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#1 2021-01-09 22:44:41

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

After running following command:

apt-get install libbcmail-java libbcpkix-java libbcprov-java libservlet3.1-java openjdk-8-jdk openjdk-8-jdk-headless openjdk-8-jre openjdk-8-jre-headless -t=ascii-backports

After that TDM does not start anymore, its log:

Jan 10 01:32:35 tdm_config[8368] info: Cannot open master configuration file /etc/trinity/tdm/tdmdistrc

X.Org X Server 1.19.2
Release Date: 2017-03-02
X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0
Build Operating System: Linux 4.19.0-13-amd64 x86_64 Debian
Current Operating System: Linux workstation
Build Date: 09 December 2020  10:09:47AM
xorg-server 2:1.19.2-1+deb9u7 (https://www.debian.org/support) 
Current version of pixman: 0.34.0
        Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org
        to make sure that you have the latest version.
Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
        (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
        (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
(==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Sun Jan 10 01:32:35 2021
(==) Using system config directory "/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d"
/opt/trinity/bin/tdm_greet: error while loading shared libraries: libtderandr.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
Jan 10 01:32:35 tdm: :0[8388] error: Abnormal termination of greeter for display :0, code 127, signal 0
(II) Server terminated successfully (0). Closing log file.

Trying to upgrade Trinity to 14.0.9 and 14.0.10 does NOT help at all, I get the same error with newer versions.

Last edited by bimon (2021-01-09 22:47:25)

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#2 2021-01-10 01:18:45

fsmithred
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Registered: 2016-11-25
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Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

I have no idea what would do that.

Look in /var/log/apt/history.log to see what really got installed or removed.

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#3 2021-01-10 01:34:03

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

apt-get install libbcmail-java libbcpkix-java libbcprov-java libservlet3.1-java openjdk-8-jdk openjdk-8-jdk-headless openjdk-8-jre openjdk-8-jre-headless -t=ascii-backports
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
Suggested packages:
  libbcmail-java-doc libbcpkix-java-doc libbcprov-java-doc openjdk-8-demo openjdk-8-source visualvm icedtea-8-plugin fonts-indic
The following packages will be upgraded:
  libbcmail-java libbcpkix-java libbcprov-java libservlet3.1-java openjdk-8-jdk openjdk-8-jdk-headless openjdk-8-jre openjdk-8-jre-headless
8 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 150 not upgraded.
Need to get 0 B/43.1 MB of archives.
After this operation, 105 kB of additional disk space will be used.

There is nothing except java in the actually upgraded list and still though it breaks Trinity somehow.

I am now after zfs rollback to a savepoint before trying to upgrade java.

apt-get dist-upgrade -t=ascii-backports

does the same break of the Trinity.

Last edited by bimon (2021-01-10 09:29:46)

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#4 2021-01-10 01:46:59

bimon
Member
Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

May be my package hold list somehow is relevant to the problem?

Last edited by bimon (2021-01-11 12:42:18)

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#5 2021-01-10 10:00:51

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,269  
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Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

bimon wrote:
apt-get dist-upgrade -t=ascii-backports

Attempting to upgrade the entire system from a backports repository is a really bad idea.

What is the disposition of your sources?

apt-cache policy

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2021-01-10 10:02:48)


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#6 2021-01-10 10:50:52

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

I have narrowed it down to these packages:

