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2019-09-05
03:41:24 <minnesotags> I'm trying to install stupid notepadqq from their add-repository packages, but it flakes out because "not debian". How do I fake it out?
03:43:50 <gnarface> minnesotags: it's probably a bad idea. don't they have a source archive you can compile?
03:44:11 <gnarface> you can easily make simple packages from a source archive with checkinstall
03:47:50 <fsmithred> ID=debian in /etc/os-release
03:48:08 <fsmithred> will probably work. It seems to be fooling grub.
03:56:58 <minnesotags> I suppose I need to learn to compile shit eventually....
04:12:59 <gnarface> minnesotags: most stuff is pretty easy to compile. it is a good way to gauge the quality of the software, actually.
04:13:40 <gnarface> (Xorg and the kernel being historic exceptions to that rule, Wine, however, is not)
04:27:58 <furrywolf> by far the worst thing to compile that I've ever found is python.
04:28:28 <furrywolf> wine is easy!
04:33:35 <gnarface> eh, not as easy if you're trying to build the dual-arch 32bit+64bit wine
04:33:41 <gnarface> not on debian anyway
04:34:01 <gnarface> because a bunch of the dependencies aren't multi-arch safe yet
04:34:33 <gnarface> still possible, just complicated
04:34:46 <gnarface> a lot more complicated than just doing ./configure && make && checkinstall make install
04:42:10 <furrywolf> I compiled multi-arch debian wine on this box. the only hard part was... python. heh.
04:43:28 <furrywolf> note, I compiled unstable's source packages, which may be a lot easier than upstream's source.
04:45:30 <gnarface> eh, maybe you got lucky and tried it when it worked
04:45:35 <gnarface> or i'm talking about an entirely different wine version
04:45:41 <gnarface> one that there aren't src packages for
04:46:05 <gnarface> at this point i think wine 1.6 is actually pretty well hammered down
04:46:17 <gnarface> but things get sketchier when you're trying to play WoW :-p
04:46:54 <furrywolf> wine-4.0 (Debian 4.0-2~bpo9+1)
04:47:26 <furrywolf> hrmm, looks like I actually put the backports version on this box.
04:47:30 <furrywolf> I may have my boxes confused.
04:49:10 <furrywolf> ohh, I remember, on this one I wasted a whole bunch of time compiling gtk:i386, because of python.
04:49:10 <gnarface> oh that's right, wine stable is up to 4.0 now, i remember. i had forgotten that
04:49:28 <gnarface> wine-development and wine-staging are different creatures though
04:50:13 <furrywolf> I compiled gtk myself to get recent bug fixes, but that meant when I went to install the bpo wine, I also had to build gtk for i386...
04:50:57 <furrywolf> and building gtk (for any arch) is a nightmare because of python.
05:05:42 <systemdlete> almost have the laptop installed now. It asks me which kernel to install -- recommendations?
05:06:28 <systemdlete> (defaults to inux-image-amd64)
05:06:44 <systemdlete> should I take the default? Is there any real difference?
05:06:49 <furrywolf> should be good
05:07:24 <systemdlete> ok, thx
05:09:28 <gnarface> systemdlete: "linux-image-amd64" is the meta-package that will ensure the kernel keeps getting updated along with all the rest of the system updates, so that is probably the one you usually want
05:09:36 <systemdlete> I hope something can be done for future releases wrt the installer: My laptop comes up in portrait mode rather than the expected landscape (because it IS a tablet after all). There should be an option. I tried various combinations of grub boot options, with no luck.
05:09:44 <systemdlete> thanks gnarface
05:10:16 <gnarface> systemdlete: portrait mode in the gui, or also before Xorg starts?
05:10:36 <systemdlete> during install
05:11:32 <gnarface> during install even
05:11:42 <gnarface> hmmm, well ... there might be a way to fudge it
05:11:44 <systemdlete> yes. Haven't gotten far enough to tell you more
05:12:07 <gnarface> some video drivers do support screen rotation natively, and you could define that in a xorg.conf snippet
05:12:42 <systemdlete> xorg.conf is way ahead of the game
05:12:48 <systemdlete> this is during install
05:12:52 <gnarface> and if the text console is supported by modesetting aka "kms" then i know you can set resolution for that in grub, so maybe it supports screen rotation too, but i don't know for sure, you'd have to consult the docs
05:13:03 <systemdlete> I'm sure there is a way to fix it after the system is up and running on its own.
05:13:47 <gnarface> for the installer itself, i think your only options is kernel command-line parameters but none come to mind. you honestly might just have to tough it out through the installer
05:14:53 <systemdlete> well then, I guess I am getting really good at toughing it out
05:16:07 <systemdlete> uh-oh. I forgot about this part... where it asks which packages
05:16:54 <systemdlete> I had serious problems last time with this step. If I pick the defaults here, will I get a working X11 with Xfce? Or do I have to select xfce (which says it is default)
05:17:09 <gnarface> systemdlete: don't select anything. install what you want after
05:17:16 <systemdlete> good idea!
05:17:30 <gnarface> systemdlete: it doesn't actually specify that, but "nothing" is a perfectly acceptable choice
05:17:44 <gnarface> "standard system utils" probably never hurt anyone though
05:17:48 <systemdlete> specify what?
05:17:58 <gnarface> it doesn't tell you that you can pick nothing
05:18:10 <systemdlete> oh.
05:18:11 <gnarface> it sorta infers you have to choose SOME of those checkboxes, and i think even checks some for you
05:18:13 <systemdlete> gotcha
05:18:16 <gnarface> but you can actually just uncheck all of them
05:18:26 <gnarface> you should still get a bootable system
05:18:37 <systemdlete> is that damage from debian, or new damage from us?
