.

4) drop systemd as init and revert back to SysVinit.

Wouldn't that throw a spanner in the works! wink

no, because so far this seems indistinguishable from the 2014 gr that got us into this mess.

every few years i suppose, theyre going to ask people to vote on whether to formally kick out every effort to make the systemd monopoly optional. imo whats necessary to stop this is greater advocacy against systemd-- which has actually been discouraged in favour of "lets just all work around it and hope for the best."

i love technical solutions, but here you have a yet another political effort to kick technical solutions out. we should have kept advocating against systemd, even as technical solutions were increasingly relied on. now people know (or at least, soon they will know) the cost of choosing one or the other, when the only real solution is "both."


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#27 2019-11-17 18:47:56

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,771  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Ian jackson has posted a response:

https://lwn.net/ml/debian-vote/24014.36 … nd.org.uk/

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#28 2019-11-25 11:40:46

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 192  
Website

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

i created an article about the situation for making sense around... https://qgqlochekone.blogspot.com/2019/ … -from.html taking in consideeration the mail about "devuan cannot exist without help of debian" of those days.. at  https://www.mail-archive.com/dng@lists. … 26212.html

... i remenber when here in most ancient msg "we are enought".. we are not an island! always will need help from the others distributions and specially from Debian unlesss make ther own packages and not cached the ones..

Good job but some things must be changed.. respect collaborations...

Last edited by mckaygerhard (2019-11-25 11:51:31)

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#29 2019-11-26 14:44:14

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 192  
Website

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

HevyDevy wrote:
mckaygerhard wrote:

without offending you that it's bit stupid.. maybe you can build your package locally just at final stage.. and some other must use OBS to don't waste own resources. compiling FF or chromium browsers need huge amount of resources.. that OBS provides easyle and agnostic environment for right dependences (where you can see if all are meet or fails for some one)

You dont get it, im not going to build Firefox or Palemoon from source, i was just asking questions.


ah ok.. in any case! this topic are not for that! my post contribution was about the https://www.mail-archive.com/dng@lists. … 26212.html mail.. with an article.. at https://qgqlochekone.blogspot.com/2019/ … -from.html

buit noted now with another face! if those desition will happened! could be a new exodus.. and Devuan will get new developers and manpowers! i hope then that will happened! cool

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#30 2019-11-27 06:54:34

xunilog
Member
Registered: 2016-12-05
Posts: 26  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

i bookmarked this announcement from a week or so ago

sysv_init_project_now_includes_a_script_to_convert_systemd_units_into_shell_scripts_with_LSB_headers

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments … script_to/

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#31 2019-11-27 08:04:54

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,771  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Good find!

I found this link more informative than reddit:
https://www.patreon.com/posts/31633933

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#32 2019-12-07 18:47:40

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 156  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00002.html

Options for voting are very interesting: according to description every option (except further discussion) is for SystemD. There is also sjw-related stuff in description for some of options.

Another interesting fact: systemd-homed will be merged with SystemD code very soon. It looks like someone want to turn Debian into SystemD-exclusive for systemd-homed promotion.

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#33 2019-12-07 19:12:34

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,771  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

We always knew it wanted to be the systemd OS.

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#34 2019-12-07 19:21:36

yeti
Member
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 157  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

My last frequently used Debian will be at least frozen when systemd-home wants to touch my disks and then it shall be migrated without hurry. I wanted to do this already for a longer time but laziness is soooo energy efficient... *sigh*

Systemd-home will be the last drop needed to get in motion with this one.
Systemd-home as motivation booster?  \o/
Who would have thought of that?  o:-Þ


"I toggle, therefor I am." — Clock Bit.
"There is no PLANET-B!" — ???
"Vrijdag voor VT100!" — Yeti.
"Stop slavery! Free all mitochondria!" — Yeti.

