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#26 2017-11-09 14:57:52

fungus
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From: Any witch way
Registered: 2017-07-12
Posts: 364
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Re: lol!

cynwulf wrote:

But over thousands of years capitalism has followed similar patterns:

Capitalism, by very wide agreement, begins with mass production with mechanical means.  The place is Netherlands and England in the early stages and in textiles.  This is why cotton production in the colonies became of prime importance.  The only way to capitalize is to massively buy and resell labor.  Nobody debates on that one.  Previously wealth was created only by raiding neighboring communities by armies (feudalism).
And so has the development of the modern state and its domination over specific borders taking place around the same time.  A couple centuries later this development leads to a 'class revolution" in the US and later in France against the nobles, so the capitalists can be free and can rule without taxation.  The non-effectively revolting states quickly reform to prevent such revolution and resemble those capitalist states.  So a century later there is not much difference between France, UK, or US.  In the UK and colonies a pact is made by the capitalist class and the nobles to keep the later around as ornaments.
Nowhere in political theory does anyone claim that capitalism existed anywhere else or at any time before.  Trading is not capitalism.  Trading alone was never too benefitial under the rule of nobles and their armies.

3) There cannot, by design, be prosperity for all, or even the majority.

What design, whose design, what prosperity?  In Chiapas whaever prosperity they enjoy is in very equal terms within the organized communities.  The rest live out of drug-running, prostitution, or as slaves to landowners.  In the zapatista communities you can say there is equality by design, that is what the decided to do and that is how they live.  Capitalism never had a design or a theory, till neoliberalism was formulated, but exists due to massive societies being socially unorganized.  This is why communities declined and later family structures.  Unorganized individuals are helpless and dependent on economic blackmail.

My point is that it can never evolve into a fairer, juster society, free of poverty and corruption - only the reverse until it's final implosion.

There are 2 scenarios, at its extreme evolution, the final stage of neoliberalism, as it will be unable to return to state controlled national capitalism, this globalized hydra will be overthrown in a sequence of uprisings, but capitalism seems to be able to adopt quickly to prevent total loss.  The other scenario is that its accelerating destruction of the environment that seems now unstoppable will create a living crisis for all species on earth.  There may be so few left living that it would be impossible to recreate capitalism.  Most predictions are that when the decline in living things reaches a certain point there is no return.  Surely with 90% of the human population sick and starving nothing good can come out then, except for canibalism.    Mining, single-crop agriculture, and energy transformation has already reached a point of no return.  It may very well be already too late to save life for the next century.  Even we, older people, we should expect epidemic crises of new forms to erupt at even the most affluent corners of the planet within our life time.   The kids being born today are doomed to live through this hell.

You can only destroy the monster, you can never reform it.  Every head you chop more come out.

Other systems were tried and failed, ....

I hope you don't mean state capitalism as "other systems", but I only know of that one.  Economic systems by definition are "systems" designed and run from top down.  Those have all failed humanity miserably.  They are all variations of the same industrial model.  Social organization systems that spring from the bottom seem to be doing very well, socially, politically, and economically.  It would be illogical to blame yourself for shortcomings resulting from decisions  you made (nu active participation).  So that creates an endless political stability.  It turns out that in such communities true environmental protection is of primary importance as it this environment that ensures food for tomorrow and nobody else.  Humans being sustainably part of their community's environment, as one specie among the many, in harmony.   

But if we are willing to trade destruction of "others' environment"  so we can have the luxury of buying two smart phones a year and a new vehicle every two years, which run out of green fuel (chopped rainforests), and keep piling with toxic minerals landfills everywhere, then there shall not be any hope for all of humanity or any other living thing on the surface.  Deep ocean life seems to be resilient to extinction events.

Is the goal for all of us to get rich or is it to be able to survive for generations to come with a higher degree of dignity?  Because the middle class in industrialized ( or previously industrialized) societies are the worse kind of whores that the system needs to survive on.  Happy whores, but whores (in a non-sexist meaning).  We are becoming more conscious that it takes a lot of killing and destruction to have certain industrial goods, and that is ok, it is not our fault but the "design of the system".   We are being good little Germans feeding the oven with the bodies of others.  We are just doing our job.

