Something I realized,

zapper · 2024-09-05 04:30:31

It turns out, that using blobs when you don't need to might have merit.

I will admit, I always wondered why people did this when they didn't have to.

For example AMD graphics doesn't need a blob apparently.

But if you do gaming, battle.net type stuff which I have been doing on a separate computer devoted to it.

Aka, that comp is specifically used for gaming.

I apologize if I was ignorant before.

I believe I have been humbled on this matter.

I got a framework laptop you see and it doesn't work well for gaming without the amd display driver blob for graphics.

JWM-Kit · 2024-09-05 14:04:36

OK! Who are you and what did you with the the real zapper. LOL

Seriously though, You have a good point. It's next to impossible to have an absolute stance on libre software and have a full functioning machine. To much hardware depends on blobs. The best you can do is minimize the usage of blobs, and try to use hardware that does not depend on them.

Not to mention being force to compromise on these issues when collaborating with others. For example, on a recent project I've been force to use systemd. Yuch!

Last edited by JWM-Kit (2024-09-05 14:06:45)

quickfur · 2024-09-05 14:53:25

If I were forced to use systemd in a collaborative project, I'd probably put it in a QEMU sandbox and blast it to smithereens afterwards.

blackhole · 2024-09-05 15:19:15

I posted about firmware more than a few times and of the blobs misnomer and fallacious argument, at this site and elsewhere:

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=30672#p30672

The bottom line is that loadable device firmware is a problem created by the hardware vendor - and the root of the problem is there and not in any Linux distribution or BSD OS' decision whether or not to include them / means of distributing them.

In simple terms there is firmware which is loaded on a device, flashed to it's EEPROM and there are those devices which don't have an EEPROM to start with, where the firmware is loaded onto the device (usually via some functionality of the Windows driver).

For the device to be usable under Linux or e.g. OpenBSD, a similar mechanism is needed (a "firmware loader") to load the firmware onto the device, in order to start the device and use it.

So the choice is not a choice of "blobs or no blobs", it boils down to a choice of hardware. i.e. don't buy it if you're that concerned.

If you already own the hardware which requires the loadable firmware... and want to use the device (rather than dispose of it), then you will have to install and load the firmware.

Many of your other devices, such as hard disk controllers, CPU, ethernet controllers, already have this proprietary firmware running regardless - as it's already flashed onto the device. So to be "blob free", you would have to remove this, assuming that were even possible in every case, as well and end up with bricked and useless hardware (but blob free at least). This is why, in my view, the "blobs" argument is a fallacious one, which addresses the wrong issue. The real issue is one of "open hardware". Yes you have a variety of FOSS operating system choices, but the primary target platform is one dominated and controlled by Microsoft and OEMs who are in a secret deal with them. The platform contains what I regards as malicious surveillance oriented firmware, such as the Intel Management Engine - an autonomous subsystem with out of band network access, which is always running even if the system is powered down, but still connected. This "blob" is the elephant in the living room - loadable device firmware is just a pointless distraction, or virtue signalling for those obsessed with Stallmanist compliance.

It's worth noting that the firmware image, is not a Linux or even a Windows binary - it's binary code designed to run on the device itself. Hence you can't execute these firmware images and if you had several hundred of them in /lib/firmware but own none of the relevant hardware - those files will sit there just taking up space and will never be executed.

Last edited by blackhole (2024-09-05 15:49:07)

alexkemp · 2024-09-06 12:28:18

There is one small extra to blackhole's excellent analysis which most folks do not realise (I am going to take the example of modem hard/firm-ware, since that is the one that I'm most familiar with):

It is little realised that most modern standalone hardware is actually a dedicated computer, in the literal sense. When it is powered up it boots up, usually into a variety of Linux. The classic example of this in the modern era is Smartphones, of course, but a perfectly astonishing amount of standalone hardware is a Linux computer under the bonnet. Usually dedicated to a specialised & limited purpose, but a computer nevertheless.

The picture in the previous paragraph began to be extensively modified for computer-connected hardware beginning about the 1980s, & that developed rapidly as computer CPUs + GPUs began to develop some serious horsepower. Computer hardware peripheral manufacturers realised that they could offload the processing performed by some of the most expensive sub-components in their peripherals onto the host computer. That process was manna from heaven for Microsoft, because it allowed MS to lock-in those devices to the MS OS. And thus the Blob was born. A BLOB which was MS-specific in it's early days, and often still is.

MS fully understands that Linux is it's main rival, is shit-scared at it's own impending doom, and does everything that it can to kill it's rival.

To try to give a little bit of current trivia that casts a light on this subject, have a look at this sentence from the utf8 wiki:

utf-8 wiki wrote:

UTF-8 is the dominant encoding for the World Wide Web (and internet technologies), accounting for 98.3% of all web pages, 99.1% of the top 100,000 pages, and up to 100% for many languages, as of 2024. Virtually all countries and languages have 95% or more use of UTF-8 encodings on the web.

To get the point of this bit of info you need the following extra information:

utf-8: default lang encoding for Linux OS
utf-16: default lang encoding for Windows OS

Precisely who is winning all the arguments? To date, that has been MS, but only according to MS. The evidence says otherwise.

zapper · 2024-09-07 01:14:40

@JWM_KIT sadly, I have had to realize much of what has been said below your comment.

So much hardware needs blobs.

I look forward though to ditching the UEFI bios that framework laptops have once they supported coreboot though.

But yeah, if you into gaming, the best way in my opinion to proceed is to keep only what you need on the gaming computer.

Files you want kept hidden, including ideas your working on that you could make money on, etc...

KEEP OFF the gaming computer!

Because UEFI is... sketchy.

Whether AMD's PSP is as bad as intel me, idk.

This being said, there is someone who decompiled PSP on github. of AMD and they seem to say it has no network stack.

I dunno if this is a good enough reason to use it or not, but it gives me some hope for future.

@alexkemp

Btw, didn't know utf-16 was only used by windows, or that utf-8 is used by 98%+ of the web. Interesting stuff

@Blackhole

Sometimes ignorance prevents us, or people I should say from seeing the truth.

I still recommend keeping any computer with blobs on it from having your more important files though.

delgado · 2024-09-07 23:08:15

Part of the problem is, how modern IC's / micro controllers are working: The binary blob (or firmware or driver) defines its function. Even IO-pins can be re-routed to be (e.g.) an analog input or digital output. Input signals are digitized as early as possible and the output is calculated.

"classic" electronic components are fixed in function and layout. This made it possible to guess the function of a circuit board by it's components. Or reverse engineer it. That is impossible today.

zapper · 2024-10-05 05:15:56

@delgado maybe blobs was the wrong word, what I should have said, is privacy invasive blobs.

Like anything that is a blob that has a network stack that can send stuff where you don't want it.

An example of this for many is, intel me enabled fully in most intel devices.

If you have such a situation, keep important files off of that!

That would be my reply.

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#1 2024-09-05 04:30:31

Something I realized,

#2 2024-09-05 14:04:36

Re: Something I realized,

#3 2024-09-05 14:53:25

Re: Something I realized,

#4 2024-09-05 15:19:15

Re: Something I realized,

#5 2024-09-06 12:28:18

Re: Something I realized,

#6 2024-09-07 01:14:40

Re: Something I realized,

#7 2024-09-07 23:08:15

Re: Something I realized,

#8 2024-10-05 05:15:56

Re: Something I realized,

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