05:18:46 <gnarface> it has always been that way
05:18:47 <systemdlete> (the installer clumsiness)
05:18:52 <systemdlete> so it is debian then
05:19:15 <gnarface> this is the new and heavily improved, super user-friendly overhaul of their notoriously difficult installer
05:19:29 <gnarface> you should have seen it back in the potato days :-p
05:20:02 <gnarface> you get used to it though
05:20:13 <gnarface> in expert mode, it has usefulness that other installers lack
05:20:43 <systemdlete> this install is going better than I figured... after several false starts due to how this machine boots up under linux
05:21:17 <systemdlete> didn't get that i8402 error again, but I did have a hang when it was detecting the emmc card... twice.
05:21:35 <systemdlete> but several reboots, prayers, and rain dances seems to have worked.
05:22:08 <systemdlete> now if it will just complete the installation without incident... and make the laptop boot into linux, I'll be content.
05:22:41 <systemdlete> I'll be able to use linux on my new laptop convertible tablet while watching tv in my recliner. Like the old fart I am quickly becoming.
05:23:56 <gnarface> systemdlete: cheers to that
05:24:06 <gnarface> systemdlete: a newer kernel may help the eMMC stability problems.
05:24:29 <systemdlete> yeah, but sadly, that seems to be an after-install task.
05:24:36 <gnarface> that's fine
05:24:49 <gnarface> it just has to complete the install and boot first
05:24:58 <systemdlete> so I have to put up with these stability issues during the install process.
05:25:06 <systemdlete> (right, right...)
05:25:21 <gnarface> well, just for now. the next release's installer will undoubtedly fix at least that problem
05:25:26 <gnarface> because it was already fixed in the kernel upstream
05:25:32 <gnarface> (i assume, anyway)
05:25:42 <systemdlete> emmc problem?
05:26:19 <gnarface> i've been hanging out in some ARM device channels, and yea i think i remember hearing them talking about fixing multiple eMMC stability problems and throughput speed issues (also applying to USB stuff) *after* kernel 4.9 which is in ascii
05:26:42 <gnarface> so in theory all you should need is to grab the backport kernel once your install completes
05:26:45 <systemdlete> this IS ascii i'm installing btw
05:27:05 <gnarface> ascii-backports i think has 4.19 or later now
05:27:12 <gnarface> which is much more current
05:27:21 <systemdlete> I thought 4.19 was not stable...
05:28:02 <systemdlete> (trying to recall where I heard that uttered. Was either here or over in #adelie...)
05:28:49 <gnarface> well i think 5.2 is out and it's not stable either
05:28:50 <gnarface> so ymmv
05:29:08 <gnarface> it might not necessarily mean unstable for everyone
05:29:13 <systemdlete> well, if this system (laptop) is stable after install, I might leave well enough alone
05:29:21 <gnarface> that wouldn't be a bad idea
05:29:34 <gnarface> after all, the installer could be using a kernel even older than 4.9 for all i know
05:30:01 <systemdlete> in any event, I will look at 4.19 and see what it has to offer. My only worry is that it might brick my laptop somehow (unlikely, but these cheap imports are not exactly robust)
05:30:37 <systemdlete> 4.9.0-6 (from console)
05:33:45 <systemdlete> it's eating grubs now... (almost done)
05:34:08 <furrywolf> 4.14 here, seems to work fine..
05:35:11 <systemdlete> efi shadow copy or no?
05:35:18 <systemdlete> the default is "no"
05:35:25 <systemdlete> but this IS an efi laptop
05:35:55 <systemdlete> and it's a 32 bit EFI on a 64 bit laptop
05:36:11 <systemdlete> ???
05:37:53 <systemdlete> adelie channel people told me they had never tried an install to this mixed platform
05:38:25 <systemdlete> they seemed to be concerned that it might not work. On the other hand, my adelie usb stick did boot the laptop, so there must be some hope there
05:38:59 <systemdlete> also, this is a eMMC drive, not SSD. I undestand that eMMC is not as sturdy as SSD
05:40:20 <systemdlete> I think I'll take the option (not default) here
05:40:32 <systemdlete> see what happens. ::EYEROLL::
05:42:53 <systemdlete> furrywolf: What kind of hw are you running there? My laptop is brand new, it's a ASUS transformer (T101A), it has a eMMC card, something called an i8402 that sometimes causes hangs, and on and on.
05:43:05 <systemdlete> but it's nice to know it works, at least nominally
05:44:00 <systemdlete> who-hoo! booted to login prompt
05:44:09 <systemdlete> all sideways...
05:44:12 <golinux> Congrats!
05:45:17 <furrywolf> systemdlete: toughbook cf-52 with i5-540m
05:47:07 <furrywolf> it's not brand new, but it's not ancient
05:48:55 <systemdlete> rotated the screen, but now seems all locked up
05:51:04 <systemdlete> well I can still get a console
05:52:25 <systemdlete> after reboot and logging in again, the display is landscape and whatever rebooting did, seems to have fixed the weirdness
05:56:17 <furrywolf> "fixed". :P
05:57:43 <gnarface> systemdlete: so you're at a text prompt with no gui?
05:57:58 <systemdlete> no, I have xfce
05:58:05 <systemdlete> no worries
05:58:12 <gnarface> alright, so you got it?
05:58:12 <systemdlete> can't get online though
05:58:25 <systemdlete> I used wireless during install
05:58:36 <systemdlete> and it still sees my home wifi
05:58:38 <gnarface> open /etc/network/interfaces in a text editor
05:58:49 <systemdlete> yeah, was getting ready to do that next
05:58:54 <systemdlete> what
05:59:06 <gnarface> did you get the full dvd set?
05:59:20 <gnarface> the non net-installer?
05:59:30 <gnarface> at least the first CD or DVD?
05:59:35 <systemdlete> I did a net-install
05:59:58 <gnarface> eh, i'm confused now
06:00:39 <gnarface> you ended up without a gui network config tool in xfce?
06:00:52 <furrywolf> yes. ascii does that.
06:01:02 <gnarface> that's not the part i'm confused about
06:01:17 <gnarface> i'm trying to figure out how he got xfce without a net connection
06:01:31 <furrywolf> I've mentioned at least a dozen times, roughly correlated to how many times I've installed it, that the installer reallllly needs to copy over the installer wifi config to the install.
06:02:13 <gnarface> hmmm, i thought it did...