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#35 2019-12-07 20:13:03

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 191  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

ToxicExMachina wrote:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00002.html

Options for voting are very interesting: according to description every option (except further discussion) is for SystemD. There is also sjw-related stuff in description for some of options.

Another interesting fact: systemd-homed will be merged with SystemD code very soon. It looks like someone want to turn Debian into SystemD-exclusive for systemd-homed promotion.

This is getting to be very depressing. What is wrong with LP? Does he really have Linus-envy, and want to have his own Lennax? Why can't he just stop? I have a bad feeling about this...

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#36 2019-12-07 21:22:26

little
Member
Registered: 2017-06-08
Posts: 7  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

ToxicExMachina wrote:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00002.html
Options for voting are very interesting: according to description every option (except further discussion) is for SystemD.

From mailing listt:

[   ] Choice 1: F: Focus on systemd
[   ] Choice 2: B: Systemd but we support exploring alternatives
[   ] Choice 3: A: Support for multiple init systems is Important
[   ] Choice 4: D: Support non-systemd systems, without blocking progress
[   ] Choice 5: H: Support portability, without blocking progress
[   ] Choice 6: E: Support for multiple init systems is Required
[   ] Choice 7: G: Support portability and multiple implementations
[   ] Choice 8: Further Discussion

Doublespeak at work. Here's what the options really are:

[   ] Choice 1: F: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 2: B: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 3: A: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 4: D: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 5: H: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 6: E: Multiple Init Systems
[   ] Choice 7: G: Something unrelated to dilute votes for 6
[   ] Choice 8: Do nothing

There are essentially two options here: Make systemd default, or support multiple init systems. Anything else is bullshit. How they managed to come up with 7 choices out of 2 is amusing.


talk is cheap

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#37 2019-12-07 21:38:35

fanderal
Member
Registered: 2017-01-14
Posts: 18  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

ToxicExMachina wrote:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00002.html

Options for voting are very interesting: according to description every option (except further discussion) is for SystemD.

Thanks for the link. I agree. Seems every choice allows non-systemd efforts and/or objections to be overruled, nullified or ignored.

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#38 2019-12-07 22:00:55

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 191  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

little wrote:
ToxicExMachina wrote:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00002.html
Options for voting are very interesting: according to description every option (except further discussion) is for SystemD.

From mailing listt:

[   ] Choice 1: F: Focus on systemd
[   ] Choice 2: B: Systemd but we support exploring alternatives
[   ] Choice 3: A: Support for multiple init systems is Important
[   ] Choice 4: D: Support non-systemd systems, without blocking progress
[   ] Choice 5: H: Support portability, without blocking progress
[   ] Choice 6: E: Support for multiple init systems is Required
[   ] Choice 7: G: Support portability and multiple implementations
[   ] Choice 8: Further Discussion

Doublespeak at work. Here's what the options really are:

[   ] Choice 1: F: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 2: B: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 3: A: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 4: D: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 5: H: Systemd only
[   ] Choice 6: E: Multiple Init Systems
[   ] Choice 7: G: Something unrelated to dilute votes for 6
[   ] Choice 8: Do nothing

There are essentially two options here: Make systemd default, or support multiple init systems. Anything else is bullshit. How they managed to come up with 7 choices out of 2 is amusing.

It basically seems like what they did for the original systemd vote back in jessie, only 3 times worse. I.e., bullshit. Or if you want to be polite, 'disingenuous'.

Last edited by sgage (2019-12-07 22:02:53)

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#39 2019-12-07 23:44:43

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

sgage wrote:

It basically seems like what they did for the original systemd vote back in jessie, only 3 times worse. I.e., bullshit. Or if you want to be polite, 'disingenuous'.

exactly. this process is a complete sham, and since late 2014 debian has used their incredible bureaucracy not to protect debians development, but to undermine it and hand it over to bad actors.

