@JWM-Kit Thanks for the nice feedback.  I hope you will let us know your results, if you run that test.  The more we learn, the better we can understand how these audio systems work and how to optimize our use of them.

Thanks, aluma.  I appreciate the added perspective.

Early on, I replaced PulseAudio (which came in default install) with PipeWire.  And yes, firefox-esr does produce audio when PipeWire is enabled.  Of course, pipewire-pulse is also automatically running in that situation, so no surprise in getting audio from firefox-esr.

I typically run with PipeWire disabled, in order to keep things simple and because I really have no need for its broad AV capabilities.  It's nice to know it's there should I ever need it, but I have always gotten be with good old ALSA on all my machines, over decades of time.  And I AM a music performer (acoustical) and avid listener, but one stream at a time.

Right now, I need to turn on PipeWIre if I am going to listen to a YouTube video on one of my Devuan-based PCs.  I guess I could just leave it on, but it just bugs me to do so, as I like to keep things as simple as possible.  (This is why I use the runit init.) 

Another solution, of course, is to dump Firefox; but that would hurt.  I have fine tuned it over the years, and some of its features really click with my work flow.

I'm betting I'll find a way to get firefox-esr working without PipeWire/PulseAudio.  I'll check back in here when I find that way.

I am the OP in this thread.  I appreciate all the feedback, as it broadens my knowledge on this issue.  Unfortunately, while I am a long-time Linux user, I am not knowledgeable enough to pinpoint how antiX manages to run beautifully with no trace of systemd (init) or elogind (seat mgmt, networking, device mgmt, etc.).  I suspect there are two key areas that are involved:

1) antiX does not use a full-blown desktop environment like Plasma or Xfce.  Instead, it gives you three window-manager options.  I use IceWM, and have found it easy to learn, easy to customize, and capable to meet all my needs.  I experimented with PCLOS, which also avoids elogind; but it uses Xfce, Mate, or Plasma.  I found that X would not run under Xfce unless Pulseaudio is installed.  I had more luck running Mate with plain ALSA, but had no way to pre-amp the sound for laptop speakers (ALSA plugin not available).  Anyway, I'm guessing that using a WM instead of a full-blown DE makes it easier to get around elogind.

2) Also, antiX has its own "nosystemd" repository (in addition to the Debian repos)
(http://mirrors.rit.edu/mxlinux/mx-packages/antix/bullseye bullseye/nosystemd amd64 Packages)
which reflects a tremendous amount of work by the lead developer in avoiding the complexities of systemd and its components.

I am very happy running antiX on my machines, whether ancient or squeaky new.  At boot, my ancient laptop is idling at around 150MB and is wicked fast.  And I use it on my newer boxes because it is so fast, flexible, and community sourced.

I always like to have a backup plan, though.  Devuan has been very reliable on one of my desktop boxes, and I hope the distro becomes increasingly successful.  The absence of the init from systemd is a real plus, but elogind seems to be the lion's share of systemd; so Devuan is not completely good old modular, flexible, economical Linux (yet).  It is asking a lot to work around elogind, as it has tentacles in so many key areas.  I was therefore surprised and excited to see the release notes for Daedalus mention the possiblity of avoiding elogind.   

Based on comments in this thread, it sounds like it will take some experimenting.  I'm going to try freeing up another machine for that purpose. 

Should anyone discover further clues, I would very much welcome their addition to this thread.

Thanks, again, for your responses.

Upon much further review, I have a solution.  Just in case anyone else using Devuan xfce is interested in using the Update Indicator and encounters errors in Synaptic, I am posting the following account of some workarounds.  It is lengthy, but I hope not offensively so.

It IS possible to run package-update-indicator in Devuan, but this requires some adjustments.

First of all, the package gnome-packagekit is listed as a “recommends” for installing with package-update-indicator.  In fact, it will install by default if you do not specify --no-install-recommends.

If you do NOT install gnome-packagekit, package-update-indicator will function only partially.  It will show you when updates are available, but it will not open a window for you to view and choose what to update.  Of course, now that you are alerted of pending updates, you can easily apply them via Synaptic or CLI.

If you DO install gnome-packagekit (either concurrently or subsequently), it provides the shared library gpk-update-viewer.  This is what package-update-indicator uses to show you available updates and lets you select what to install.  That is, you now have a fully functioning Update Indicator.