apt-get install openjdk-8-jdk openjdk-8-jre -t=ascii-backports
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree        
Reading state information... Done
The following additional packages will be installed:
  openjdk-8-jdk-headless openjdk-8-jre-headless
Suggested packages:
  openjdk-8-demo openjdk-8-source visualvm icedtea-8-plugin fonts-indic
The following packages will be upgraded:
  openjdk-8-jdk openjdk-8-jdk-headless openjdk-8-jre openjdk-8-jre-headless
4 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 154 not upgraded.
Need to get 0 B/38.2 MB of archives.
After this operation, 105 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] y
(Reading database ... 614763 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack .../openjdk-8-jdk_8u275-b01-1~deb9u1_amd64.deb ...
Unpacking openjdk-8-jdk:amd64 (8u275-b01-1~deb9u1) over (8u272-b10-0+deb9u1) ...
Preparing to unpack .../openjdk-8-jdk-headless_8u275-b01-1~deb9u1_amd64.deb ...                                                                                                                                                                                                
Unpacking openjdk-8-jdk-headless:amd64 (8u275-b01-1~deb9u1) over (8u272-b10-0+deb9u1) ...                                                                                                                                                                                      
Preparing to unpack .../openjdk-8-jre_8u275-b01-1~deb9u1_amd64.deb ...                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Unpacking openjdk-8-jre:amd64 (8u275-b01-1~deb9u1) over (8u272-b10-0+deb9u1) ...                                                                                                                                                                                               
Preparing to unpack .../openjdk-8-jre-headless_8u275-b01-1~deb9u1_amd64.deb ...                                                                                                                                                                                                
Unpacking openjdk-8-jre-headless:amd64 (8u275-b01-1~deb9u1) over (8u272-b10-0+deb9u1) ...                                                                                                                                                                                      
Processing triggers for mime-support (3.60) ...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Processing triggers for desktop-file-utils (0.23-1) ...                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Processing triggers for libc-bin (2.24-11+deb9u4) ...                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Processing triggers for hicolor-icon-theme (0.15-1) ...                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Setting up openjdk-8-jre-headless:amd64 (8u275-b01-1~deb9u1) ...                                                                                                                                                                                                               
update-binfmts: warning: current package is openjdk-8, but binary format already installed by openjdk-6                                                                                                                                                                        
Setting up openjdk-8-jdk-headless:amd64 (8u275-b01-1~deb9u1) ...                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Setting up openjdk-8-jre:amd64 (8u275-b01-1~deb9u1) ...                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Setting up openjdk-8-jdk:amd64 (8u275-b01-1~deb9u1) ...                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Processing triggers for libc-bin (2.24-11+deb9u4) ...

Full list:

The following packages will be upgraded:
  openjdk-8-jdk openjdk-8-jdk-headless openjdk-8-jre openjdk-8-jre-headless

This definitely breaks Trinity, just tested this a few minutes ago again.

Last edited by bimon (2021-01-10 10:51:41)

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#7 2021-01-10 10:53:03

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

.

Last edited by bimon (2021-01-11 12:41:42)

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#8 2021-01-10 10:57:05

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
bimon wrote:
apt-get dist-upgrade -t=ascii-backports

Attempting to upgrade the entire system from a backports repository is a really bad idea.

Do you mean that it is better to narrow upgrades to backports only for a very few set of packages which are needed very much?
I am not sure if it is possible at all to avoid version collisions, it is easier to keep the latest available versions for all packages.

I have used to dist-upgrade from a backports since I began using Debian since etch v4 and it never broke my system ever.
Generally at first I dist-upgrade from the current (generally oldstable) repo and only then from backports, it always worked fine for me for many years, it was rock solid that is why I was often at oldstable level. It is first time since etch when I see an upgrade from backports in oldstable to break something, earlier it could be used in production without worrying breaks something, well anyway I always do zfs snapshots of course.

Even for this Devuan ASCII earlier during about two years I have made dist-upgrade from backports many times already generally about each 3 months  just to include all available packages into upgrade and it worked fine up to this point of time.

I guess Java upgrade may somehow break paths for binaries or libraries, because according to the log Trinity after Java upgrade cannot find its library which is still present on the disk actually in the same place as earlier.

/opt/trinity/bin/tdm_greet: error while loading shared libraries: libtderandr.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

The file path is: /opt/trinity/lib/libtderandr.so.0

Last edited by bimon (2021-01-10 11:18:12)

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#9 2021-01-10 11:28:27

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Oh, sorry, it is my fault, a few months ago I have removed Trinity ld.so config trinitylibs.conf from /etc/ld.so.conf.d and used cached state of ld.so.conf

Java upgrade regenerated ld.so cache and therefore removed Trinity libs from ld.so.conf cache, fixed it and it works fine now.

Last edited by bimon (2021-01-10 11:30:14)

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#10 2021-01-10 12:29:16

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,269  
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Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

bimon wrote:

Do you mean that it is better to narrow upgrades to backports only for a very few set of packages which are needed very much?

Yes, that is the official recommendation from the Debian developers:

Backports cannot be tested as extensively as Debian stable, and backports are provided on an as-is basis, with risk of incompatibilities with other components in Debian stable. Use with care!

It is therefore recommended to only select single backported packages that fit your needs, and not use all available backports.

https://backports.debian.org/


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#11 2021-01-10 13:05:48

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
bimon wrote:

Do you mean that it is better to narrow upgrades to backports only for a very few set of packages which are needed very much?

