apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

igorzwx · 2025-09-12 15:27:20

apt is said to be designed as a more interactive and user-friendly frontend to certain utilities such as apt-get, apt-cache, etc.

$ apt-file list apt | grep usr/bin
apt: /usr/bin/apt
apt: /usr/bin/apt-cache
apt: /usr/bin/apt-cdrom
apt: /usr/bin/apt-config
apt: /usr/bin/apt-get
apt: /usr/bin/apt-key
apt: /usr/bin/apt-mark

apt is optimized for interactive use, with user-friendly output and features.
In contrast, apt-get has a well-defined, stable interface, making it more suitable for scripting and automated tasks.
apt is essentially a wrapper for the most common functionalities found in the underlying APT system.

Last edited by igorzwx (2025-09-12 15:27:54)

rolfie · 2025-09-12 15:32:12

apt has a progress bar. Perfect for me, I am using apt since many years now, no complaints about it.

igorzwx · 2025-09-12 16:00:35

If you know what it really is, you can decide how to use it.
However, the users are not supposed to know what they are using.

rolfie · 2025-09-12 16:46:34

Why not? If you desire have a look at the code. The sources are available.

pcalvert · 2025-09-12 17:19:03

The only apt command I use is apt update. For almost everything else I use aptitude.

igorzwx · 2025-09-12 18:19:33

@rolfie

Could you please read the code and enlighten us?

rolfie · 2025-09-12 19:00:19

Another conspiracy theory about something being bad?

igorzwx wrote:

Could you please read the code and enlighten us?

I am no programmer. Do it yourself.

igorzwx · 2025-09-12 19:34:25

apt has undocumented options, for example: depends; build-dep; -s, --simulate

man apt | grep depends

$ apt depends wxmaxima
wxmaxima
  Depends: libc6 (>= 2.34)
  Depends: libgcc-s1 (>= 3.3.1)
  Depends: libstdc++6 (>= 11)
  Depends: libwxbase3.2-1 (>= 3.2.2+dfsg)
  Depends: libwxgtk-webview3.2-1 (>= 3.2.2+dfsg)
  Depends: libwxgtk3.2-1 (>= 3.2.1+dfsg-2)
  Recommends: maxima
    maxima-git
  Recommends: fonts-inter
  Recommends: fonts-inter-variable
  Recommends: fonts-texgyre
  Recommends: fonts-texgyre-math
  Recommends: fonts-dejavu
  Suggests: fonts-jsmath
  Suggests: texlive-latex-extra
  Suggests: ibus-gtk3

man apt | grep build-dep

$ apt build-dep wxmaxima -s
NOTE: This is only a simulation!
      apt needs root privileges for real execution.
      Keep also in mind that locking is deactivated,
      so don't depend on the relevance to the real current situation!
Reading package lists... Done
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
...

There are, perhaps, other "secret" options.

Last edited by igorzwx (2025-09-12 21:02:54)

EDX-0 · 2025-09-12 21:07:51

apt is a "work in progress" interactive tool, it has undocumented options (if you don't read the manual) since they may not be tested enough to have full documentation, for example for apt 2.9.6devuan1

       edit-sources (work-in-progress)
           edit-sources lets you edit your sources.list(5) files in your preferred text editor
           while also providing basic sanity checks.

       showsrc, depends, rdepends, policy (summarised in apt-cache(8))

       source, build-dep, download, changelog, clean, distclean, autoclean (summarised in apt-
       get(8))

SCRIPT USAGE AND DIFFERENCES FROM OTHER APT TOOLS
       The apt(8) commandline is designed as an end-user tool and it may change behavior between
       versions. While it tries not to break backward compatibility this is not guaranteed either
       if a change seems beneficial for interactive use.

       All features of apt(8) are available in dedicated APT tools like apt-get(8) and apt-cache(8)
       as well.  apt(8) just changes the default value of some options (see apt.conf(5) and
       specifically the Binary scope). So you should prefer using these commands (potentially with
       some additional options enabled) in your scripts as they keep backward compatibility as much
       as possible.

SEE ALSO
       apt-get(8), apt-cache(8), sources.list(5), apt.conf(5), apt-config(8), apt-patterns(7), The
       APT User's guide in /usr/share/doc/apt-doc/, apt_preferences(5), the APT Howto.

igorzwx · 2025-09-12 21:30:26

I have Devuan5

$ inxi -b | grep Host -A1
  Host: devuan Kernel: 6.1.0-39-amd64 arch: x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: MATE
    v: 1.26.0 Distro: Devuan GNU/Linux 5 (daedalus)

$ man apt | grep devuan1
APT 2.6.1devuan1         05 April 2020             APT(8)

It seems that "man" is "outdated in-progress".

$ apt --version
apt 2.6.1devuan1 (amd64)

man apt | grep depends

does not print anythings.