So then it all boils down to a moral issue.  Is selling your ass while justifying genocide worth the pretty dress you are wearing?  Once the population is massively demoralized to the point of resembling Rome of 1st-2nd century you can count the hours of the civilization's demise.  Only this time around there is no "other place" civilization will be reborn at, because this one is all around the earth.  This may very well be the last civilization, and we are living its last moments.  Rich or poor the fate is the same.

It is a global hydra that has been genetically modified to destroy all life on earth.  It is a man made abrupt extinction event.  The previous 4 were naturally caused, this one is clearly the product of a parasite numbering 7,5bil at the moment.  I am not refuting the class issue, it is as much of an issue now as it was in the 1880s (Chicago May-day, Paris commune, etc).  It is not as urgent as fighting for the survival of species though.  Not any more as the clock is ticking.

Note:  A parasite is a life form that is disrupting the balance and harmony of the eco-system so that ecosystem is no longer sustainable.  It is a dying ecosystem because of the parasite.  The question is whether the parasite is consciously suicidal or not.  Because even bacteria learn to stop killing their host as fast and alter their activity to keep the host alive the longest.  But bacteria are smart, we are talking about humans.

Last edited by fungus (2017-11-09 15:45:06)

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#27 2017-11-09 15:02:35

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 650

Re: lol!

cynwulf wrote:

My point is that it can never evolve into a fairer, juster society, free of poverty and corruption - only the reverse until it's final implosion.

Exactly what I said a few posts up.  We are definitely on the downside of the curve.  It's been all downhill since the 60s and 70s.  There were shadows of what was to come even then but life was good . . .

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#28 2017-11-09 16:24:56

sgage
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Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 58

Re: lol!

golinux wrote:
cynwulf wrote:

My point is that it can never evolve into a fairer, juster society, free of poverty and corruption - only the reverse until it's final implosion.

Exactly what I said a few posts up.  We are definitely on the downside of the curve.  It's been all downhill since the 60s and 70s.  There were shadows of what was to come even then but life was good . . .

I totally agree with you and cynwulf. And yet, I still plant trees, and I still tend my garden. Yes, there were shadows of what was to come even back then. I think it was in 1970 that I decided not to bring any children into the world, and I haven't. As an ecologist (research and teaching) for most of my entire adult life, I don't feel great hope. It really does look like we are going to eat the planet.

Interesting stuff for a thread entitled "lol!"...

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#29 2017-11-09 16:30:21

cynwulf
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Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 99

Re: lol!

fungus, my typo error - "thousands" should have been "hundreds" (I went to school, studied "history" and read the odd book as well, but as one ages the "think one thing, type something else" starts to creep in more and more.)

Regarding "design" of course there is no design as such.  A better phrasing would have been "by it's very nature".

The (gradual) formulation of neoliberalism doesn't really afford a "design" to capitalism either.  These systems evolve as a patchwork, unlike socialism which is usually born out of some kind of "ideology" and includes "a plan".

And personally I think "ideology" in itself (freedom of thought/speech included) is what's under attack from "the establishment", not just radical or hostile ideologies, but anything resembling free thought or formulation of opinion.

I've debated with people in the past on similar subjects and for the most part you get word for word repetition of this expert, or that politician or some newspaper columnist, you don't get the sense that people actually think about what's going on.  They say what they believe they are allowed to say, what they're expected to say, within certain (politically correct limits).  No one wants to deviate from the billions of smartphone addicted clones, in case they are lumped in with the lunatic fringe, oddballs or social misfits.

Pretty much agreed on all other points.

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#30 2017-11-09 17:10:13

MiyoLinux
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Registered: 2016-12-05
Posts: 284

Re: lol!

cynwulf wrote:

I've debated with people in the past on similar subjects and for the most part you get word for word repetition of this expert, or that politician or some newspaper columnist, you don't get the sense that people actually think about what's going on.  They say what they believe they are allowed to say, what they're expected to say, within certain (politically correct limits).  No one wants to deviate from the billions of smartphone addicted clones, in case they are lumped in with the lunatic fringe, oddballs or social misfits.

...or, their proof lies within Wikipedia.

This has been an enjoyable thread to read; thanks to all who have participated.


I have been Devuanated, and my practice in the art of Devuanism shall continue until my Devuanization is complete. Until then, I will strive to continue in my understanding of Devuanchology, Devuanprocity, and Devuanivity.