Yes, that is the official recommendation from the Debian developers:

Backports cannot be tested as extensively as Debian stable, and backports are provided on an as-is basis, with risk of incompatibilities with other components in Debian stable. Use with care!

It is therefore recommended to only select single backported packages that fit your needs, and not use all available backports.

https://backports.debian.org/

It is sometimes very difficult to resolve all version conflicts without just dist-upgrade to the very latest including backports which makes the whole process very smooth, and I have never experienced any stability issues related to oldstable distro problems though using all backports too. I agree that it would be nicer to stay at distro level versions where possible to avoid unexpected unnoticed problems from a next version of the distro.

Is there a command which could downgrade or at least indicate a list of all backported packages which could be downgraded to oldstable except a few ones manually choosen and all their required dependents to resolve version mess easier?

Like deborphan --guess-all for finding out unused packages?

Last edited by bimon (2021-01-10 13:13:31)

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#12 2021-01-10 13:29:53

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,269  
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Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

bimon wrote:

I have never experienced any stability issues related to oldstable distro problems though using all backports too.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have been lucky. So far.

bimon wrote:

Is there a command which could downgrade or at least indicate a list of all backported packages

aptitude search '?narrow(?installed, ?archive(ascii-backports))'

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#13 2021-01-10 15:45:13

Magnus
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Registered: 2020-03-14
Posts: 29  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

You use the software packages you need no matter where they come from. Should you encounter problems, you solve them or reset the mess.
A few days ago I had to install libc-2.32 and the dependencies from Ubuntu just to solve dependency problems with the Firefox plugin Scrapbee. It works great.
You do not have to be rigid and obey authorities. It is better and more instructive to test yourself.

But Trinity is a mess. Tested it last summer. When I started up and saw it, it was like coming home. I screamed right out. Good old KDE 3. I've been missing it. But after a few days I discovered that most of it was so outdated (there have been a lot of new standards and the like) that it became problematic to use it. Much more problematic than mixing software packages between different distributions and versions.

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#14 2021-01-10 15:56:24

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,269  
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Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Magnus wrote:

A few days ago I had to install libc-2.32 and the dependencies from Ubuntu just to solve dependency problems with the Firefox plugin Scrapbee. It works great.

Until there is a vulnerability in glibc that will not be corrected on your system because your version is seen as "newer" than the fixed package — that would then expose pretty much every program on your system to the vulnerability.

You also now won't be able to install any packages in Devuan that depend on libc6 <v2.32 and you may experience strange problems because the Devuan packages are expecting a different API version for glibc.


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#15 2021-01-10 17:25:49

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Magnus wrote:

You use the software packages you need no matter where they come from. Should you encounter problems, you solve them or reset the mess.
A few days ago I had to install libc-2.32 and the dependencies from Ubuntu just to solve dependency problems with the Firefox plugin Scrapbee. It works great.
You do not have to be rigid and obey authorities. It is better and more instructive to test yourself.

I prefer to have such things in KVM virtual machines and connect to them via ssh -X, which displays them in Trinity on ASCII.

Magnus wrote:

But Trinity is a mess. Tested it last summer. When I started up and saw it, it was like coming home. I screamed right out. Good old KDE 3. I've been missing it. But after a few days I discovered that most of it was so outdated (there have been a lot of new standards and the like) that it became problematic to use it. Much more problematic than mixing software packages between different distributions and versions.

I have found Trinity the most rock solid reliable DE and still convenient enough at the same time, it looks for me like good old Windows XP I liked so much earlier.
Even Trinity v14.0.6 could display anything I wanted on ASCII and very seldom something from a virtual machine.
It excellently displays Microsoft Office 2010 and other programs from WINE, anything GUI related from Devuan ASCII repo I have ever tried, any Java programs, and I need nothing more.

Can you please indicate what are you missing in Trinity?

As for me I like Trinity on ASCII because I am sure they are so reliably rock solid that I will not stuck with trying to fix many different new things and spend hours/days or even weeks on that what can happen on rolling distros like Arch or even on Devuan testing.
And still ASCII is a very modern OS for me, it has ZFS, security fixes, capable to run anything modern in a KVM VM with Ceres, Arch, GUIX, etc. guests with a narrow subset of specialized software installed on each of them, I almost do not care if anyone from them fails because all of them running from zvols with snapshots.

