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why or how your experience with 'sddm' became so awful
SDDM is supposed to be able to run wayland-native, using either kwin or weston as the compositor. Neither work, instead locking up the TTY and producing absolutely no clues as to why.
I've already spent many hours (and many blind-reboots) on that and I'd spend more, if it weren't for the ridiculous list of other unaddressed bugs in sddm - frankly the thing appears to be a lost cause at this point... The KDE project seems to agree insofar as forking it so they can ship a reliable (though systemd-dependent) DM for their upcoming (6.8) shift to wayland-only.
force the use of x11
Which is the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve. I've repeated "without an Xserver for the display manager" more than once now, I'm really not sure why people keep suggesting X11-based DMs.
SDDM works fine when running on X, that's not the point, nor the goal.
Removing the launcher for that module was an especially asinine move, in a growing list of asinine moves from KDE of late. The justification apparently being to "get people to report bugs instead of working around them, we'll tell them how to find it if they need it"...
I recommend making a .desktop file / application menu entry for it for the future.
Other "hidden" kde things that may be of interest:
kdebugsettings
kcmshell6 kcm_qtquicksettings
kcmshell6 --list in general
qdbus6 org.kde.KWin /KWin org.kde.KWin.showDebugConsole (kwin debug console)
This is missing in my Devuan/KDE installation. (I assume that it has something to do with not using Systemd.)
It does.
Do Devuan users rely on the Systemctl command to find out which services are running and to turn off undesired background services
No, that's a systemd tool for interacting with systemd. It won't work as expected on Devuan, because (assuming it exists at all) it's just a "shim" translating (a limited subset of) commands to sysvinit equivalents.
Since sysvinit has no notion of "user services" (which KDE uses to manage it's background components when systemd is present), only system services will show up and only root will be able to mess with them.
is there some other method that can be used
For system services:
man init
man service
man insserv
man update-rc.d
For user services:
There are no user services, it's up to you (or KDE's KDED) to manage user-context daemons and all that.
optional KDE Services
e.g.
Application Menu daemon
Are user services and have nothing to do with init or system service managers when not using systemd, they're managed by KDE itself via KDED.
I don't know what version of KDE/Plasma you're running, but if you can't find "Background Services" in KDE's "System Settings"... It's likely because the developers childishly hid it, on account of people disabling kscreen to work around an otherwise crippling bug (aka corrosive but all-too-common "users are idiots, hide all the sharp tools" mentality).
If that's the case, you should be able to launch it manually with kcmshell6 kcm_kded.
Do you actually have a (session) dbus instance running? How was it started?
The trick is that you want one session bus, and everything in your session to be using the same bus address.
So "DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS,unix:path=/run/user/1000/bus" or whatever you are setting the session bus address to needs to be the same as what you passed to dbus-daemon when you started it.
I use OpenRC user services to start (and supervise) dbus-daemon explicitly, so I know that it was launched with '--address ${XDG_RUNTIME_DIR:-"/run/user/$(id -u)"}/bus'. This may not be the case in your setup, which is why I said "Something along the lines of" rather than "copy-paste this".
If you're using dbus-launch, you can a: Manually ensure DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS is already set in the environment dbus-launch runs with (and set the same for anything that needs to connect to it) b: Make sure everything that needs to connect to the session bus inherits dbus-launch's environment (since it will set DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS itself if it is empty) or c: Use dbus-update-activation-environment as EDX-0 described above.
When you launch applications with dbus-launch or dbus-run-session, you often end up creating a new dbus session just for that application - (so it will start, but it won't be able to do IPC with anything else), or in the case of something like hyprland, starting a session but not propagating the bus address to applications started later (usually because something, like a greeter or launcher, is stripping environment). Launching subsequent applications with dbus-run-session risks starting another isolated dbus session, and you end up back in scenario 1.
dbus-run-session is used to start a session bus instance of dbus-daemon from a shell script,
and start a specified program in that session. The dbus-daemon will run for as long as the
program does, after which it will terminate.
...
Another use is to run regression tests and similar things in an isolated D-Bus session, to
avoid either interfering with the "real" D-Bus session or relying on there already being a
D-Bus session active
...
The session bus' address is made available to PROGRAM in the environment variable
DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS.
console-tdm
Interesting, and appears to be pretty much pure shell too...
It'd be more interesting if the github page didn't have dead links to screenshots and unanswered issues dating back to 2021 though. Looks rather dead/abandoned to me, last commit was 7 years ago.
It also doesn't really look like a full display manager, more just a wrapper for startx to select an environment. Unless I'm missing something obvious, I see no login handling functionality at all.
tdm (1) is a console based display manager, presenting the user with a list of
available sessions after login.
tdminit: script executed at login
tdm: session selector after login.