$ apt rdepends wxmaxima
wxmaxima
Reverse Depends:
  Suggests: education-mathematics
  Recommends: science-mathematics

The command:

man apt | grep rdepends

prints nothing.

apt is "work in progress", and, therefore,

apt full-upgrade

is recommended to use instead of

apt-get dist-upgrade

_https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/upgrading.html#upgrading-the-system
4.4.6. Upgrading the system
# apt full-upgrade

Linux Mint has own apt wrapper

_https://github.com/linuxmint/mintsystem/blob/master/usr/local/bin/apt

This is the Linux Mint "apt" command.

This commands acts as a wrapper for the APT package manager and many other useful tools such as apt-get, apt-cache, apt-mark, dpkg, aptitude...etc.

It is installed in /usr/local/bin/apt. To use the upstream apt command directly type /usr/bin/apt.

Last edited by igorzwx (Yesterday 00:16:36)

EDX-0 · Yesterday 02:53:23

yes, i've been thinking of rolling out my own apt wrapper, after all i already have apt-ui which uses fzf to provide a fuzzy ui for installing, uninstalling packages and also queriying package information: https://github.com/eylles/devuan-script … /apt-ui.sh

but i do want something more "complete" that also integrates some of the apt-fast capabilities which i may even lazy out and just build my apt wrapper with the ability to use apt-fast to perform the install operations.

that is not to say that debian's "apt" wrapper program is bad in on itself but one can notice it is very much a work in progress

igorzwx · Yesterday 14:14:39

Do you know why cybernetics has always been hated by Trotskyists and pseudo-Buddhists?

According to cybernetics, the control mechanism must possess sufficient complexity to match or exceed the complexity (or "variety") of the system and its environment to maintain control and achieve desired outcomes. If the controller is less complex, it cannot effectively manage the system's dynamics, according to Ashby's Law of Requisite Variety
_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics)

For a similar reason, a sophisticated system requires much more sophisticated technical documentation. That is why, perhaps, Debian documentation is a body of esoteric scriptures containing secret or inner knowledge intended for a select group of initiates, rather than the general public. Debian wiki and man pages have multiple layers of meaning that can only be grasped by the initiated who can read between the lines and understand the hidden or implicit meaning in something that is not explicitly stated.

systemd, pulseaudio, pipewire, user-friendly frontends (such as apt and the like) are unnecessarily (or even harmful) complications of the system.

Have you noticed that it is much easier to create a Debian package without the help of debhelper?
Examples:
_https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=7214
_https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=7224
Try to read _https://manpages.debian.org/testing/debhelper/debhelper.7.en.html

The question is, therefore, What does the word "helper" mean in this context?

The Hebrew word "ezer" (עֵזֶר - pronounced "ayzer") means a strong, powerful helper, an ally, a protector, or even a rescuer, not a weak or subordinate one. Often translated as "help" or "helper," it implies a necessary, superior aid. The word emphasizes strength and support and is most frequently used in the Bible to describe God as the ultimate ezer for humanity.

It is a symbolic statement of superiority. Debian users are treated as helpless and ignorant.

Man's achievements rest upon the use of symbols.... we must consider ourselves as a symbolic, semantic class of life, and those who rule the symbols, rule us.
Alfred Korzybski, Science and Sanity. 1933; Lancaster (Penn.) 1941.
See also: _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski#Anecdotes

It might be obvious that power operates through symbols, meanings, and social constructs to influence and shape reality. What is not obvious is that it can effectively operate through seemingly neutral symbols and shared understandings. Pierre Bourdieu argued that symbolic power, exercised through language and culture, allows dominant groups to legitimize their authority by imposing meanings and classifications that are perceived as natural and legitimate by society, a process he termed symbolic violence. Language serves as a primary vehicle for this power, as dominant linguistic norms, accents, and styles are presented as legitimate, thereby reinforcing social hierarchies and marginalizing other forms of speech and culture. This power operates not through physical coercion but by shaping people's perceptions and behaviors, leading to the misrecognition and internalisation of existing power structures as normal or just.
_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu

Last edited by igorzwx (Today 00:45:07)

greenjeans · Yesterday 18:32:47

yes, i've been thinking of rolling out my own apt wrapper, after all i already have apt-ui which uses fzf to provide a fuzzy ui for installing, uninstalling packages and also queriying package information: https://github.com/eylles/devuan-script … /apt-ui.sh

The comments! # if this is not your actual config dir then get rekt

Srsly tho, this put a bee in my bonnet on a small utility i've thought about in the past, a right-click context menu entry that offers to install a local .deb package when you select it in the file manager, little script + apt-get + some yad dialogs. I think that would be handy.

Probably easier to just use gdebi, it's nice.

Last edited by greenjeans (Yesterday 19:14:01)

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#1 2025-09-12 15:27:20

apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#2 2025-09-12 15:32:12

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#3 2025-09-12 16:00:35

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#4 2025-09-12 16:46:34

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#5 2025-09-12 17:19:03

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#6 2025-09-12 18:19:33

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#7 2025-09-12 19:00:19

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#8 2025-09-12 19:34:25

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#9 2025-09-12 21:07:51

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#10 2025-09-12 21:30:26

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#11 Yesterday 02:53:23

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#12 Yesterday 14:14:39

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

#13 Yesterday 18:32:47

Re: apt seems to be a sort of "unstable wrapper"

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