You are not logged in.
- Topics: Active | Unanswered
#2226 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-12 16:47:56
The risk of increased installation complexity required to solve ESR's challenge is why I suggest using a webpage as a pre-installation helper to select the correct installer type. It also means we don't further complicate an already complex to build and complex to use set of installation images. A web based tool as I've proposed is easier to develop, and extend, and if we collect installation reports with accurate descriptions, we can even look use them to inform more tailored installation options for specific hardware along with better documentation of quirks.
I actually like the idea of a simple webpage that can help newcomers to choose the right image to use. I think this would be a perfect concrete task to offer to anybody that is willing to help Devuan. I am pretty sure we could find in DNG at least a couple of people interested in leading on that front.
HND
KatolaZ
I like this idea too. But over the years, I have been surprised how many users - even those who should know better - fail to look for READMEs and other documentation when installing. So this info will need to be annoyingly obvious (just short of a blinking marquee). If we could condense the descriptions (we're all pretty good at that) a link-that-can't-be-ignored could go at the top of the getdevuan page for high visibility. There is already an outline to get the ball rolling in this DNG post:
And please find below a more detailed explanation on the motivations
behind each image:- netinst exist because it's the preferred way of installing minimal
systems and servers;- the install DVD ISO exists because there are many users asking for a
single medium that they can download once and install many times
(e.g., due to bandwidth restrictions), and supports more than just
XFCE;- the 3-cdrom set exists because we had many users asking for a
smaller footprint (again, bandwidth is not cheap everywhere) set of
images that they could use to install offline with a minimal XFCE
desktop;- desktop-live exists because many people asked for a live Devuan
version which could be easily tried and installed. This is also the
preferred Devuan flavour used in reviews;- minimal-live was thought as a recovery tool and has a specific focus
on accessibility (especially regarding visually-impaired and blind
users), and provides a full-featured console-based setup;- so many embedded images exist because ARM vendors have not agreed on
a common standard;- qcow, vagrant, and vcox images exist because many Devuan users like
to have ready-to-use images for their VMs;- on top of those, there are also the usual mini.iso and netboot
images, although not advertised on files.devuan.org.
Anybody want to step up to make a draft for that page?
#2227 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-12 00:26:27
There is no reason that Devuan can't or shouldn't have an audience appeal that also caters to the *buntu | Mageia | Mint type of user - ie those that just want something that is simple to install and works well out of the box.
I think that creating something simple that works OOTB should fall to derivatives much as 'buntu and Mint are derived from Debian. In fact, Devuan has considered offering just a base install leaving all the "niceties" - ie desktopy things - to derivatives. Even now, there is a quite a list of derivatives to suit different needs with each having their loyal following. I still think that would be the best way to go. Perhaps some day you could provide a "Centurion" derivative that manifests your vision!!
If this forum and our ML were overrun with 'buntu refugees, I think we would lose much of our core base that has made Devuan so unique. That's exactly what happened in 2013 on the Debian forums when they started catering to n00bies. There was a HUGE exodus when many (if not most) of the knowledgeable users left the sinking ship. It's been all downhill from there.
Devuan is in many ways, the ark that is preserving the knowledge of what Debian was and could have been. Please let's not turn it into another 'buntu for the masses.
#2228 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-08 23:32:59
I tried a Devuan install from scratch on the NUC, failed due to the NIC problem, then did a Mint install from scratch.
Indeed you did and I found it:
The problem turned out to be that the Devuan ASCII kernel is too old. The list of vendor-ID/subtype pairs for the e1000 didn't include the subtype the NIC on the NUC has.
Apologies for not remembering to connect those two pieces that were so many paras apart. I'll try to do better next time. 
#2229 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-08 19:37:43
I took what he wrote to mean that he tried to install Devuan over top of Mint. Any other way wouldn't be possible, right? It seems he is knowledgeable enough to know that.
He said, "The first, my wife's home-office machine, is "minx", an Intel NUC running Mint 19 - I've tried to Devuanize that and failed." I have no idea what that means because it contains zero detail about what he tried.
Even Debian advises not to use Mint/Ubuntu Packages. This from the Debian Wiki
Don't make a FrankenDebian
Repositories that can create a FrankenDebian if used with Debian Stable:
- Debian testing release (currently buster)
- Debian unstable release (also known as sid)
- Ubuntu, Mint or other derivative repositories are not compatible with Debian!