06:02:17 <systemdlete> I did a net-install, as I said above, and I used wireless during install, as I said above
06:02:26 <furrywolf> the installer has wifi. it doesn't transfer over the settings to the installed system. and unless you select the right tasks, no wifi manager gets installer. have to manually set up wpa_supplicant if so, and it's a fucking pain in the ass.
06:03:29 <furrywolf> systemdlete: so you didn't get wicd?
06:04:17 <systemdlete> wicd is there. Otherwise, how could the desktop network widget list all the network SSIDs?
06:04:32 <furrywolf> oh, I mis-understood the problem.
06:04:37 <furrywolf> nevermine.
06:04:40 <furrywolf> nevermind.
06:04:53 <systemdlete> I said above, it still sees my home wifi
06:05:05 <furrywolf> you must have installed some of the task packages. :)
06:05:09 <systemdlete> (sorry maybe I type TOO MUCH...)
06:05:40 <systemdlete> what is supposed to happen when I select one of the networks listed?
06:05:42 <gnarface> i thought the problem was that it's set to the WRONG wifi and you had done a bare-bones install and were just missing some packages
06:06:16 <systemdlete> isn't it supposed to pop a dialog to enter my pass phrase?
06:06:34 <systemdlete> or am I missing something as furrywolf suggested a bit?
06:06:44 <furrywolf> if you select a network, click connect, enter a passphrase (can be non-obvious, make sure you have the right type selected), and connect again, it should connect...
06:07:12 <furrywolf> no, you should have all you need. I thought you ended up with the same problem I get too often with ending up with nothing other than wpa_supplicant installed.
06:08:59 <systemdlete> if I RIGHT click the widget, I can see the networks. Selecting one won't work... but if I LEFT click the widget, I get a UI and I can configure my network here
06:09:44 <systemdlete> so now I am ONLINE folks!!!
06:10:04 <systemdlete> So now it is time for some fun
06:10:13 <gnarface> hooraay!
06:10:25 <systemdlete> like... separating the keyboard
06:10:47 <systemdlete> hoohoohahahahah! bwahhahahahhah!
06:10:53 <gnarface> i would recommend doing a full update if you haven't already, and then making a backup, first
06:11:00 <gnarface> that's what i'd recommend
06:11:25 <gnarface> maybe stopping to upgrade the kernel if it crashes during that
06:11:36 <gnarface> to the ascii-backport kernel
06:11:42 <furrywolf> netinst should end up with current packages
06:12:04 <systemdlete> except for the kernel though?
06:12:43 <gnarface> everything depends on if it as unstable as it was in the installer
06:12:45 <systemdlete> well, that behaved well. I separated the keyboard, the mouse pointer still responded to my finger but there is no way to actually key anything in
06:13:04 <gnarface> mabye it already has the fixes in the current kernel
06:13:08 <gnarface> they've patched it a bunch of times
06:15:07 <systemdlete> I can already see I am going to need a hub
06:16:26 <furrywolf> I don't know if xfce is intended for touch-centric devices...
06:16:57 <systemdlete> it works, furrywolf
06:17:43 <systemdlete> well, some touches work
06:18:14 <systemdlete> during install, I noticed that touch worked in the full graphical install version
06:18:45 <furrywolf> I mean, things like popping up an onscreen keyboard when appropriate, pinch zoom, and other things than basic pointing.
06:18:46 <systemdlete> does ascii use wayland?
06:19:17 <systemdlete> so do I need synaptics driver?
06:19:33 <gnarface> you might want it if it can support your touch pad
06:19:50 <gnarface> i mean probably will want it
06:19:58 <systemdlete> (I want to enable double-tap as left click and maybe other useful things)
06:20:31 <gnarface> sounds like that's what you want then
06:20:41 <gnarface> there's only really that one
06:20:46 <gnarface> and the various mouse drivers
06:21:07 <onefang> Is this a touch screen, or a touch pad?
06:21:40 <gnarface> good question
06:22:23 <gnarface> i assumed the device has both
06:22:41 <gnarface> i don't know if synaptics would handle a touchscreen
06:22:45 <onefang> I was using a touch screen based computer for a while, it worked no matter what operating system I used. Much to the surprise of the manager that was looking over my shoulder while we worked on a document together. She kept touching the screen to point out something while I was typing, and I kept having to undo all my letters being scattered at random spots in the document.
06:23:31 <systemdlete> it has a touch pad and the screen is a touch screen
06:23:43 <systemdlete> this is state-of-the-art junk from China here!
06:23:52 <systemdlete> most of it seems to work
06:24:15 <systemdlete> $300 + $60 spills and chills + $40 tax
06:24:23 <systemdlete> about $400 in the hole with this
06:24:23 <gnarface> did you install lm-sensors ?
06:24:23 <furrywolf> one of my toughbooks has a touchscreen... I never use it.
06:24:34 <systemdlete> not yet, good idea thanks gnarface
06:25:01 <systemdlete> furrywolf is that because YOU are so tough? Afraid you'd break it?
06:25:03 <systemdlete> heheheh
06:25:30 <systemdlete> (I picture large, strong hands and fingers on the 'wolf)
06:25:33 <furrywolf> heh. I have personally jumped on top of a toughbook without damaging it. :)
06:25:50 <furrywolf> I just don't see the point to waving my whole arm around awkwardly to do simple things.
06:25:52 <systemdlete> I think cheap junk from china deserves that
06:28:48 <systemdlete> I've rebooted about 3x now and it comes up faithfully. Unfortunately, the greeter (dm) is sideways, but the desktop is landscape
06:29:35 <onefang> So just login before you get out of bed, problem solved. B-)
06:30:27 <systemdlete> it's surprisingly quick rebooting
06:33:28 <systemdlete> onefang: LOL
06:33:36 <systemdlete> keep it bedside huh?