"assume good faith" if youre ridiculous; it was a coup. this is only happening as people have worked too hard for whats right, and they need to hand more of debians priorities over to red hat. they should tell them to get out, and take gnome with them. honestly, it would be less work to fork gtk than to work around all this constant sabotage.

Last edited by freemedia2018 (2019-12-07 23:51:05)


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#40 2019-12-08 09:10:37

Nili
Member
From: $HOME/♫♪
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 82  
Website

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

I do not care anymore. IMO, It's not too late to think of any other non-Linux system. I'm already practicing my hands with BSD. I'm looking at Haiku aswell. Instead of learning another Linux OS I find it more reasonable to use a non Linux OS.

Curiously, I installed Debian 10 a couple of days ago and didn't hold it for more than a few hours. Still no to"C:\SystemD" for me.


OS: FreeBSD // CWM & Devuan // Fluxbox (lean & mean).
I only play 96kHz Hi-Res audio WAV or FLAC via DAC player.
Chuck Norris doesn't approve systemd.

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#41 2019-12-08 10:10:31

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 9  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Can Devuan still get the disaffected Debian maintainers to come aboard(?).

If they would leave Debian & join with Devuan, it would increase its validity to more sysadmins, I think, & guarantee a systemd distro for others to base their distros off.

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#42 2019-12-08 10:38:49

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 383  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

hmm; don't you think the silent "non-" could be confusing for a casual visitor ?

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#43 2019-12-08 20:50:56

ChuangTzu
Member
Registered: 2018-06-13
Posts: 138  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Nili wrote:

I do not care anymore. IMO, It's not too late to think of any other non-Linux system. I'm already practicing my hands with BSD. I'm looking at Haiku aswell. Instead of learning another Linux OS I find it more reasonable to use a non Linux OS.

Curiously, I installed Debian 10 a couple of days ago and didn't hold it for more than a few hours. Still no to"C:\SystemD" for me.

Well, before completely jumping the Linux ship....there is Slackware (or SalixOS)which has remained true to *nix standards while everyone else forked off.

Last edited by ChuangTzu (2019-12-08 20:59:57)

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#44 2019-12-09 00:25:06

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

sgage wrote:

What is wrong with LP?

i could answer that directly, and tell you exactly what is wrong with him personally, which certainly is a factor in this.

so its not in his defense when i say that i think a more complete answer to your question goes up a level to his superiors. this is true even if he never worked for red hat or ibm directly. the sort of anti-culture that he serves, that suits his personality is the broader problem here.

monopoly, control, exploitation, outright theft. whats theirs is theirs, and whats ours is also theirs. if there were no lp then they would find another person like him. that doesnt get him off the hook, though i think the broader problem is closer to the cause of all this.

also, i dont think he could (or does) do all this alone. there are so many green lights needed to get this far-- hes mostly got the support of the tech press, he does have support from larger companies who love to gain more control of our ecosystem (i think thats the primary cause here) and hes got lots of people supporting him who have the same "problem" that he has.

and beyond that, the people whose job it is to stand up to this, arent. im talking about the "fsf", which i have spent more than a year lobbying and looking for allies with. and i think i found them, though you have seen what happened to that organisation and its leader. what jaromil and dyne.org said about it was the best example of what ought to be said.

5 years ago, we had a lot of theories about systemd, and ive looked for evidence that those theories are ridiculous and also evidence that they arent.

i think if you average them all together so the details are less focused and a general theme is found, those theories are pretty incredibly accurate. the more ive found, the worse it is. of course some of the specific details are probably wrong, but they cant all be right.

but whether you look at microsoft, ibm or a few universities, we speculated about certain people and certain institutions years ago-- since that time, there are more possible (and more interesting) connections with them, not fewer. certainly we can blame lp and his over-the-top arrogance. he didnt win that pwnie for nothing, he earned that thing.