- Ubuntu PPAs
So how is the failure Devuan's fault?
Then came the rant about how confusing Devuan installers are. Well, how are Devuan isos so different from the selection that Debian offers except that the RPi stuff is at a different location? That indicates a (rather shocking) lack of familiarity with Debian.
You might remember these two threads (in which you participated) on this very forum relating to Mint (there may be more):
Migrating from Mint (includes some discussion of (or whining about) "user friendliness")
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2522
Linux Mint Devuan Edition?
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2317
#2230 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-08 17:37:58
Panopticon wrote:So if you have never done a Debian install, your frustration it seems is not really based on any facts is it, or am i missing something here?
He has tried a Devuan install:
Not with the Debian installer, it seems.
The first, my wife's home-office machine, is "minx", an Intel NUC running Mint 19 - I've tried to Devuanize that and failed.
Mint is NOT Debian/Devuan. Not at all surprising that trying to Devuanize Mint failed.
#2231 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 22:25:25
I do think Devuan has the potential to catapult past the systemd distros, but is this what the dev's want? If not, should they want this? Was this ever considered? How big of a project is Devuan prepared to become, etc...?
Thinking of the future is a waste of time and energy. Wanting also. We are quite practical and do what needs to be done NOW. The future will manifest as it will depending on where contributors take it. If someone wants to write an installer as esr describes, they are welcome to do so. We at Devuan are collaborators and will work with anyone who cares to provide additional functionality/features.
Has ESR reached out to Devuan via IRC or other methods?
Yes.
#2232 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 21:22:35
He could have been a bit more tactful but that's no reason to reject everything he said.
I don't think we rejected everything he said. I think we invited him (or someone with the itch to so) to provide the functionality that he envisions.
#2233 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 20:37:08
The subtitle of this thread - "How to avoid having users - and how not to" - begs the question - "what users?". IOW . . . users have different preferences and needs. It's unlikely that one size will fit all. Choice and diversity in the Linux eco-system is a good thing and Devuan offers a choice. There are users who will like and support what we are doing and others who won't. We are here for those who resonate with what we offer and invite them to add their talents to improve what we are doing either directly or by creating a unique derivative.
Devuan is not just about avoiding systemd but also about providing a variety of init options. In fact, Devuan and Debian devs are now working together to keep init diversity alive in Debian. Collaboration like that is a good thing.
Devuan never has been (and is unlikely to ever be) about self-promotion or marketing or out-competing other distributions. We do what we do and offer it as a choice to the Linux community. It will not be everyone's choice. But it will become what its users contribute to its improvement and growth. Cliche alert . . . actions speak louder than words.
#2234 Re: Devuan » A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to » 2018-12-07 09:22:34
We are doing our thing and quite happy doing it.
I can't remember anyone ever whining about lack of "user friendliness" or expressing a desire to vanquish the dominance of Ubuntu/Mint. In fact, if the VUAs had decided to fork Mint, I would not have spent the last four years committed to Devuan.
Different strokes. Devuan may not be to your liking. If you feel changes to Devuan are needed, offer them for consideration. Not just talk but tangible alternatives. Whether you stick around or not is a decision you will have to make for yourself.
#2235 Re: Devuan » Migrating from Mint » 2018-12-06 21:03:21
Please read this page:
https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list
You'll need to enable the correct repositories and comment the CDROM line.
and the Release Notes:
https://files.devuan.org/README.txt
And don't forget:
apt-get upgradeafter the update.
#2236 Re: Devuan » Migrating from Mint » 2018-12-06 18:51:55
Please post your sources.list
#2237 Re: Other Issues » Can't start UGENE » 2018-12-06 02:42:45
The only thing which looks suspicious to me is that there is no "cleanlooks" theme in this installation (as well as in another Xubuntu 14.04, where UGENE however does not have problems). There is "clearlooks" instead.
I have never seen or heard of a "cleanlooks" theme. I'm thinking it's a typo or inaccurate translation somewhere along the line.
#2238 Re: Installation » Single Partition Encryption » 2018-12-05 16:45:13
Ps. is there a way to upload desktop images directly to the forum?
Unfortunately no. Sorry I can't answer your more pressing question. Never done encryption.