06:33:58 <systemdlete> double tap works with the synaptics driver
07:00:40 <systemdlete> gnarface: poor touch screen support so far
07:02:12 <systemdlete> I'll hack at this later... I've been sitting here for hours and haven't moved
07:02:16 <systemdlete> bbl
07:02:41 <systemdlete> (and thanks for everyone's help or hilarity, as they both made it easier and fun)
07:03:10 <furrywolf> I wish I could go to bed.
07:03:26 <furrywolf> I'm not allowed to sleep until my pot grower neighbors pass out drunk and thus stop making loud noises.
12:01:56 <systemdlete> anyone know why apt autoremove wants to remove something like 200 packages all of a sudden? The list keeps getting longer every time, and includes packages like wicd and openoffice which I need!
12:03:07 <onefang> Where they manually selected, or did they get included as suggestions / recommendations?
12:03:30 <systemdlete> they were automatically included, but I need them!
12:03:40 <systemdlete> (well, most of them anyway)
12:03:47 <onefang> Manually select the top level ones you need.
12:04:14 <systemdlete> How do I "select" them? I'm not too ept on apt
12:04:30 <onefang> Usually I do that with synaptic.
12:05:42 <systemdlete> that's what I figured, but was not sure. thanks
12:06:13 <onefang> Where you highlight the package, go to the Package menu, turn off Automatically installed.
12:06:40 <systemdlete> actually, I selected the defaults in the install -- I didn't touch anything, just agreed to the suggested configuration of packages and hit continue
12:07:27 <systemdlete> to my own way of thinking, anything that was selected there should have been considered manually selected. But that's just me.
12:14:19 <onefang> One last thought before I eat dinner - my guess is that the apt solution is - apt install package. It'll tell you it's already installed, but may mark it as something you actually asked for, rather than something that came along for the ride.
12:16:38 <systemdlete> Oh, I understand that. What I don't get is why all these packages which were installed as part of my "selections" during the system installation are now considered not manually selected.
12:17:32 <systemdlete> tbh, I have never fully understood the deb/apt philosophy. Redhat's RPM solution, along with yum, just seem much clearer (though it has its weirdness too, admittedly)
12:22:29 <systemdlete> thanks again, enjoy dinner
12:54:03 <xrogaan> systemdlete: aptitude unmarkauto [packages]
12:54:20 <xrogaan> or apt-mark
12:54:59 <xrogaan> apt-mark allows you to list manual/auto and mark them as manual or auto
12:55:28 <systemdlete> ok, thanks. I'll try that
12:56:25 <xrogaan> you still need to know the name of the packages you want to keep
12:56:39 <systemdlete> well, for the most part I do
12:56:49 <systemdlete> I've narrowed down the list significantly so far
12:57:16 <systemdlete> is this typical after a new install ?
12:57:28 <systemdlete> I'd think people would have been going nuts by now.
12:57:49 <xrogaan> I have a file named /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/05disable-suggests that contains `APT::Install-Suggests "0";'
12:57:50 <systemdlete> how is this normally handled (presumably by people who know debian well)?
12:57:58 <xrogaan> so that apt doesn't automatically install suggested packages.
12:58:18 <systemdlete> how do you do that at system install time?
12:58:38 <onefang> I'm guessing at some point you installed a task-* package (task-desktop?), then removed it.
12:58:52 <xrogaan> and a `APT::Install-Recommends "false";' too
12:58:53 <systemdlete> I dont' think so.
12:59:04 <systemdlete> the only task package I removed is lightdm
12:59:31 <systemdlete> well, actually, I just removed lightdm
12:59:38 <systemdlete> not a task
12:59:38 <xrogaan> check the /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ directory and see if the recommends and suggests install are turned off
12:59:52 <spoonovitch> i like to use "apt-mark showauto" and "apt-mark showmanual" to sort this kind of mess
12:59:55 <systemdlete> I don't mind the suggests and recommends.
13:00:38 <systemdlete> In fact, I find it useful. The point is just that I figure any packages selected (even by default) at system install time would be marked as manual.
13:00:41 <systemdlete> no?
13:00:55 <hightower3> systemdlete, if you want to reduce the amount of installed packages, install and run 'debfoster'
13:01:18 <systemdlete> just the opposite -- trying NOT to remove packages!
13:01:25 <hightower3> so where's the issue then :)
13:01:50 <hightower3> ah you wanted to run 'autoremove' and not remove packages that you use?
13:01:54 <systemdlete> hightower3: apt autoremove is giving me a long list of packages, many of which are critical (like wicd, without which I cannot operate)
13:02:02 <systemdlete> right
13:02:52 <hightower3> that's a good question... usually when I see it happen, I just manually do apt install <name> for a couple of largest/biggest packages, who then in turn keep installed everything else.
13:02:53 <hightower3> Or...
13:03:12 <hightower3> I never tried it, but I guess that when you installed packages during install, you selected "tasks" (packages which depend on other packages)
13:03:24 <hightower3> if for some reason your selections weren't marked as manual,
13:03:29 <hightower3> just do apt install <task name>
13:03:34 <hightower3> like someone above mentioned
13:03:50 <systemdlete> Actually, I didn't really "select" ANYTHING -- I just took the suggested configuration as it was, making no adjustments.
13:03:58 <xrogaan> you can force the recommends using aptitude: aptitude install -r package
13:04:11 <hightower3> yes, well, it installed some "tasks" which in turn depend on all other packages they installed (that's how they got installed in the first place)
13:04:29 <onefang> The suggested configuration was stuff like - desktop, server, web server, ...?
13:04:30 <xrogaan> or is it aptitude -r intall?
13:04:36 <hightower3> yes, those are tasks
13:04:53 <hightower3> tasks packages
13:04:54 <systemdlete> right. But for an initial install, the system installer should assume I mean make all the installed packages marked manual
13:05:02 <onefang> The point I was about to make.