but theres something a lot bigger than lp here. hes sort of a useful idiot-- very useful (to them) and very idiotic, experience and wisdom dont make you as cheerfully condescending and controlling as that guy. he just screams dunning-kruger and the dunning-kruger world cheers it on. but hes not leading the attacks on the ecosystem. hes helped develop a software weapon, and cheered it on like any clueless, billion-dollar corporate-backed developer would do in his situation.

i dont think hes the mastermind, i honestly dont think hes got half a clue what the real implications of his own software are. that doesnt mean he isnt arrogant, malicious or at fault here. he plays a significant role. but in a clueless way.

think of george w. bush during the 2003 invasion. might as well have lennart stand on top of a giant server farm with a banner that says "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED." bush definitely did not mastermind any of whats happened in the middle east, but we sure had to hear to a lot of his cheerful, ignorant crap about what a great job was being done, and what a problem critics can be.

dont let the sabs at debian off the hook either. without them, this would affect us a lot less.

ive been watching trump since 2016, and people blame everything in the world on him, like these problems are new. im not saying trump is blameless either, but the problems already existed and ive spent the past few years looking at him as a really obvious symptom as much as a cause.

you can look at lp as a symptom too. hes a festering eurotrash boil of a developer, i only wish he were the disease itself. that would be so much easier to fix, if we could attribute everything that has gone wrong to a single person. we could just impeach-- it may help, though the broader problem is the one i think we really need to fix.

heres something to take away from this-- the best developers in the world care more about what theyre trying to do, and implementation follows from there.

when systemd fans beat their chests over how superior their talent and knowledge of their domain is, they are obsessed with their implementation. thats not a sign of a software designer, its the sign of a very virulent, zombie killer codemonkey. these guys arent masterminds at all. people keep saying they cant design software, and its absolutely true. but if they cant design software, what does that tell you?

if systemd were designed well, it wouldnt need the entire ecosystem to conform to it. that would be considered insanely inefficient, which for the people sponsoring systemd is a feature-- the burgeoning design cost is something only a large corporation can maintain. ibm is a machine-- it pays coders to do stupid things, and when it no longer suits them they ax the project.

but systemd gives them control, and all they have to do is keep paying people to do dumb things and force everybody else to work around it-- to work for ibm for free.

if systemd had a design at all, there would be sane limits on what it accomplishes. there are none. if it were designed, people would say "ok it needs to interface with this, it needs to stop here, it needs to kowtow to this signal or process or design here." it does none of that. it simply marches on, and everybody bows to it. runaway processes ought to be killed, but this one is whitelisted.

everybody who whitelists this runaway process is doing an absolutely terrible job. it brings down everything else, and ibm is just fine with that.

Last edited by freemedia2018 (2019-12-09 00:54:28)


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#45 2019-12-09 01:12:21

yeti
Member
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 157  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

If Debian as base of Devuan falls off...

Let's hope Devuan has/finds a way but having some [plan b]s helps to stay calm in the rough sea.

I prefer an OS, I can use on the majority of my systems, so standard PCs and lots of ARM board flavours need to be supported. I can avoid to buy too exotic ARMish ones in the future, but Pi1..3 and some Allwinner based boards are here now and I definitely want the same flavour of OS on them (and in the future on RiscV) as on the PCs.

The release strategy...

For playing around, an additional De??an cut would be nice and I'd use it on the just for fun systems, but with stable+security(+backports), I just add what I additionally need to "/opt" and am happy. This mostly is stuff directly from the Git repos of some projects, so packaging it every few days would be plainly silly.

I just don't want an only rolling release based system. For some long running projects daily changing tools and libs are catastrophic but if security dictates, some updates must be tolerated. Fore me De??ian just fits this stable+security(+backports) scheme.

ChuangTzu wrote:

Well, before completely jumping the Linux ship....there is Slackware (or SalixOS)which has remained true to *nix standards while everyone else forked off.

Good old Slackware. I haven't looked at it for years... maybe even dramatic more than a dozen... I should play a bit with it again in VMs.