Veni, vidi, vici vdevuaned. I came, I saw, I Devuaned. wink

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#31 2017-11-09 17:10:30

cynwulf
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Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 99

Re: lol!

fungus wrote:

Horrific but expected, and that is half the story we do know.

We're sleep walking into this and the options are fast running out for those who don't want this crap.

This is far worse that UEFI/Secureboot (but doesn't get even 1% of the press that got).  Secureboot at least had some focus among Linux and other *nix users before it all died down and there was also coverage of the likes of Red Hat and Canonical bending over and accepting it and using the MS signing key.  Compared to this, IME and later PSP has flown under the radar.  From what I have read, PSP appears to be an even worse implementation of the same scumware.  It cannot be disabled (easily if at all) and is a far worse situation that secureboot.

If we look at the whole picture, x86 currently has UEFI, secureboot, IME/PSP and proprietary firmware blobs being loaded into, or already resident in, CPUs and other hardware devices.  We have "vendor lock in" and "remote management" (understatement) built in as standard, being bankrolled by consortiums of the big x86 "PC" vendors and MS and it's all being marketed as "security features" or some such bullshit.

IME/PSP has been very "clandestine" in it's roll out, using secret proprietary firmware for the OS, protected by NDAs and using marketing terms to describe the different (and confusing) parts of the technology.  There is also a severe lack of information as to which CPUs actually have it and which don't.  But you can assume that after a certain date/core revision, they do.

Last edited by cynwulf (2017-11-09 17:16:19)

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#32 2017-11-09 18:09:34

fungus
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From: Any witch way
Registered: 2017-07-12
Posts: 364
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Re: lol!

@miyo Wikipedia in most counts, except for some political/philosophical/historical biases, seems as good as an encyclopedia can be.  It is also pretty democratic in the sense that if you have reasonable evidence to contest an article it gets revised or inclusive of the "other" view.  Try doing this with Britanica or something similar.

Then it all fits in a little disk, English still being twice as big as the second language which I think it was Spanish.
So at a cost of a cheap pc and a couple of 1TB disks you could have the whole thing available in some community that has no electricity, let alone internet.  I think it is one of the first things I would miss when the internet goes off (!!)

I am gearing into investing in backing up wikipedia locally.  There is plenty of good scientific (true scientific no technology selling) information for making food, remedies, building homes, cleaning water, producing energy,
alternative ways to deal with human and other waste, ...  identifying things in nature in all parts of the world.
I see it as a good tool to keep around.  If I could hit a button and get rid of all the sports and show businesss crap
it would even be better.

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#33 2017-11-09 18:32:53

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 650

Re: lol!

sgage wrote:

And yet, I still plant trees, and I still tend my garden.

I just planted a fall garden (possible here) and revel in the wild nature surrounding (which is rapidly shrinking - more refugee critters arrive daily).  And local activism is still working here.  We tied Alcoa's stripmine and water grab up in knots for years and now the smelter is shut down.  Did the same to an airport developer for 5 years ongoing - never broke ground.  Last year it took only 3 months of dealing with us for a sludger to withdraw the application that would surely have resulted in the pollution of a major aquifer outcropping and Colorado river floodplain.  I'm getting too old for this . . .

I think it was in 1970 that I decided not to bring any children into the world, and I haven't.

I had that figured out long before then . . .

As an ecologist (research and teaching) for most of my entire adult life, I don't feel great hope. It really does look like we are going to eat the planet.

Mother nature is fighting back but no one is listening.

Interesting stuff for a thread entitled "lol!"...

We are not braindead clones. wink

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#34 2017-11-09 18:38:06

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 650

Re: lol!

cynwulf wrote:

5) The "Military Industrial Complex" - short version: war is good for the economy (so long as it's not fought in your back yard)

You forgot the other MIC - the "MEDICAL Industrial Complex" equally as toxic and deadly . . .

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#35 2017-11-09 18:42:20

MiyoLinux
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Registered: 2016-12-05
Posts: 284

Re: lol!

fungus wrote:

@miyo Wikipedia in most counts, except for some political/philosophical/historical biases, seems as good as an encyclopedia can be.  It is also pretty democratic in the sense that if you have reasonable evidence to contest an article it gets revised or inclusive of the "other" view.  Try doing this with Britanica or something similar.