13:05:06 <hightower3> yes I understand
13:05:17 <hightower3> I am simply telling that maybe you don't need to now mark all those packages as manual
13:05:20 <systemdlete> but, noooo... it does NOT work that way
13:05:21 <hightower3> but only the tasks packages
13:05:38 <systemdlete> ok, will try that
13:05:57 <hightower3> I don't remember offhand how they're called, someone above hinted at the name
13:06:03 <systemdlete> (which should have been done FOR ME when I did the system install... sheesh)
13:06:10 <fsmithred> if it's a new install, there shouldn't be anything on the autoremove list
13:06:18 <fsmithred> unless you removed something
13:06:25 <systemdlete> fsmithred; YAY! Yes, I agree.
13:06:35 <systemdlete> So why did autoremoves suddenly appear?
13:06:38 <xrogaan> btw, is it alright to upgrade from ascii to beowulf?
13:06:54 <fsmithred> xrogaan, depends on what you've got installed
13:06:56 <xrogaan> aren't the existing issues with migration or new install?
13:06:57 <systemdlete> xrogaan: I did that in a VM
13:07:16 <systemdlete> (but that was months ago)
13:07:27 <fsmithred> I've upgraded refracta (ascii, xfce, no metapackages) very easily to beowulf
13:07:28 <xrogaan> fsmithred: is it? Do you have a list of known issue somewhere? Maybe the forum...
13:07:50 <systemdlete> fsmithred: I have not removed anything so far.
13:07:54 <fsmithred> there's no list of issues
13:08:19 <fsmithred> there are a few discussions about upgrades to beowulf on the forum, some are old and obsolete.
13:08:22 <xrogaan> I believe I have some meta packages, how do we list them?
13:08:55 <fsmithred> I don't know a way to show just the metapackages
13:09:11 <fsmithred> possibly: dpkg -l |grep metapackage
13:09:14 <xrogaan> it's the task- things right?
13:09:21 <onefang> The sudden list af autoremove is due to you removing ... something ... that removed the package/s that suggested or recommended the things you wanted to keep.
13:09:25 <fsmithred> yeah, that will find the worst ones
13:09:36 <onefang> You said you removed lightdm.
13:09:39 <fsmithred> but most of the desktops have their own metapackages
13:10:13 <fsmithred> task-*-desktop all depend on some display manager
13:10:40 <fsmithred> if you try to remove the dm, it breaks the task package and wants to remove the whole desktop
13:11:07 <xrogaan> I don't believe I have task-xfce-desktop, just task-desktop
13:11:15 <fsmithred> not sure, but maybe 'apt install lightdm && apt remove lightdm' would fix it
13:11:25 <xrogaan> because I use lightdm with xfce.
13:11:40 <hightower3> ah yes
13:11:45 <hightower3> he might have uninstalled some package
13:11:48 <hightower3> this also uninstalled task
13:11:57 <hightower3> then all other packages remained with no dependant on them
13:12:03 * xrogaan is going to grab an iso just in case
13:12:21 <fsmithred> systemdlete, without the task packages, the installer would need over 1000 checkboxes
13:13:43 <fsmithred> if you're coming from suse or redhat, you might expect the installer to look and work more like synaptic
13:14:02 <fsmithred> but it's not.
13:14:55 <onefang> Even synaptic can turn off suggests and recommends auto inclusion.
13:15:05 <onefang> That's the way i run it. B-)
13:15:51 <systemdlete> fsmithred: It should be easy for the installer to mark all the dependent packages of the task packages as manual
13:16:20 <systemdlete> it's an automation step, that's all
13:16:42 <fsmithred> I guess someone decided they shouldn't do that, and there's a way to do it afterward if you need it.
13:17:17 <fsmithred> Most people who want a more customized installation un-check everything (or almost everything) at the tasksel screen.
13:17:24 <systemdlete> as far as the dm, I am only removed lightdm, which I had installed and decided I didn't want
13:17:24 <fsmithred> Then add what you want after reboot.
13:17:35 <fsmithred> that's all it takes
13:18:13 <fsmithred> the task- package requires lightdm. Without it, you can't have the task- package.
13:18:40 <fsmithred> ...unless you mark it as manually installed first
13:18:53 <systemdlete> ok, so that's how MOST people do it. You see, I had gotten bitten at that step a whiles back when installing to a different system (I think it was my testbox) and wanted to avoid the trouble. (I forget what it was that went wrong, but I think it stalled the whole process of system installation)
13:19:10 <systemdlete> So I decided to just accept the whole slew as is.
13:20:37 <fsmithred> so try manually installing and uninstalling it.
13:20:56 <systemdlete> so I just re-installed lightdm
13:21:15 <fsmithred> which desktop do you have?
13:21:16 <systemdlete> (I thought the system came with another dm besides lightdm)
13:21:19 <systemdlete> xfce4
13:21:22 <systemdlete> and the others
13:21:27 <systemdlete> mate, cinnamon, etc
13:21:29 <fsmithred> slim is default for xfce
13:21:41 <fsmithred> this is ascii or beowulf?
13:21:56 <systemdlete> ascii
13:22:12 <fsmithred> xfce was not the first one?
13:22:15 <systemdlete> I just barely got ascii installed on this laptop
13:22:24 <systemdlete> yes, it was, and it was the "default"
13:22:53 <fsmithred> so slim must have been replaced when you added another (cinnamon?)
13:23:11 <systemdlete> no, I manually installed lightdm myself actually
13:23:26 <fsmithred> oh, so then that shouldn't be the cause of all the autoremoves
13:23:33 <systemdlete> exactly.
13:24:05 <fsmithred> and btw, you may run into other conflicts because the different desktops use different policykit libs.
13:24:06 <systemdlete> I think xrogaan's explanation pretty much clears it up
13:25:09 <systemdlete> IIRC, fsmithred, the problem was that when I tried to choose just, say, xfce or maybe a few others as well, the installer croaked
13:25:15 <systemdlete> or got very angry at me
13:25:57 <systemdlete> I got caught in a loop where I pretty much had to accept ALL the packages, as is. I think it did let me drop ssh or something
13:26:06 <fsmithred> you chose multiple desktops during the instal?
13:26:07 <systemdlete> but it was very strict
13:26:26 <systemdlete> multiple but not all, and again, this was months ago for a different install.