(emphasis mine)
No "started by init", or "handle login" to be found, AFCocaineCT this is really just an app launcher in shell (which I would have written myself already, if that's what I was after), the user selection and login would still be getty.
lxdm or lightdm or slim
Those all run on X, do they not?
without itself requiring an Xserver
The whole point of the exercise is graphical (or at least TUI/menu-driven) login and session selection, while not needing to run an xserver for the DM, which is kinda a prerequisite for the whole (somewhat dubious) "wayland is the future / x11 is deprecated" shtick.
That means either a wayland-native graphical DM that isn't both a memory-hog and a dog to configure, or a console TUI DM that can do the basics like presenting a list of users and sessions, providing power-off / reboot functions, remembering a users last/preferred session, and generally not looking absolutely awful.
Right now my short-list is lemurs or greetd+tuigreet. Both are (unfortunately and loudly) rust, but that's not a complete showstopper. Kinda hoping a not-rust equivalent existed, but so-so.
The Ly display manager
"A lightweight TUI (ncurses-like) display manager for Linux and BSD."
Sounds good on paper, until you realise "ncurses like" means "doesn't actually use ncurses, instead reinvents it in zig". It's not packaged in Debian, and while there are ebuilds for Gentoo, that just makes needing to install the whole zig toolchain for a text box slightly less annoying.
You want me to make you one?
I was getting dangerously close to doing that myself, but between gathering patches from not-dead forks and a couple of my own, I think I might have got tuigreet into a mostly usable state. It's still rust and it's still part of the "1200 crates" ecosystem, which is irritating, but at least that's a toolchain I already have installed for firefox & co.
Honestly, this is all in service of my biennial "can wayland completely replace X yet / can you comfortably run a desktop system without an xserver installed" investigation.
The answer is still "not really" (unless it's GNOME, maybe). ![]()
* Can launch both X and wayland sessions (primarily plasma, with options for e.g. icewm or FVWM on X11), without itself requiring an Xserver (wayland-native GUI or console TUI is fine).
* Provides menus (again, GUI or TUI is fine) for username and session type / command.
* Isn't abandoned/dormant/full of never fixed bugs and unmerged pull requests (tuigreet, sddm).
* Exhibits reliable, repeatable, deterministic behaviour when launched from either/both sysvinit and openrc (sddm).
* Does not, under any circumstances, crash and leave my TTY in an unusable state (again, sddm).
* Doesn't entail writing wrapper scripts, manually setting common environment variables, or more hand-configuration than some entire operating systems (most of greetd & co).
* Isn't written in zig, go, rust, or some other trendy "modern" language that requires 900MB of tooling and 1200 "crates" to build a text-box.
* Isn't GTK4.
About the closest I can find is lidm, I mean I have no idea if it'll be rewritten from-scratch next month like everything else, but at least it's not written in zig...
Anything else?
So, uhh, export the correct bus address? There are about 50 ways to set an environment variable system(or session)-wide.
Something along the lines of:
$ cat /etc/profile.d/zz-env-hacks.sh
#!/bin/sh
if [ -z "$DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS" ]; then
export DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS="unix:path=${XDG_RUNTIME_DIR:-"/run/user/$(id -u)"}/bus"
fi
if [ -z "$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR" ]; then
export XDG_RUNTIME_DIR="/run/user/$(id -u)"
if [ ! -d "$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR" ]; then
mkdir -p "$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR"
chmod 700 "$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR"
fi
fi(or the relevant part thereof) will probably do it, though I don't have a Debian/Devuan install with a GUI to confirm.
Something similar could also go in your users shell profile or some other script that is sourced during hyperland (which I also don't use) startup of course.
Indeed... but you're spoiling my fun ![]()
The list of packages this byzantine "installer" looks for (and tries to install, including tampering with sources.list to add unstable on some distros *barf*) can be found in installer/distros.dat after unpacking the .run file.
However, since it has no explicit entries for any version of "devuan" and the OP didn't bother to tell us which options were passed to the internal install script or provide the output in --debug mode (which likely would have told them exactly what it failed to find and why), I suppose we'll all have to guess.
So much for, and I reiterate with more emphasis:
Do not obtain software from anywhere other than Debian, not even from the software's author, unless you have the skills and the time to solve the resultant problems!
@deepforest If you're going to install software from outside the repos, on a distro that upstream doesn't even claim to support (note Debian being "present in supported distros" does not mean it will detect Devuan successfully), you get to keep all the pieces. Even if you get this to install, it will louse up your system with untracked files in unusual locations, just as the wiki warns.