Then it all fits in a little disk, English still being twice as big as the second language which I think it was Spanish.
So at a cost of a cheap pc and a couple of 1TB disks you could have the whole thing available in some community that has no electricity, let alone internet.  I think it is one of the first things I would miss when the internet goes off (!!)

I am gearing into investing in backing up wikipedia locally.  There is plenty of good scientific (true scientific no technology selling) information for making food, remedies, building homes, cleaning water, producing energy,
alternative ways to deal with human and other waste, ...  identifying things in nature in all parts of the world.
I see it as a good tool to keep around.  If I could hit a button and get rid of all the sports and show businesss crap
it would even be better.

Oy...Yes, I agree that there is much good information in Wikipedia.

My point...without stating my point...was...

...the small area of conspiracy-theorist in me reads Wikipedia with one eye closed since basically anyone can edit it (unless that has changed). big_smile


I have been Devuanated, and my practice in the art of Devuanism shall continue until my Devuanization is complete. Until then, I will strive to continue in my understanding of Devuanchology, Devuanprocity, and Devuanivity.

Veni, vidi, vici vdevuaned. I came, I saw, I Devuaned. wink

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#36 2017-11-09 18:46:15

MiyoLinux
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Registered: 2016-12-05
Posts: 284

Re: lol!

golinux wrote:

You forgot the other MIC - the "MEDICAL Industrial Complex" equally as toxic and deadly . . .

I hate to do this, but this brings out the "stinkin" verbiage in me...

Don't stinkin' get me stinkin' started on that stinkin' topic...


I have been Devuanated, and my practice in the art of Devuanism shall continue until my Devuanization is complete. Until then, I will strive to continue in my understanding of Devuanchology, Devuanprocity, and Devuanivity.

Veni, vidi, vici vdevuaned. I came, I saw, I Devuaned. wink

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#37 2017-11-09 18:59:53

golinux
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Re: lol!

LOL!  I would probably echo that sentiment if I was a part of it.  I decided long ago that I'd rather be dead than suffer the indignity so I'm not a victim.  I'm just an observer looking on with horror.  wink

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#38 2017-11-09 19:10:06

fungus
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From: Any witch way
Registered: 2017-07-12
Posts: 364
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Re: lol!

It is a bit out of my water and knowledge base.  Some people swear by the importance of open source.
I sit down and write some clean good code and you review it and say it is great.  Then you run it through a compiler and produce a nice speedy binary package.  How safe is this binary.  How reliable are available compilers.  Can we know?

If after all this trouble, struggle, to learn and operate a linux system, we end up just like running w10 (in terms of privacy and security) I would rather shoot my better leg.  The more I learn the less likely it seems that the trip is worth it.  I may sound just like one of those systemd trolls, that win10 is not that bad after all, but I can't help it.
A while ago, maybe 2 years, when I was reading intel processor specs, and its pre-engineered capabilities, I almost
flipped.  It holds special cells for DNA and Iris identification and fingerprinting capability?  Is this like a reverse backdoor, that after your google cookies, your facebook pic, and your MSN messg. a reliable ID is made, the DNA/Iris information from some medical database, maybe your dental x-ray too, can be stored back into the hw you are using?
Did you say matrix?
I wonder if my ct scan reads a tumor is google informed before my physician?

What does wikipedia say about the ludites?


3-4 years ago, when things were getting exciting in this demised nation I unfortunately ended up living, all cell phones, including cash and talk sims we used to get from the street for free, had to be registered in person and a copy of the ID had to be issued.  The influx of desperate refugees and transient residents made it possible to make a trade of selling free unused and unopened cards registered at someone's name for 3-5euro$.
Based on a crosstabulation of who you mostly call and who calls you the most, after a little while and based on previous records a very accurate ID can be produced.  Simple statistics on a huge database.  Who is the common link between 10 people? 
Now, in the same poor excuse of a state, they are making it necessary to get a permanent ID for mass transit by in-person registration that has to be used as a sliding a card in every bus and metro/rail thing you enter, even if the charge is a single trip.  This is like having an antenna on your butt what time you went where.  At some point you start doubting whether it was you deciding to go somewhere and do something or you are part of a remote control system executing orders.