13:26:46 <fsmithred> well, let's stick to talking about this install
13:27:18 <systemdlete> ok, but my point is that I wanted to avoid all the fuss. So I just took the defaults, which gave me a gob of software and a lot of desktops
13:27:28 <systemdlete> which is fine. I have plenty of disk space for them
13:27:56 <fsmithred> used to be that you could install all the desktops you want. That's not the case in devuan.
13:28:23 <systemdlete> "used to be?" Like back in potato days?
13:29:29 <fsmithred> no, like up until jessie
13:29:34 <systemdlete> ah, I see.
13:29:42 <fsmithred> not sure, but maybe you still can do it in debian
13:30:05 <systemdlete> well anyway, I am manually reinstalling what I want in the autoremove list
13:30:11 <fsmithred> see the section on session management and policykit backends: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt
13:30:13 <systemdlete> but there are a lot of libraries also
13:30:25 <systemdlete> (ok, will do, thanks)
13:30:42 <fsmithred> the libraries should come in automatically if you install anything that uses them
13:30:53 <systemdlete> should... ok
13:30:57 <systemdlete> sounds good to me
13:31:22 <systemdlete> push comes to shove, I can just reinstall the laptop from scratch, take the 1st attempt as a trial run
13:31:52 <systemdlete> It was a pain due to the hw issues with the eMMC (a known issue per numerous internet posts)
13:32:05 <systemdlete> it's very intermittent
13:32:18 <fsmithred> oh, I hate intermittent problems
13:32:21 <systemdlete> me too
13:32:59 <systemdlete> there ought to be a law. Bugs should be well-behaved. None of these "heisenbugs" where the bug disappears when you go looking for it in a debugger.
13:33:47 <systemdlete> If your gonna write vexing bugs, at least be respectful to the people who have to de-bug them!
13:34:04 <systemdlete> we need some order in disorder, really.
13:37:59 <fsmithred> I agree
13:44:00 <systemdlete> ok, I cleared all that out. What I did is copy-pasted the list into a vi buffer in bash and arranged to apt install all of them.
13:44:10 <systemdlete> so now I don't get any more lip from apt
13:45:57 <systemdlete> I've never used xfinitywifi on a tablet before (I've used it on my android phone though)
13:46:38 <systemdlete> it works OK, after I figured out which mode to use to connect. But I have to log in to their network every single time I start a session.
13:46:57 <systemdlete> this is bothersome. A security step I suppose, but still pretty annoying.
13:47:31 <systemdlete> there is no Internet service until I pull up a browser and log in --> the browser prompts me to do that.
13:47:32 <fsmithred> does your xfinity keep track of when you open doors in your home?
13:48:01 <systemdlete> I don't have xfinity home. In fact, I don't even have their gateway. I am using a surfboard modem.
13:48:09 <systemdlete> I own it.
13:48:53 <fsmithred> I'm confused. Where does xfinity come into it?
13:49:07 <systemdlete> I save $10 a month on comcast's already overpriced 60mbps service by not renting their gateway.
13:49:37 <fsmithred> oh, spectrum only charges $5/month to rent a router
13:49:45 <systemdlete> I subscribe to xfinity's HSI service; xfinitywifi hotspots are free with the subscription.
13:49:49 <fsmithred> ok, we're drifting OT
13:49:56 <systemdlete> anyway...
13:49:58 <fsmithred> ah, ok
13:50:12 <systemdlete> so why not take advantage of it. I just didn't realize it would be a pain.
13:50:49 <systemdlete> I guess I could use my phone as a hotspot and connect to that instead. The phone is already all set for xfinititywifi hotspots
13:51:02 <systemdlete> I always take my phone with me.
13:51:14 <systemdlete> OT, indeed. sorry.
13:51:57 <systemdlete> well, off to test cinnamon -- supposedly it supports touch screen. We'll see.
17:23:00 <james1138> Question about Devuan. I see "Epiphany-browser" installed. When I try to remove/purge - it automatically wants to install Firefox-ESR. Is there anyway to dump Epiphany??
17:33:32 <Death_Syn> sounds like a metapackage is requiring something that provides a web browser
17:35:37 <james1138> Never mind. I think I did it via terminal - thanx anyway.
17:50:11 <fsmithred> g4570n, do I know you? Your name looks familar.
18:01:21 <g4570n> fsmithred: I do not think so, I participate here, in the list and I participated in some corrections in the translation of the documentation in Spanish of devuan
18:02:42 <fsmithred> ok, thanks. I'm probably thinking of a similar name I saw.
18:03:01 <fsmithred> you're not aitor, right?
18:03:08 <onefang> All 4570's look the same to me.
18:07:18 <g4570n> fsmithred: no, I'm not aitor 😆 He used to come to # Devuan-MX too, and I haven't seen him participate in the mailing list for a while.
18:09:56 <g4570n> I know I was focused on the development of simple-netaid
18:11:55 <g4570n> I know he was focused on the development of simple-netaid* sorry my \bad english
18:17:00 <fsmithred> his website is down and he hasn't posted on dng for a few weeks
18:17:23 <fsmithred> and his email is gnuinos.org, so that doesn't work, either.
18:21:48 <g4570n> it may be that he is away from home for summer vacations
18:48:29 <james1138> Hello from Indiana/USA. General question about Devuan and mail clients. Besides Evolution, Claws Mail and Thunderbird - are there any other email clients that have calendar and RSS feed support??
18:50:34 <sixwheeledbeast> Is there a reason to bundle three features into one program?
18:54:45 <Wonka> well, receiving invitations to appointments by mail and adding those to the calendar from the mail client can be seen as useful
18:55:05 <Wonka> haven't used RSS feeds much, yet
19:01:41 <sixwheeledbeast> Do one thing and do it well?
19:09:44 <james1138> Sorry for the delay. Evolution does it ok. But since the upgrade of Evolution mail client - the RSS plugin crashes when I do a "global send & receive". If I update email accounts by themselves - no problem. If I update individual RSS feeds no problem.. If I up
19:10:24 <james1138> Google search says it is a bug - so I was looking for alternatives to Evolution.