We might be inclined to help, but if you want to do unsupported, not-recommended, oft-warned-against things to your system, you need to put in more effort than "Why do not want to install" - starting with at least a cursory investigation of how the installer works and gathering useful debug output.
This is not Windows, we do not run executable installers from manufacturer websites. Installing software from the stable repositories is "easy mode", running (or porting from) unstable, building from source, or using third-party scripts is "expert mode" and comes with the expectation that you are able and willing to put energy into solving your own problems.
do not be lazy, run hplip script
Riiight, so, people not wanting to do your homework for you or run unknown install scripts for software they don't need is "lazy"... Guess I'll be "lazy" too then, good luck.
most development packages in debian/devuan end in -dev, not -devel. There are a few libcups*-dev packages. Whoever wrote that script doesn't know that.
foo-devel is a RedHat thing, the script knows nothing about Devuan and it's a near-certainty that it's just misdetecting the distro... Which, again, had deepforest provided the output of hplip-install --debug we would know rather than have to take educated guesses at.
I mean, it took me all of about a minute to extract the install script and see it had a debug flag, surely Mr. "runs unstable and installs things from SourceForge" could have done that too ![]()
*Aside, if anyone is wondering why I'm not spoon-feeding the answer (besides just generally being a bastard OFC), it's right here in the attitude:
do not be lazy...
if you cant answer stop offtopic...
sado-mazo game/toy for geeks/nerds...
unprofessional...
by amators...
Its linux baby, here nothing works good...
Bugs at linux have name - "features"...
HP site refers to this
Do not obtain software from anywhere other than Debian, not even from the software's author, unless you have the skills and the time to solve the resultant problems!
Don't suffer from Shiny New Stuff Syndrome
Over and over again you ignore this advice, then when things inevitably break, you go and post a bunch of off-topic "Linux is buggy" comments in random threads.
If you must have the latest hplip from unofficial sources, either fix the installer or build it from source. The latter might be as easy as a 'uupdate' against the existing Debian/Devuan sources with a new upstream tarball. Whining about things not working when all the documentation warns you about exactly that achieves nothing.
Why lasted hplip installation interrupts at dependencies stage? Devuan here already have most part of needed dependencies but hplip 3.25.8 do not recognize
Why would anyone here know (or care) about some random executable "installer"? As already stated (more than once) the packages in the repos work fine, and that's what people who don't want a broken system use.
If you really want to know, ask whoever provided that .run file - or extract it and look at whatever pre-install checks it's doing yourself, since it's probably just a bunch of shell concatenated with a compressed archive. My bet is that it's looking for Ubuntu package names or specific versions, but that's for you to determine if you insist on installing "fresh" software in weird formats.
thats wayland for ya a broken mess
If you're going to claim this is a bug in or directly caused by wayland, kindly provide your evidence - and file a bug report.
Bear in mind that wayland is a protocol, not a codebase, so unless this is specifically a problem with a wayland specification any such report should be directed to the broken compositor or client application.
cdemu works fine without systemd, it's only needed for dbus activation of the daemon - which you can do any way you would usually start a user daemon.
If the debian package (wherever you got it, since it's not in the stable repos AFAIK) has a depend on systemd, remove it and rebuild the package... Or just install cdemu from source to begin with.
Dell 5820
Doesn't really tell anyone anything... Unless you expect them to go digging through dell's specifications. What sound chipset and codec does it have? Onboard or expansion card? Which driver is in use?
with pulse audio the sound was choppy, I installed pipewire, and ... the sound was choppy.
Try it with neither - i.e. aplay to bare ALSA with no sound server running (ideally a direct hw:<whatever> PCM). That'll rule out most software shenanigans.
I have an ancient Sound Blaster Pro (90's era) I could install?
SBPro was 16bit ISA, and I highly doubt you have a compatible expansion slot.
Would it even effect the bluetooth operation?
The audio hardware in the PC generally isn't involved at all with bluetooth devices, it's the endpoint that does all the stream decoding and D/A conversion. So no, even if bluetooth existed when the SBPro was released, which it didn't.
can`t build nvidia uvm module for kernel 7.0.3
And? You're running unstable with a bleeding-edge kernel and ancient out-of tree proprietary drivers. Did you expect that not to break?
Either patch the nvidia nonsense yourself or wait for Debian to do so. Nvidia probably never will, they're regularly behind on kernel kernel changes with their current driver, let alone one released over six years ago.