Unfortunately, there is an undesirable side effect.  If you now run Synaptic > Settings > Repositories, you will not be shown the Synaptic repository display.  You will get no response.  Running this from the CLI will show you an error message, which appears right after you click on the Repositories menu item:

john@devuan:~$ sudo synaptic
[sudo] password for john: 
ERROR:root:Cannot import UbuntuDrivers: No module named 'UbuntuDrivers'
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/bin/software-properties-gtk", line 101, in <module>
    app = SoftwarePropertiesGtk(datadir=options.data_dir, options=options, file=file)
  File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/softwareproperties/gtk/SoftwarePropertiesGtk.py", line 109, in __init__
    SoftwareProperties.__init__(self, options=options, datadir=datadir)
  File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/softwareproperties/SoftwareProperties.py", line 109, in __init__
    self.reload_sourceslist()
  File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/softwareproperties/SoftwareProperties.py", line 599, in reload_sourceslist
    self.distro.get_sources(self.sourceslist)    
  File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/aptsources/distro.py", line 91, in get_sources
    raise NoDistroTemplateException(
aptsources.distro.NoDistroTemplateException: Error: could not find a distribution template for Devuan/chimaera

There seems to be a problem associated with /usr/bin/software-properties-gtk, caused by a lack of distribution templates for Devuan.

Through the process of uninstalling and reinstalling package-update-indicator and gnome-package kit a few times, I observed that when gnome-packagekit is installed, you get not only gpk-update-viewer (discussed above), but also software-properties-gtk.

software-properties-gtk is a Python3 script from Canonical.  It says it is a “graphical abstraction of the sources.list.”
It is found in /usr/bin.
A launcher is automatically created in the xfce Whisker Menu, with the name “Software & Updates.”

If you run this script, it will fail to run.  Trying it from the CLI will show you the problem: you get the exact same error message (see above) that you get when you try to view your repositories in Synaptic.  That is, the system “could not find a distribution template for Devuan/chimaera.”

Upon further investigation:

software-properties-gtk appears tied to these related items:
/usr/bin/add-apt-repository
/usr/share/python-apt/templates

The latter contains templates for Ubuntu and Debian, which is to be expected as the script comes from Canonical.  For each distro, there are two files: an “info” file and a “mirrors” file.  The latter lists the available mirrors for each localization.  The former defines the urls for the various repos, series by series.

By default, there are no such entries for Devuan, so this leads to the error message we get when we try to run “Software & Packages,” (aka software-properties-gtk).

But can this somehow explain the problem with Synaptic, as it will no longer show us our repositories, and gives us the same error message as Software & Packages?

I checked on my Peppermint OS machine (based on Debian Bullseye), where I also have Update Indicator and Software & Updates running.  Software & Updates is running fine on there.  When you launch it, you get a multi-tabbed menu of options for
- adding/choosing/enabling various repositories
- scheduling checks for updates
- and more

Even more interesting --- when you run Synaptic > Settings > Repositories on Peppermint, you get the elaborate “Software & Updates” menu, rather than Synaptic's traditional simple “Repositories” menu that just shows you a listing of your distros and which are enabled.

That is, the installation of gnome-packagekit has somehow replaced Synaptic's normal “Repositories” menu with the “Software & Updates” menu (software-properties-gtk). 

On the Devuan system, however, this does not work, as software-properties-gtk eventually depends on having Devuan distribution templates that do not exist in /usr/share/python-apt/templates.  Hence the error message
“could not find a distribution template for Devuan/chimaera” when trying to view the repos via Synaptic.

So what to do?  Some options:

- Dump Update Indicator (package-update-indicator) and find another way to get alerts

- Use Update Indicator without gnome-packagekit.  This will show an alert when updates are available.   Although it will not be able to help you apply the updates (without gnome-packagekit), you can easily use Synaptic or the CLI to run the updates.

- Use Update Indicator WITH gnome-packagekit, and create python-apt template files for Devuan, so that Software & Updates will run properly and not break Synaptic.  It appear that Richard Missenden has done something very much like that:
https://bugs.devuan.org/db/54/549.html
This seems fraught with risk, however, as periodic maintenance may be required, especially as Devuan evolves.

- Use Update Indicator WITH gnome-packagekit, but subsequently remove software-properties-gtk ("Software & Updates), which came along with gnome-packagekit.  I gave this a try, and Synaptic was instantly fixed, without needing to reinstall it, or even reboot or log out/in.  Running Synaptic > Settings > Repositories now shows the old familiar “Repositories” menu.  Of course, “Software & Updates” is no longer present in the Whisker Menu. 