Do we really have a choice not to participate in all this while living in an urban environment?

I say it is so hard and you end up being so antisocial and isolated that it still does not matter if you could.  You then have to prove you exist.

What? no cell phone, no facebook, no bus, just feet and bicycle, get away from me you pervert!

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#39 2017-11-09 19:45:35

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 650

Re: lol!

fungus wrote:

Do we really have a choice not to participate in all this while living in an urban environment?

Everything we say, think or do is a choice.  And all those choices have consequences so best to choose wisely.  It is an internal process.  That being said, if I were in an urban environment I would be living the same way I do in nature but the latter is of course more pleasant.

fungus wrote:

I say it is so hard and you end up being so antisocial and isolated that it still does not matter if you could.  You then have to prove you exist.

What? no cell phone, no facebook, no bus, just feet and bicycle, get away from me you pervert!

Why do you care how people perceive you?  The only one who has to live with your decisions is YOU!

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#40 2017-11-09 20:10:58

fungus
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From: Any witch way
Registered: 2017-07-12
Posts: 364
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Re: lol!

We are social beings, we need a small community to survive.  But depends how you really ask this question.  I couldn't really care less if most perceive what I do and how I do it as wrong.

Do you care if neighbors inquire at your smelly yard due to your composting, which I am willing to bet you do?   smile

Do you care getting dirty looks for picking up leave and weed cutting bags from the garbage area taking it back home?

How about undressing outside so you don't drag all the tear gas contaminated clothing back in the house?

But going back to your initial question, what happens to me is unimportant.  I can only see important what society perceives as important, whether bad or good by my judgement.  If you were out defending whales, would that be about you, or about what you believe as a necessity for whales to survive the human slaughtering.  You can choose to keep on sailing or you can fire that torpedo you are carrying around to that Japanese ship.

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#41 2017-11-09 20:37:03

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 650

Re: lol!

fungus wrote:

Do you care if neighbors inquire at your smelly yard due to your composting, which I am willing to bet you do?   smile

Well, I don't compost but what I've had to deal with over the years exceeds what I put out hands down. 

Do you care getting dirty looks for picking up leave and weed cutting bags from the garbage area taking it back home?

Not a bit.  I am a scrounger sometimes by the side of the road etc.  I recycle and reuse others' trash in creative ways.

How about undressing outside so you don't drag all the tear gas contaminated clothing back in the house?

LOL.  After a sweaty day in 100 degree heat, I often strip on the front porch.  But there's not much traffic on the road and I can hear it coming.  smile

But going back to your initial question, what happens to me is unimportant.

In the end none of 'this' matters a whit.  All that matters is the quality of our thoughts, speech and actions and most importantly, the generating force behind them..

I can only see important what society perceives as important, whether bad or good by my judgement.  If you were out defending whales, would that be about you, or about what you believe as a necessity for whales to survive the human slaughtering.  You can choose to keep on sailing or you can fire that torpedo you are carrying around to that Japanese ship.

That's where we part ways.  wink

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#42 2017-11-09 20:56:44

sgage
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Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 58

Re: lol!

These last few comments have brought up the notion of choice. I think people have more choice than they think. There can be tradeoffs, of course. I choose to live in a very rural setting, in New Hampshire USA (basically in the woods). Finding certain kinds of employment is difficult to impossible, unless you're willing to put up with a long commute. The social dynamics are very different in a small town. The types of mental stimulation are very different in the farm/woods. There is plenty to think about, believe me.

But if you feel you need to be involved in a certain field that requires an urban locations, well, that's your choice. How much of the urban 'lifestyle' goes along with that is also largely a choice. Talking about choice inevitably brings up the concepts of "wants" vs. "needs". I think a lot of what people consider 'needs' are really 'wants'.

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#43 2017-11-09 22:04:44

fungus
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From: Any witch way
Registered: 2017-07-12
Posts: 364
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Re: lol!

GoLi  Would you agree that if you spend too long fighting evil, you choose to fight it, you eventually turn to just as evil?  It has a definite impact for sure and it is hard to resist all the influence.  It is hard to stand a few feet back and look at what you have turned into.  But sometimes it is worth the sacrifice.  Definitely some of those obvious, maybe to you, things have lost their way into later generations.  One of my favorite poets ends her poem saying that the final goal is to remain human.