Error: eval: unbound variable: (/usr/share/gimp/3.0/scripts/text-circle.scm : 17) symbol-bound?Likely has nothing to do with GIMP not starting, it's an error in a "legacy" script from gimp-data-extras. That package is kinda where unmaintained scripts and plugins go to die, so unless you need that specific script it should be safe to ignore.
Native wayland support in GIMP is pretty new, and I have no idea how well (or at all) it works on Debian/Devuan. I can fairly confidently say it's not a problem with GIMP itself (i.e. works fine on wayland/Gentoo and has since 3.0), but that's not to say the Debian build isn't broken somehow.
this is unfortunately not a satisfactory solution.
Why? GIMP starts fine with XWayland, does it not?
probonopd @gist.github wrote: wrote:(insert usual bullshit, most of it horribly out of date)
As usual, bashing $favourite_punching_bag and reposting the same old page for the 1000th time without even attempting to address the problem at hand does nothing to solve the problem at hand.
Surprised? Not.
by default every application can access input (keylogger risk)
If you have malware running then it already has access to everything in your home directory, including browser storage and login cookies. Keyloggers are the least of your problems. The wayland cultists love to wave this one around since "keylogger" is nice and scary, but really the solution is to simply not run malware, same as it has always been.
Wayland "application isolation" is nice-to-have, but it's not a panacea and it won't save you from any attack currently in the wild.
less code runs with root privileges
Something needs direct access to the graphics and I/O hardware, whether that's the xserver or your compositor (and which of those is "less code") is a matter of taste.
Running the whole xserver as root hasn't been a thing in most distros for a while now (at least not those that use a session-broker/seat-manager), these days it gets access to only the devices it needs - just like a wayland compositor does.
The only "flaw" here is the usual confusion regarding partitions, filesystems, and the x86 boot process.
isohybrid is a hack, and writing an iso image to a USB device does not create a normal partition table - that's the whole point, to be bootable from optical media it needs to look exactly like a CD to the BIOS routines.
CDs don't have partitions or an MBR, the raw iso9660 filesystem starts at sector 17 and the space before that is an "unused" system area to be used by [insert system-specific boot hackery here] - often syslinux and/or a partition table defining an ESP for UEFI in a bootable GNU/Linux image.
Thus what you usually end up with is a disk where the partition table does not reflect reality, intentionally, the first few reserved sectors contain an el-torito CD boosector, an MBR, a GPT, syslinux, or some combination of those, and the whole mess appears to be a simple iso filesystem to anything that doesn't look too hard.
All this will confuse traditional partitioning tools, especially if the device was previously partitioned and whatever you used to write the image didn't remove the existing partition table (and backup), RAID headers, or whatever else was on there.
It's not a "flaw" in parted, iso9660 on anything but optical media was just never supposed to be a thing and the spec for what should be at the start of the disk is intentionally vague.
Ed. Also, this.
Having a bootable iso image and other filesystems on one device simultaneously is even more of a hack, and generally requires installing a (second) bootloader that can chainload an iso9660 [insert system-specific hackery here] boot record or handle loop-mounting the filesystem and locating the kernel image itself... This is why grub-imageboot and ventoy exist, and it's also why they are so complicated and unreliable.
On the OP: Make sure the device is properly clean, first with a (fast) tool like wipefs, and if that doesn't do it, nuke the entire device with a (slow) cp or dd from /dev/zero. Check the latter can write the entire expected size of the device - if it can't then what you have is likely a hardware problem.
As for "takes ~2s", you're probably just seeing write-cache. Try oflag=direct to bypass kernel caches (see dd manpage).
Adjust the mirrors, check the tire pressures, even RTFM on the glossy new screen in the center?
But not "crawl into the footwell and connect the wiring for the radio", which is a far more appropriate analogy for what new users are expected to do to get pipewire working properly.
Every other distro (systemd or otherwise) which ships pipewire also ships an OOB configuration where it just works. No "tinkering", no reading manuals, no scouring forums or writing shell scripts.
Tinkering is fine if you want to customise your install or do something unusual. Pipewire is not unusual. It hasn't been unusual for several years at this point, and literally every other distro has accepted that it's not going away and solutions need to be found to integrate it.
Devuan has, what, grudgingly added a paragraph to the release notes instructing users to go figure it out? Rejected every proposed solution because it's not in upstream Debian? Chased away anybody who would be willing to work on this?
The irony is palpable. Whinging about not enough developers, then running off anyone who looks like they might contribute. Bitching about upstreams not listening to their users, then refusing to include functionality users are asking for. Blaming Debian for any and all bugs and behaving like they're part of some big evil conspiracy, then claiming that "Devuan is just Debian" and stonewalling any remotely proactive discussion with "we'll wait and see what Debian does" or "get package into Debian first".