19:16:40 <_abc_> Erm there's a nasty exim exploit out, gives remote root. Patch or disable exim asap.
19:16:51 <hightower3> lol exim again
19:16:56 <_abc_> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/06/exim_vulnerability_patch/
19:17:45 <james1138> _abc: will update/upgrade exim help?
19:17:46 <_abc_> It really tries hard to catch up with Outlook servers in features. It's a very nice email server but I'd like to see it simple not complex.
19:18:05 <hightower3> hm hm, more problems on ppc64le with policykit. Now doesn't want to install xfce4 due to libpolkit-gobject-1-0
19:18:07 <_abc_> james1138: I don't know. The devuan archives may not have the patched package yet.
19:18:44 <_abc_> james1138: check you have exim version 4.92.2 or later, then you are safe.
19:19:35 <james1138> I just looked - 4.92.8 - I should be okay
19:20:20 <sixwheeledbeast> I use Liferea for RSS myself.
19:20:50 <hightower3> what's a good alternative for a mail server that's not exim nor postfix?
19:22:47 <furrywolf> sendmail. :)
19:23:15 <unixman_home> +1
19:23:25 <james1138> sixwheeledbeast... thanx for the tip. If I must - I sooner just go to Thunderbird and install Lighting and RSS plugins instead of completely to separate apps.
19:24:27 <sixwheeledbeast> I still prefer the do one thing well approach to programs but ok
19:24:46 <hightower3> looks like there is courier
19:26:25 <james1138> To my thinking... fewer separate apps mean fewer total dependencies - equals less complexity and fewer demands on system hardware.
19:34:32 <sixwheeledbeast> It's not that simple tho, would vary depending on which you use.
19:36:05 * _abc_ would have voted for postfix but it has been like 17 years since I last touched that.
19:36:09 <james1138> I looked at Claws Mail - OMG! All the extras that a person need install just to come close to Thunderbird or Evolution - even before considering calendar and RSS support!!
19:36:28 <_abc_> james1138: does it have massage support? If no, meh.
19:37:09 <james1138> "massage support" - where is that app?! Sold! <grin>
19:38:08 <_abc_> Boobies on the box are good for sales. Every high performance gear maker knows this.
19:38:48 <golinux> Ahem . . . please stay on topic
19:39:25 <james1138> sorry
19:46:04 <fsmithred> I don't think that comment was meant for you, james1138
20:09:00 <onefang> On my Devuan server I use Courier, coz it does cover all of the email server types. On my Devuan desktop I use Claws-Mail, but some day I'll test out the text console based email clients and switch to one. I have already switched RSS from Claws-Mail to Liferea
20:13:38 <enyc> onefang: i have an ongoing old courier arrangement!
20:13:58 <enyc> onefang: I think there are some snags that need fixing in debian courier package, default key sizes oforl ssl or other such annoying niggles
20:14:11 <enyc> onefang: but, it largely behaves!
20:14:41 <enyc> onefang: some like 'mutt' with lots of customization
20:14:55 <onefang> I've been using it since before I switched to Devuan.
20:15:11 <enyc> onefang: with the 'maildir patch', re-alpine can be useful, in that it can directly read the courier Maildir , without needing the imapd overhead or re-entering password.
20:15:29 <onefang> Mutt is on my list to check out. I just have to either get the time to get around to it, or get more annoyed at Claw--Mail. lol
20:16:07 <onefang> So is re-alpine.
20:16:21 <onefang> But for now, it's 3AM. I should sleep.
20:16:28 <enyc> onefang: i may tnot be abroun much/ocnsistently but happy to compare notes on alpine config
20:17:05 <fsmithred> is alpine a descendant of pine?
20:17:20 <enyc> fsmithred: yes, changed to apache-license
20:17:33 <onefang> I think it's pine -> alpine -> re-alpine.
20:17:41 <fsmithred> makes sense
20:18:20 * onefang heads to bed.
20:18:20 <enyc> fsmithred: unfortunately, lots of useful alpine patches, provided by Eduardo Chappa , hasn't/won't/etc release under apache license, and so aren't in debian package
20:19:05 <fsmithred> too bad
20:22:32 <_abc_> alpine is/was under some University license, no?
20:22:54 <_abc_> alpine is the descendent of pine, a rewrite by the same people iirc. re-alpine may not be
20:23:15 <_abc_> I used pine for email client for about 10 years 1990s-200s
20:24:16 <_abc_> pine is probably a great example for why one should not use an ascii menu program for complex things. At the end the config screens were interminable and the probability to get everything right tended towards zero.
20:25:17 <_abc_> I did not get to use re-alipine
20:25:49 <enyc> _abc_: pine was uni license whatnot, alpine is when it became apache-license
20:25:59 <enyc> transpires, re-alpine died, and debian package follows alpine ;p
20:26:10 <_abc_> uwa.edu for pine and alpine, then forked on sourceforge in 2009 as re-alpine
20:26:31 <enyc> http://alpine.x10host.com/alpine/ as the patches e.g. bmaildir, that work ontop of debian package, have rebuilt with maildir for example.
20:27:12 <_abc_> http://alpine.x10host.com/alpine/ does not contain the word 'license'
21:09:37 <MinceR> inb4 someone forks re-alpine and calls it unre-alpine
21:12:00 <_abc_> At this point the best way to improve re(n)-alpine in my opinion is to simply rewrite it from scratch in the spirit of old old alpine, which was simple and easy to set up and hda a small options screen (relatively speaking)
21:12:28 <_abc_> Perhaps someone nostalgic for the old times will do it.
21:13:09 <_abc_> I never understood why these programs were ever ported to windows. Who would use alpine on windows?
21:14:36 <_abc_> And I confused uw.edu with uwa.edu. Old pine was created at uw.edu and had a suitable license from them. I believe they used it on their own campus etc.