Sgage:  There is a good farm up there called DAAcres https://youtu.be/y8sm1uDPWj8
I wish I could be there.
It takes being hurt, cold, hungry, and thirsty to realize what you really need and what you don't.  Once we whores get this, then we want stuff.  Dignity is all forgotten.  I think it is the only ticket out of this mess, the pursuit of dignity.  To get to the point where you can cash in and deny it.

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#44 2017-11-09 22:44:18

sgage
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Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 58

Re: lol!

fungus: Yes, I am very well acquainted with DAcres - over the years I've taken several of my classes there on field trips. My band even played there once for their "Farm Days" harvest festival. Good times! It is truly a wonderful place with wonderful people - they are trying all sorts of agricultural techniques to see what actually works in our climate/soil/etc. In fact, I just got their monthly newsletter :-)

I learned some of the distinction between wants and needs during a period of long and sometimes grueling wilderness backpacking trips. I remember once on one of these trips, in the middle of nowhere, thinking that the apex of civilizational achievement was a hot toasted English muffin with butter and honey. OK, I might have been a little bit delirious :-)

I've lived in some primitive situations, little cabins in the woods, etc.  At some point I decided that running water was the apex of civilizational achievement (bonus points for hot running water). Refrigeration beyond an icebox was luxury. Electricity was something that other people had.

During all this, I was very happy - this was all by choice, and not trying to convince anybody else of anything. I also had a warm and loving circle of real friends - I was no misanthrope or anything like it. I don't like to be crowded about with people, but I love people.

But I think you have given me my new motto: Let's all remember to remain human!

Last edited by sgage (2017-11-09 22:49:03)

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#45 2017-11-09 22:45:09

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 650

Re: lol!

fungus wrote:

GoLi  Would you agree that if you spend too long fighting evil, you choose to fight it, you eventually turn to just as evil?

This makes no sense to me.  There are only problems/puzzles and solutions.  When there is no possible solution, the best course of action is to move on.

Definitely some of those obvious, maybe to you, things have lost their way into later generations.

There is truth in this.  Instant gratification and propaganda lower the bar for clear thinking and assessment of situations.

One of my favorite poets ends her poem saying that the final goal is to remain human.

To be 'human' is by definition is to be 'flawed' ie. filled with conflicting impulses.  Until that is sorted with very careful observation there is no clarity, peace or end to the misery. 

It takes being hurt, cold, hungry, and thirsty to realize what you really need and what you don't.

This is so true.  And that's what it will take for our consumer culture to wake up.  It's going to be some ride when reality sets in . . .

PS.  I have some beautiful wild 'shrooms in the woods.

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#46 2017-11-09 23:31:05

lazlo
Member
From: the Top Left of the Noosphere
Registered: 2017-05-15
Posts: 31

Re: lol!

I for one welcome our new AI Over Lords!  You see, all algorithms are created equally.  Some are just more equal than others...



lazlo

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#47 2017-11-09 23:33:58

greenjeans
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Registered: 2017-04-07
Posts: 355
Website

Re: lol!

Good lord, the thread title is "LOL"...y'all DO know what that stands for right?


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#48 2017-11-09 23:55:19

sgage
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Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 58

Re: lol!

greenjeans wrote:

Good lord, the thread title is "LOL"...y'all DO know what that stands for right?

LOL! Yes, I remarked on that earlier :-)

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#49 2017-11-10 00:18:11

greenjeans
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Registered: 2017-04-07
Posts: 355
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Re: lol!

golinux wrote:

LOL.  After a sweaty day in 100 degree heat, I often strip on the front porch.

Hell I do that on 70 degree days. Usually sipping a beer.

yup. may do it later.


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Vuu-do GNU/Linux, minimal 64 and 32 bit Devuan-based openbox and mate systems to build on, maximal versions if you prefer your linux fully-loaded.

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#50 2017-11-10 00:31:25

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 650

Re: lol!

greenjeans wrote:
golinux wrote:

LOL.  After a sweaty day in 100 degree heat, I often strip on the front porch.

Hell I do that on 70 degree days. Usually sipping a beer.

At 70 degrees, I'm in a hoodie and down vest.  smile

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