That's okay golinux, go back to sleep. You weren't doing anything useful around here anyway.
Devuan is Debian without systemd.
Devuan is little more than a shallow Debian "respin" at this point. 99% of packages are pulled straight from Debian, even when that means they're broken or grossly misconfigured by default in a systemd-free environment. Nobody, apparently, cares at all.
Obvious low-hanging-fruit like shipping a simple shell script or running sed against a configuration file go unpicked, and users are left to figure these things out for themselves. Trivial 5-minute bugs go completely unanswered for years on end.
Even the live image, that one configuration among the multitude that should be tested and polished as the flagship and first-impression... is almost always broken on release day.
Perhaps it's time to stop calling this a "Distribution" altogether? Every other systemd-free distro appears to be making progress with systemd alternatives and ensuring packages work and OOTB configurations are functional, Devuan just reheats whatever Debian serves and buries it's proverbial head in the sand.
Perhaps you would like to provide and maintain a better solution for Devuan?
Why? The distro is going nowhere and the discussion channels are administered by arseholes who won't even walk their own passive-aggressive talk. What would be the point?
If you're going to ask a brand-new user, one who came here asking for technical help, to "provide and maintain" a solution, maybe start by showing your solution as inspiration? An example of all the packages you maintain perhaps? No?
I suppose that thing didn't happen before Debian defaulted to systemd
You suppose correctly.
Devuan is not just "Debian without systemd. Full stop."
It's Debian without systemd, with a perpetual list of bugs caused by removing systemd and a pathologically passive attitude to fixing any of them.
a bit condescending
... Is the understatement of the decade when it comes to our dear forum administrator here.
Does KDE even need a sound server?
Not really, though plasma-pa is better integrated than kmix and IIRC the kde-standard metapackage pulls plasma-pa or kmix, with preference to the former.
ALSA not working is likely one of the usual suspects (e.g. muted master PCM or wrong default card), but OP was futzing with pipewire and close to a reasonable solution, so that's what I rolled with. (also an excuse to taunt gotard OFC, no reason to miss one of those)
I'm unable to find any installation of Devuan Excalibur with KDE Plasma DE on which sound works out of the box.
That's because it (still!
) doesn't.
See the release notes and the relevant thread argument.
#!/bin/bash
wireplumber &
pipewire &
pipewire-pulse &
May or may not work, subject to the phase of the moon (service startup is order dependent and 'foo &' doesn't wait). See better solutions further down the aforementioned argument.
where does it comes from
Devuan's stubborn refusal to implement any of the multiple user-service solutions already suggested, or package even a token-effort shell script.
# gparted (gpartedbin:7345): Gtk-WARNING **: 09:37:51.663: cannot open display: #...
$ env | grep -i display DISPLAY=:0.0 $
You ran the first as root and the second as a user, so environment is obviously going to be different. If you want to know why you got "cannot open display:", test under the same conditions you got "cannot open display:".
The command should be whatever XFCE was set to run by default on installation.
Almost certainly an xdg .desktop file dropped by the gparted package (dpkg -L gparted) and looking in it will tell you which command is being called. This is GNU/Linux, there is no "standard" anything and not everyone runs XFCE.
Ed. Anyhow, this is all irrelevant. Your polkit install doesn't work:
$ pkexec --disable-internal-agent '/usr/sbin/gparted' Error executing command as another user: No authentication agent found. $
Do you have an appropriate (GUI) agent installed (e.g. xfce-polkit)?
Package: polkit-1-auth-agent
State: not a real package
Provided by: cinnamon (6.4.10-2), gnome-flashback (3.56.0-1), gnome-shell (48.7-0+deb13u2), lxpolkit (0.5.6-2), lxqt-policykit (2.1.0-1), mate-polkit (1.26.1-4+b1), phosh
(0.46.0-3), polkit-kde-agent-1 (4:6.3.6-1), ukui-polkit (1.2.2.2-1.1+b1), xfce-polkit (0.3+v20220621-3~excalibur1)Also see fsmithred's comment WRT pinentry above.
Maybe (?) all this is happening due to my purging / uninstalling PCManFM and installing Xfe?
The pcmanfm package recommends lxpolkit or polkit-1-auth-agent, xfe does not. If nothing else you have installed depends on polkit-1-auth-agent, it's possible you (auto)removed it.
'gparted' appears (at least on Gentoo, I have no GUI Devuan installs) to be a shell script which ends up calling pkexec --disable-internal-agent '/usr/bin/gparted' if pkexec is available.
See if that command works in a terminal emulator as your normal (non root) user, and what output it produces.