21:18:05 <_abc_> It's still alive just hard to find, the original project: https://www.washington.edu/imap/
21:25:08 <golinux> _abc_: #debianfork is for non-Devuan support related chat. ;)
22:24:32 <_abc_> well said golinux
23:42:53 <james1138> General Devuan question. Any suggestions for a "startup disk creator" for USB?? I do not see UNetbootin or anything like that in the repos so far.
23:47:00 <gnarface> james1138: you don't need unetbootin anymore. most machines made after about 2006 should be capable of booting a USB key as a regular harddrive, so you can literally just install to USB now with the normal installer and then boot from it
23:47:43 <james1138> Sorry gnarface: I meant make my own USB boot from ISO.
23:48:10 <gnarface> there are devuan live images available too though if you want something a little more static
23:48:57 <gnarface> i'm not sure what you mean by making USB boot from ISO... you can do that with something like the grub boot iso and chainload to USB , but like i said it should not be necessary anymore
23:49:36 <gnarface> the existing devuan iso images are all iso-hybrid, which means they'll work on optical or USB
23:49:49 <gnarface> (or anything really - but remember, BIOS support required)
23:50:20 <james1138> Humm I thought to copy a ISO to usb to make it into a boot disk required something like unetbootin
23:50:57 <gnarface> for the old basic ISOs that was true. someone came up with a new trick
23:51:07 <gnarface> several years ago now actually i think
23:51:20 <gnarface> they call it "iso-hybrid"
23:51:32 <gnarface> but pretty much all linux distros' ISO images default to that setup now
23:52:10 <gnarface> basically just dd the ISO to a USB key and try it
23:52:17 <gnarface> it should work
23:53:01 <gnarface> the newest machine i've got that can't do this is a pentium II
23:53:39 <gnarface> (its BIOS only supports USB keys formatted as floppy disks)
23:54:26 <gnarface> unetbootin should ostensibly still work but it hasn't gotten any easier to use or any better supported since it is basically not needed anymore except for really legacy hardware
23:56:25 <james1138> Ahh okay... one of the reasons I ask is that when I tried unbootin - it was going to also install syslinux and syslinux-common and I did not know if that was good ot bad.
23:57:01 <gnarface> you don't need any of that shit now
23:57:28 <gnarface> just dd and some patience
23:59:51 <james1138> what is "dd" is that a command or an actual application?
---------- 2019-09-06 ----------
00:00:55 <gnarface> i don't see a meaningful distinction between those two terms but i assume you mean to ask whether it is a graphical application or a console application. it is a console application.
00:01:07 <gnarface> but it is really easy to use
00:01:14 <gnarface> dd if=[input file] of=[output file]
00:01:24 <james1138> ahh ok
00:01:53 <gnarface> just be really careful you don't accidentally put the wrong thing for output file
00:02:01 <gnarface> there is no safety
00:02:09 <gnarface> it will overwrite anything you point it at without hesitation
00:02:13 <gnarface> including physical hardware
00:03:05 <gnarface> so [input file] would be the ISO here, and [output file] would be the /dev/whatever file that represents the physical disk (USB key or harddrive, it doesn't care) you are trying to write to
00:03:25 <gnarface> and it won't hesitate to overwrite your install if you point it at the wrong disk
00:03:34 <gnarface> so you know, make sure you double check and don't point it at your face :)
00:08:53 <james1138> Playing a "little" safe - found a GUI front-end for DD to help reduce my making MAJOR problems... https://helpdeskgeek.com/linux-tips/use-the-linux-‘dd’-command-with-a-simple-gui/
00:09:35 <specing> just read its manpage and you'll be safe
00:12:56 <fsmithred> anything between me and dd sounds scary
00:13:06 <fsmithred> I want to see it with my own eyes
00:13:18 <fsmithred> usually after I see the output of dmesg
00:16:04 <golinux> Even I can dd (with sweaty palms though)
00:17:48 <james1138> golinux: I am not as good or as surefooted as you are around stuff like dd.... ;D
00:18:15 <golinux> Do not make assumptions. ;)
00:20:59 <fsmithred> LOL!
01:10:29 <drawkula> overwriting the wrong partitions or drives with a clicky coloured tool would not feel better than making mistakes with dd
01:13:26 <golinux> Even as clicky-loving as I am, I wouldn't do that either
02:06:46 * drawkula still gets adrenaline tsunamis from dd-ing to partitions or disks...
02:07:54 * golinux gets sweaty palms and palpitations
02:08:54 <drawkula> for critical commands there is only one way to do them...
02:09:10 <drawkula> look at them long enough before hitting enter...
02:09:49 <drawkula> maybe start typing those lines with a # to avoid accidentally launching them
02:10:33 <golinux> Triple check over several hours
02:10:55 <drawkula> some really focussed minutes should do...
02:11:15 <golinux> Sometimes I unplug unmounted drives
02:11:26 <golinux> I am old and move slowly
02:11:28 <specing> use the links in /dev/disk/by-id, not /dev/sd* directly
02:12:16 <drawkula> comparing /proc/partitions to the expected drive/parition size can give hints...
02:13:11 <drawkula> i often sit too long in front of screens ... overtired ... hit shappens! bit i try my best to minimise it
02:49:14 <rdav> drawkula: do a "tail -f /var/log/messages" and pop the disk out and then back in and you will see the correct /dev/sdX the kernel has given
02:51:20 <drawkula> nah... usb plugs are to *hity
02:51:35 <rdav> also can use the bash auto-complete to check out the devs that are available for dd to use ie "dd if=foo of=/dev/sd[leave this blank]" and hit tab to see the /dev/sdX available
02:52:02 <rdav> I use hotplug sata in a box for this
02:52:02 <drawkula> heyyy... I'm using unix for +7- 3 decades now
02:52:25 <drawkula> 7 -> / (shitty shift key)
02:52:40 * drawkula ____( Trust me, I know what I'm doing. )
02:52:44 <rdav> hmm my first unix was in .... 1980?
02:53:07 <rdav> I know the feeling after dd wrong disk some yrs back
02:53:27 <rdav> so I take these extra steps to double check
02:55:58 <drawkula> dd HAS to feel dangerous... that's a security feature1
2019-09-06
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