Until I have created this thread yesterday I even forgot when I had any new unexpected problem with ASCII. But I had to replace KDE by Trinity about a year ago, KDE4 was hardly tolerant (after they changed where settings are kept, in a database instead of files), but KDE5 is a complete mess for me. I am not interested in so rapid progress when they break old things every 3-6 months, I am not a free of charge tester (and not a tester at all) for their DE experiments.

It looks like they do another Windows 10 rebranded as Vulkan+KDE5, if I ever need this mass surveillance probe sometimes for a play, I can temporary start it in a VM on a separated dedicated physical host (like a double or triple condom if someone likes this analogy) to avoid it even run on the same CPU as my valuable data.

Last edited by bimon (2021-01-10 17:54:30)

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#16 2021-01-10 17:51:18

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
bimon wrote:

Is there a command which could downgrade or at least indicate a list of all backported packages

aptitude search '?narrow(?installed, ?archive(ascii-backports))'

Thanks for the suggestion, but it does not display anything to me.

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#17 2021-01-10 18:14:54

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
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Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Ah, sorry, that should be

aptitude search '?narrow(?installed, ?archive(oldstable-backports))'

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#18 2021-01-10 19:37:48

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

I guess, almost the same can be achieved by a command like:

dpkg -al | grep "~bpo"

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#19 2021-01-10 19:38:53

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

dpkg -al | grep "~bpo" | wc
466    4805   83673
aptitude search '?narrow(?installed, ?archive(oldstable-backports))' | wc
450    4470   29919

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#20 2021-01-10 19:56:31

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,269  
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Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

bimon wrote:

I guess, almost the same can be achieved by a command like

Yes, I suppose but the aptitude search terms are much more flexible: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apti … 05.en.html

bimon wrote:
dpkg -al | grep "~bpo" | wc

Did you know that grep can count?

dpkg -al | grep -c "~bpo"

I would strongly recommend reverting as many of those backports as possible. In addition to the possible compatibility and reliability issues raised in the backports.debian.org quote you should also consider the fact that backports are drawn from testing and so are not covered by the Security Team and are subject to the mandatory transition delay from unstable — this means that vulnerable packages could be left unfixed for weeks and perhaps indefinitely.

EDIT: I think this will give matching results:

dpkg --list | grep -c '^ii.*~bpo'

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2021-01-10 20:57:15)


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#21 2021-01-11 08:05:27

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

What is the best method to get a list of packages for a downgrade if I have a list of packages those I would like to keep at backports level?

Simple subset subtraction would not work because there are dependencies.

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#22 Yesterday 17:58:44

Magnus
Member
Registered: 2020-03-14
Posts: 29  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Until there is a vulnerability in glibc that will not be corrected on your system because your version is seen as "newer" than the fixed package — that would then expose pretty much every program on your system to the vulnerability.

You also now won't be able to install any packages in Devuan that depend on libc6 <v2.32 and you may experience strange problems because the Devuan packages are expecting a different API version for glibc.

There is so much you "should not do" with Linux but that I do successfully and without problems. Instead of using virtual environments, I run different environments - XFCE 4, Gnome and KDE - on different partitions with but the same / home where the different configuration files coexist. That's not the way to do it, is it? You should not even test if it works, because it is better to believe than to know.

And plugging in individual program files from Arch solved my problem that some programs could not start with Nvidia, Gnome and Wayland. But it did not cause any problems.
Installing libc from Ubuntu solved my problem with a Firefox plugin. But it did not cause any problems.

As for Trinity, I only used it for a few days. It was when I was using Konqueror to surf that I discovered that Konqueror does not support modern web technologies. Also, I had some general issues with making things work.

Right now I'm trying KDE 5 and am very impressed. Now finally all programs look the same whether it is GTK and QT. But I have not managed to get KDE to run on Wayland, yet. But I'm testing and learning... just for fun...





bimon wrote:
Magnus wrote:

You use the software packages you need no matter where they come from. Should you encounter problems, you solve them or reset the mess.
A few days ago I had to install libc-2.32 and the dependencies from Ubuntu just to solve dependency problems with the Firefox plugin Scrapbee. It works great.
You do not have to be rigid and obey authorities. It is better and more instructive to test yourself.

I prefer to have such things in KVM virtual machines and connect to them via ssh -X, which displays them in Trinity on ASCII.