Voidlinux looks nice. Unluckily only a rolling release. If enough migrants from De??an gather around it, making a spinoff in a stable+security flavor could be a plan-b too.

But still my plan-a is using Devuan! Let the other ideas be emergency exits for a case we hope never to occur.


"I toggle, therefor I am." — Clock Bit.
"There is no PLANET-B!" — ???
"Vrijdag voor VT100!" — Yeti.
"Stop slavery! Free all mitochondria!" — Yeti.

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#46 2019-12-09 01:14:15

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 191  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

You make a lot of good points. Is there any way for anything good not to get co-opted by the corporate borg? That's what i find myself wondering. ..

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#47 2019-12-09 01:41:02

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

yeti wrote:

Voidlinux looks nice. Unluckily only a rolling release. If enough migrants from De??an gather around it, making a spinoff in a stable+security flavor could be a plan-b too.

hi! ive got a void linux derivative (mine) running for over a year now, as in uptime. but to be honest ill never bother with that distro again, as soon as ive worked out an alternative.

my thing is remixing distros automatically-- converting one bootable iso to another with a script. i started with puppy and refracta, ive also done debian live 9.5 (removed systemd as init) and ive done trisquel 8 (removed systemd for upstart.) these are NOT options for devuan bases i would recommend. theyre options id recommend avoiding. having tried them id rather avoid them. this is just one vote, of course, but its against. with void, its too tedious and unfriendly and unreliable. it will cost developer time, as debian has. the result wouldnt be as useful as devuan or refracta. as a "bonus", void is hosted on github: http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/De … F.29_Linux

sgage wrote:

Is there any way for anything good not to get co-opted by the corporate borg? That's what i find myself wondering. ..

i believe so. but i think that has to be more of a priority, i think maybe we need to ditch the advice and priorities of a few more organisations that ask us to cede to corporations-- whatever that means. when i speak broadly, its often when being specific would be limiting. for example, i encourage people to boycott microsoft. though sometimes im not that specific, because sometimes there are categories of things that are worth boycotting, of which microsofts offering is only one example.

Last edited by freemedia2018 (2019-12-09 01:41:49)


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#48 2019-12-09 04:36:54

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 156  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

fanderal wrote:
ToxicExMachina wrote:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00002.html

Options for voting are very interesting: according to description every option (except further discussion) is for SystemD.

Thanks for the link. I agree. Seems every choice allows non-systemd efforts and/or objections to be overruled, nullified or ignored.

It doesn't mean every non-SystemD effort will be ruined. It's just a step forward to Debian collapse. After the collapse most of parasites will flee away and community will be able to rebuild this great distro with new experience. However, I hope there will be another solution without total collapse. This is not the end.

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#49 2019-12-09 04:49:22

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 156  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

golinux wrote:

We always knew it wanted to be the systemd OS.

An idea on statistics:

1. Make independent vote with both Debian mailing list options and correctly written options as two separated votes.
2. Invite only Debian developers and maintainers (including the ones who were banned without proper reason). Explain that an independent voting place is important because of censorship in Debian communication services.
3. See how much developers want to develop Debian as SJW/GNOME instead of keeping it as GNU/Linux.

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#50 2019-12-09 04:53:29

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 156  

Re: Debian considering going systemd init only

Nili wrote:

I do not care anymore. IMO, It's not too late to think of any other non-Linux system. I'm already practicing my hands with BSD. I'm looking at Haiku aswell. Instead of learning another Linux OS I find it more reasonable to use a non Linux OS.

Curiously, I installed Debian 10 a couple of days ago and didn't hold it for more than a few hours. Still no to"C:\SystemD" for me.

It's not a good time for switching to non-linux OS. The greatest libre software environment need concentrated support of every user - not escape to weak freedom. It's better to prepare to fork Linux. I sure a lot of significant developers will support the fork.

Last edited by ToxicExMachina (2019-12-09 04:54:44)

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