#2239 Re: Other Issues » Problems with Devuan Ascii. » 2018-12-04 22:42:34
Also make sure it's unlocked . Just go through all the preferences to set it up exactly as you want.
#2240 Off-topic » The End of Trust » 2018-12-04 02:27:46
- golinux
- Replies: 10
For your reading pleasure:
https://www.eff.org/the-end-of-trust
Most of it is familiar but I did discover something that I didn't know. Tucked away in the sidebar on page 226 is this interesting factoid:
"The website freedom-to-tinker.com, hosted by Princeton’s
Center for Information Technology Policy, published a study
highlighting a particularly invasive data-mining software
called “session replay scripts” that are being used by an
increasing number of websites. According to the study, session
replay scripts “record your keystrokes, mouse movements,
and scrolling behavior, along with the entire contents of the
pages you visit.” Unlike most third-party analytics services,
which provide aggregate statistics of your searches and the
pages you visit, session replay scripts actually record your
individual browsing session in its entirety, “as if someone is
looking over your shoulder”.The study lists tens of thousands of websites that were
either found recording users’ browsing sessions or have the
capability to do so. Among the big-name sites are xfinity.com,
windows.com, texas.gov, petco.com, and fandango.com. The
following sites were also found on that list."
—Landon Bates
Here are links to the study and full list:
https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2017/11/1 … y-scripts/
https://webtransparency.cs.princeton.ed … sites.html
It just keeps getting worse and worse . . .
#2241 Re: Devuan » Migrating from Mint » 2018-12-02 21:39:38
Reminder: Do not use Ubuntu or Mint packages on Devuan
#2242 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » ceres upgrade removed my xfce4 desktop » 2018-12-01 16:41:10
. . . at the moment you will not get a functioning session management in ceres.
Indeed. ATM my beowulf /ceres mini.iso install with Xfce on VB is not saving any settings between reboots.
#2243 Re: Off-topic » The only thing I don't love about Devuan » 2018-11-30 05:26:04
Returning the favor. LOL!
#2244 Off-topic » Our dystopian present » 2018-11-30 05:19:04
- golinux
- Replies: 2
This is a very illuminating read:
#2245 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Closest and fast Desktop like Qube for Linux? » 2018-11-29 00:49:57
Ok... now I know that I'm not in the target group of it...
Me either.
#2246 Re: Other Issues » How long are releases supported? » 2018-11-28 23:04:24
Yes, we are tracking Debian.
#2247 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » How do I install Nextcloud-client? » 2018-11-27 21:22:10
It is not recommended to use PPAs or third party repos on Devuan or Debian for that matter. Do so at your own risk.
#2248 Re: News & Announcements » We're now 800 strong here! » 2018-11-27 02:19:52
Welcome! Both Roger Leigh and Eric Raymond have been hanging around lately. And Bruce Perens posts occasionally on the DNG mail list. That's a vote of confidence for what we're doing.
#2249 Re: Devuan » First impressions in Devuan » 2018-11-26 16:50:24
Well . . . a "tyro" might not know much of the backstory. 
Any objections to splitting off the Murdock stuff to a separate thread? Not sure exactly where to put it though. Suggestions? Or maybe those posts should be nuked? Thoughts?
#2250 Re: Devuan » First impressions in Devuan » 2018-11-24 18:00:10
That is some fantasy you've conjured up!!
Is it? His death and the circumstances around it are very suspect.
There are some very dark and deep rabbit holes out there. Been down too many to completely disagree with cynicfm.
Be willing to entertain a certain thought and some research in this day and age may surprise you.
This may not be the place for this conversation , but his death was not "normal".
Have to admit his vote on systemd would probably been the main deciding factor.
Seen too much evil in this world to completely dismiss his claim. It has some truth in it.
His last few tweets were very strange. Also have to consider if he made them or who had his phone?
I do not believe everything I am told unless I can prove it to myself. Murdock and his death just left me with an uneasy feeling
and no way to prove any theory.
Conclusion= I do not know the truth about his death.
I agree with pretty much all of that. Even took a screen shot of his final tweets. I do know that Bruce Perens, the second leader of Debian who knew Ian very well, debunked some of the conspiracy stuff on DNG a while back. I'll try to find some of those posts. In any case, this is probably not the right place to continue this discussion.
Board footer