Magnus wrote:

But Trinity is a mess. Tested it last summer. When I started up and saw it, it was like coming home. I screamed right out. Good old KDE 3. I've been missing it. But after a few days I discovered that most of it was so outdated (there have been a lot of new standards and the like) that it became problematic to use it. Much more problematic than mixing software packages between different distributions and versions.

I have found Trinity the most rock solid reliable DE and still convenient enough at the same time, it looks for me like good old Windows XP I liked so much earlier.
Even Trinity v14.0.6 could display anything I wanted on ASCII and very seldom something from a virtual machine.
It excellently displays Microsoft Office 2010 and other programs from WINE, anything GUI related from Devuan ASCII repo I have ever tried, any Java programs, and I need nothing more.

Can you please indicate what are you missing in Trinity?

As for me I like Trinity on ASCII because I am sure they are so reliably rock solid that I will not stuck with trying to fix many different new things and spend hours/days or even weeks on that what can happen on rolling distros like Arch or even on Devuan testing.
And still ASCII is a very modern OS for me, it has ZFS, security fixes, capable to run anything modern in a KVM VM with Ceres, Arch, GUIX, etc. guests with a narrow subset of specialized software installed on each of them, I almost do not care if anyone from them fails because all of them running from zvols with snapshots.

Until I have created this thread yesterday I even forgot when I had any new unexpected problem with ASCII. But I had to replace KDE by Trinity about a year ago, KDE4 was hardly tolerant (after they changed where settings are kept, in a database instead of files), but KDE5 is a complete mess for me. I am not interested in so rapid progress when they break old things every 3-6 months, I am not a free of charge tester (and not a tester at all) for their DE experiments.

It looks like they do another Windows 10 rebranded as Vulkan+KDE5, if I ever need this mass surveillance probe sometimes for a play, I can temporary start it in a VM on a separated dedicated physical host (like a double or triple condom if someone likes this analogy) to avoid it even run on the same CPU as my valuable data.

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#23 Yesterday 18:27:49

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,269  
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Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

bimon wrote:

What is the best method to get a list of packages for a downgrade if I have a list of packages those I would like to keep at backports level?

You could try an emergency downgrade to ASCII then re-install the (limited) packages you want from backports.

The "version collisions" of which you speak are more likely the more backported packages that are installed so trying to install everything you can from backports doesn't make much sense IMO.


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#24 Today 06:37:08

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

The "version collisions" of which you speak are more likely the more backported packages that are installed so trying to install everything you can from backports doesn't make much sense IMO.

When I got a version collision earlier I just installed the same with the option -t=ascii-backports

And finally I ended up with dist-upgrade -t=ascii-backports and almost everything works very well and smooth.

The only problem I get now: Rust 1.41.1+dfsg1-1~deb9u1 is not compatible with my old CPU.

Shell I try to recompile it from sources or use some type of rustup?

Actually I just wanted to play with Rust and could not, I am mainly a DotNet coder, but interested in learning Rust.

Last edited by bimon (Today 06:42:49)

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#25 Today 06:51:05

bimon
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Registered: 2019-09-09
Posts: 119  

Re: How is it possible that Java update breaks Trinity DE?

Magnus wrote:

As for Trinity, I only used it for a few days. It was when I was using Konqueror to surf that I discovered that Konqueror does not support modern web technologies. Also, I had some general issues with making things work.

Trinity is not about getting support for the newest technologies, it is about stability and a lack of at least a part of modern backdoors managed from invisible BIOS trojans which (backdoors) are most likely present in KDE4 and KDE5. Most likely modern KDEs just allow to manage records via network sockets by RPC calls and that is the problem because trojans have access to network interface while it is not easy for them to interact directly via ABI APIs.

It is like a ban of a person on his own PC ("personal computer"), what to say when someone gets banned in a server managed social network if they can ban even Knotes via IntelME like probes most likely even via communication channel in a power line.

It is a big fake that personal computers are personal since there is sometimes too much undesirable activity of some agencies.

My recordings in Trinity Knotes never disappeared while it happened even in the latest version of KDE4 already using database for notes storage on a modern computer with IntelME probes. After replacing KDE4 by Trinity it did not happen anymore and a few months later I also disabled IntelME mei kernel drivers.

There are many opinions of users who loved KDE3, that KDE5 is just a disaster in terms of which road is chosen for its development.

Last edited by bimon (Today 08:02:36)

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