The above solution now allows us to autoremove the packages orphaned by software-properties-gtk:

john@devuan:~$ sudo apt autoremove
[sudo] password for john: 
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  python3-distro-info python3-software-properties software-properties-common
  unattended-upgrades
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 4 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 961 kB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

Both the Update Indicator and Synaptic are now running fine.  I will monitor both carefully for a while, and report back on any anomalies.

Well, a couple of updates have finally arrived, so an opportunity to test the re-installed package-update-indicator.

When the updates arrived, the indicator's icon in the system tray changed from a globe (the earth) to a gold-colored gear wheel.

Hovering over the icon revealed a little dialog box stating "Software Updates."  (Normally it would say "Up to Date.")

So far so good.

However, clicking on the icon does not give me the opportunity to actual perform the updates.  Instead, the option "Install updates" is still grayed out.

Meanwhile, both the CLI and Synaptic show that two updates are - in fact available.

So, at this point, Update Indicator is installed WITHOUT the recommended gnome-packagekit, and the Indicator only partially works.  It DOES indicate that there are updates, but won't open the actual updater window.  Synaptic is working fine, showing me available updates, and also showing me what repos are currently enabled.

All this is pretty much a repeat of what happened to me in previous attempts, before I purged and re-installed both Update Indicator and Synaptic.

Presumably, if I now install gnome-packagekit, I will once again have Update Indicator working 100%, but Synaptic will no longer show me my repo listing.  That is what happened in my first two tries.  I can have either Synaptic or Update Indicator working 100%, but not both at the same time.

The two programs play together fine in Debian xfce and in Peppermint OS xfce (which is based on Debian).  I'm not smart enough to guess why they're not 100% compatible in my Devuan install.  I haven't made many changes to the as-installed system, and my few added packages have all been from the main stable repo.  No backports, experimentals, etc.

Certainly not a deal breaker.  The Update Indicator is just a handy convenience.  I could go with unattended-upgrades, but I really like to see what is changing on my system, preferably before it changes --- and have the option to skip certain changes if I haven't had the foresight to put a hold on them.

I may just set up a  cron job to remind me to check for updates on the CLI, so I don't miss out on any security updates.

Thanks, again, for the various suggestions from everyone.

@HoaS: Sorry for the late response.  I have been waiting for some updates to arrive, so I could see if the Update Indicator actually alerts me to available updates.  So far, no recent updates (I check via terminal).  I figured I would add a response to this thread once I got the results.

And, yes, I have considered unattended-upgrades as a viable alternative.  Once I get completely at ease with Devuan, that may well be where I end up.  However, for the moment, I am interested in seeing exactly what updates are available before I choose to allow them.  I have a couple of apps that I rely upon regularly that only work properly in older package versions; I therefore have them on (apt-mark) "hold" status.  So far, apt seems to be honoring that status, and is not offering to upgrade them.  Nevertheless, I am still interested in seeing specifically what is available to update, and from what repo, before signing off on any updates.

Update Indicator has helped me get comfortable with how updates are delivered on my Debian installs, and I am now following that same learning curve on Devuan. 

As you suggested, though, I will likely end up going with unattended-upgrades once I have learned how the updates are coming down, and how well my "holds" are being honored.

Thanks for taking time to help me along!

As promised, I am following up (just for the record) with a report on performance of package-update-indicator now that some actual package updates are available for detection.  Here are my observations:

* With package-update-indicator installed and gnome-package-kit (recommends) also installed, the Update Indicator does detect available updates.  Its icon changes to a different shape, and clicking it allows me to choose "Install updates."  When I do so, its window opens and shows me the available updates, allowing me to select which ones to update at this time.  Unfortunately, it shows me MORE updates than I find when I run sudo apt update in the terminal.  The names of the "extra" packages shown by the Update Indicator are almost duplicates of some of the other packages, but not exactly.  Very confusing!

* In addition to the above issue, with package-update-indicator and gnome-packagekit  both installed, Synaptic will no longer show me the repositories -- which is the reason for my original post. 

* If I completely remove gnome-packagekit, the package-update-indicator will not show me avaialble updates, and Synaptic remains broken, even after a reboot.

* If I then completely also remove package-update-indicator, then reboot, Synaptic still remains broken.

* If I then completely remove Synaptic and reinstall it, Synaptic is fixed, and it shows me my repositories list.

I have tried these steps in various combinations and sequences, interspersed with reboots, for several hours, and have not found a combination wherein both package-update-indicator and Synaptic work together without problems.

On my system:

* package-update-indicator will not run (i.e., show me available updates) without gnome-package-kit being installed

* When package-update-indicator is running, Synaptic refuses to show me my repositories.

* When package-update-indicator and gnome-packagekit are removed, Synaptic remains broken until it is reinstalled.

Since xfce does not have an update indicator, I have used package-update-indicator to alert me to updates on Debian and on PeppermintOS (which is Debian-based).  For some reason I have yet to discover, it is conflicting with Synaptic on my Devuan install.  Frustrating, but certainly not a big deal.

I have removed package-update-indicator and gnome-packagekit, so that Synaptic will function completely.

I will probably set up a cron job to remind me to check for updates on a regular basis, until I just get into the habit.

Thanks, again, to those of you who were so kind to offer me assistance in trying to resolve this conflict.

Some follow-up thoughts (in case someone might be interested in this issue down the road):

I checked on the Peppermint machine and the Debian machine where I have been using package-update-indicator without disturbing Synaptic.  In both cases, the "recommends" package gnome-packagekit was - by default - installed along with package-update-indicator.  Both those distros use systemd.

Yet, for some reason,  gnome-packagekit causes a problem with Synaptic in Devuan. 

I am not knowledgeable enough to know why this might be.

In any case, the info at

https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-pack … ex.html.en

seems to indicate it is redundant with respect to Synaptic at best, and a problem in the case of Devuan.

To rolfie:  Thanks for sharing!  I planned to try that myself, but had to be away from the machine for a few hours.  I will try it here shortly and report back.

To head_on_a_stick: I have not installed anything from experimental, or from proposed-updates, or from backports.

Of my own choosing, I have only installed perhaps five packages, and ALL are from
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged/ chimaera main contrib non-free
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged/ chimaera-updates main contrib non-free
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged/ chimaera-security main contrib non-free

The package I installed at all recently was package-update-indicator, which brought along gnome-packagekit as a recommend.  Both of those are in
merged chimaera/main

The only reason I have experimental, proposed-updates, and backports listed in my sources.list is to provide myself a reminder of the only six repos that are valid to use in Devuan.  Of course, I have them commented out, as they are not something I want included in regular upgrades.  But, if I should ever want to try something from backports, it's already listed there, so all I would have to do is uncomment it temporarily.

Thanks for your continuing support!

Thank you both for your kind responses.

As I have already noted, Synaptic was working just fine until today, when it would no longer show me the repos (which it did before today).

I don't know what caused this change.  I am just wondering if installing package-update-indicator yesterday might have caused the issue.  I have used package-update-indicator in Debian for some time, without incident.  I was hoping it would be OK to use it in Devuan.  I am well aware that the Devuan repos are exclusive, and I have been religious about following that policy.  Therefore, I was happy to see that this package is - in fact - included in the Devuan repos, as I noted earlier in my original post:

john@devuan:~$ apt-cache policy package-update-indicator
package-update-indicator:
  Installed: 7-1
  Candidate: 7-1
  Version table:
*** 7-1 500
        500 http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

That is, package-update-indicator is included in deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera/main amd64 packages!

I did NOT get this package from an Ubuntu, Debian, Mint, or whatever repo.

So I am confused about the reference to UbuntuDrivers in the error message. 

Also, I don't know if having gnome-packagekit dragged in as a dependency could somehow be responsible.

And further, I don't even know if package-update-indicator is the actual cause of the problem with Synaptic.

If no one has experience with this problem, I will have to take my chances and experiment further.  - I can uninstall package-update-indicator and see if Synaptic returns to normal.  If so, it would suggest that a package I got from the Devuan repo broke Synaptic, and I should mention it as a "bug."

However, if someone knows some OTHER reason (besides package-update-indicator) that Synaptic would stop showing my repos, I would be grateful to hear about it.

Thanks, again, for the responses.

Thank you, Head_on_a_Stick, for this added information.  It looks like it should be very useful when in need of building kernel modules (a concept that I am only just beginning to learn and understand).  This is one of the reasons I turned to Debian -- and now to Devuan -- to get closer to the workings of a Linux system and learn more about how Linux systems actually work.

Just now, I did install and prepare module-assistant, and I found that the broadcom-sta module was listed in the accessible modules.

I see that the Debian wiki provides some detail of the scope and usage of this tool (although the article admits this tool is underdocumented):

https://wiki.debian.org/ModuleAssistant

Both command-line and interactive modes are available (you probably already know that).

Thank you very much for the continuing education.