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#1 2021-01-19 15:39:09

dice
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Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 222  
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stable vs bleeding edge

I have some old hardware i use on a daily basis with devuan, lately ive found that if i use anything bleeding edge like archlinux, voidlinux, artixlinux, i will get complete lockups/freezes but using devuan stable, debian stable my old machine runs fine. I cant figure this out. I have been running the backported 5.9 kernel for a few days with no issues, yet if i run archlinux linux-lts or even in voidlinux the 4.19 kernel it will just lockup/freeze unable ssh or get a tty. Might be time to update but as long as devuan still works i dont see a reason too, im hoping when chimeara becomes stable i wont have these issues and can run the computer for another few years.

Last edited by dice (2021-01-19 15:40:58)


“That which is below is like that which is above, and that which is above is like that which is below, to perform the miracles of one only thing.”

-Hermes Trismegistos

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#2 2021-01-19 16:21:59

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,365  
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Re: stable vs bleeding edge

Yeah, kernel regressions are unfortunately common in Linux. The developers are too busy cramming in new features so old hardware support can suffer. You should probably file a bug report with the kernel developers because they can't fix it if they don't know about it and you won't be able to keep using old kernels indefinitely.

https://xkcd.com/2224/


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#3 2021-01-20 03:09:11

dice
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Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 222  
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Re: stable vs bleeding edge

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Yeah, kernel regressions are unfortunately common in Linux. The developers are too busy cramming in new features so old hardware support can suffer. You should probably file a bug report with the kernel developers because they can't fix it if they don't know about it and you won't be able to keep using old kernels indefinitely.

https://xkcd.com/2224/

True but id like to know how to debug it first. Ive tried seeing if i can catch dmesg output for when it freezes with dmeshg-wH but when it freezes nothing is caught in in dmesg or any error logs. What would you recommend doing?


“That which is below is like that which is above, and that which is above is like that which is below, to perform the miracles of one only thing.”

-Hermes Trismegistos

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#4 2021-01-20 14:43:13

Ogis1975
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Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 151  
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Re: stable vs bleeding edge

dice wrote:

What would you recommend doing?

The kernel probably did log some information, but they never made it on time to the disk. If your laptop has got a serial port, set the kernel to use it as console (add console=ttyS[X] as boot option); you will see the messages there from another machine as it happens. If not, you can use an Ethernet port and try netconsole.


MyLiveMatter

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#5 2021-01-20 16:33:00

dice
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Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 222  
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Re: stable vs bleeding edge

Ogis1975 wrote:
dice wrote:

What would you recommend doing?

The kernel probably did log some information, but they never made it on time to the disk. If your laptop has got a serial port, set the kernel to use it as console (add console=ttyS[X] as boot option); you will see the messages there from another machine as it happens. If not, you can use an Ethernet port and try netconsole.

Good idea!


“That which is below is like that which is above, and that which is above is like that which is below, to perform the miracles of one only thing.”

-Hermes Trismegistos

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#6 2021-01-21 13:01:08

zapper
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Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 221  

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

dice wrote:

I have some old hardware i use on a daily basis with devuan, lately ive found that if i use anything bleeding edge like archlinux, voidlinux, artixlinux, i will get complete lockups/freezes but using devuan stable, debian stable my old machine runs fine. I cant figure this out. I have been running the backported 5.9 kernel for a few days with no issues, yet if i run archlinux linux-lts or even in voidlinux the 4.19 kernel it will just lockup/freeze unable ssh or get a tty. Might be time to update but as long as devuan still works i dont see a reason too, im hoping when chimeara becomes stable i wont have these issues and can run the computer for another few years.

Small problem, voidlinux isn't bleeding edge, its rolling release with a focus on stability.

So I guess you could say its semi rolling release. I think? I haven't used it a whole lot, but, I also noticed that using musl's voidlinux is a little more buggy.

More importantly though, I also noticed that connman is the easiest interface to get started for voidlinux. 

Depends also though how it is installed on your comp too though.

But yeah, Archlinux can be a mess.  Dunno about Artixlinux though... probably similar though

Warning about void though, if your laptop doesn't need non-free crap, just forcibly remove it. I had no issues as long as it is a libreboot or coreboot + me cleaned device.
Otherwise, you very likely need to keep it.

A side note though, libreboot is being rebranded in the future...

smile

Actually just a small edit, the first time I installed voidlinux which was sometime between 2014-2018 or something like that, there were small bugs if you wanted to use certain apps,

That's about it though.  I have a feeling they improved it vastly since then.

Last edited by zapper (2021-01-21 13:03:08)


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!

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#7 2021-01-21 14:01:20

dice
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Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 222  
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Re: stable vs bleeding edge

zapper wrote:
dice wrote:

I have some old hardware i use on a daily basis with devuan, lately ive found that if i use anything bleeding edge like archlinux, voidlinux, artixlinux, i will get complete lockups/freezes but using devuan stable, debian stable my old machine runs fine. I cant figure this out. I have been running the backported 5.9 kernel for a few days with no issues, yet if i run archlinux linux-lts or even in voidlinux the 4.19 kernel it will just lockup/freeze unable ssh or get a tty. Might be time to update but as long as devuan still works i dont see a reason too, im hoping when chimeara becomes stable i wont have these issues and can run the computer for another few years.

Small problem, voidlinux isn't bleeding edge, its rolling release with a focus on stability.

So I guess you could say its semi rolling release. I think? I haven't used it a whole lot, but, I also noticed that using musl's voidlinux is a little more buggy.

Yeah it says stable rolling release, for me not so stable and this was not the musl variation but the glibc variation via netinstall (yes it can be done in voidlinux, similar to the arch way). I installed it the other day and no word of a lie the computer froze in the first 2 minutes. Basic xfce4 install. Im not about to complain to them though, the laptop i tested it on is ten years old. Anyhow i might be able to get my hands on a later model laptop from 2015/16, a lenovo x250 - i5, has a tiny screen though at 13.3 inches, im used to 15 inches on my toshiba sat.

Might be time to say goodbye to the toshiba, but i live in hope of making this thing work for 15 years, hopefully devuan can get me there smile

Edit: i have an even older dell laptop from around 2008 that is now happily buzzing away streaming some youtube at low res using slitaz linux, pretty sure it will last another 2 - 3 years with a battery upgrade.

Last edited by dice (2021-01-21 14:06:27)


“That which is below is like that which is above, and that which is above is like that which is below, to perform the miracles of one only thing.”

-Hermes Trismegistos

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#8 2021-01-22 06:43:53

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 221  

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

dice wrote:
zapper wrote:
dice wrote:

I have some old hardware i use on a daily basis with devuan, lately ive found that if i use anything bleeding edge like archlinux, voidlinux, artixlinux, i will get complete lockups/freezes but using devuan stable, debian stable my old machine runs fine. I cant figure this out. I have been running the backported 5.9 kernel for a few days with no issues, yet if i run archlinux linux-lts or even in voidlinux the 4.19 kernel it will just lockup/freeze unable ssh or get a tty. Might be time to update but as long as devuan still works i dont see a reason too, im hoping when chimeara becomes stable i wont have these issues and can run the computer for another few years.

Small problem, voidlinux isn't bleeding edge, its rolling release with a focus on stability.

So I guess you could say its semi rolling release. I think? I haven't used it a whole lot, but, I also noticed that using musl's voidlinux is a little more buggy.

Yeah it says stable rolling release, for me not so stable and this was not the musl variation but the glibc variation via netinstall (yes it can be done in voidlinux, similar to the arch way). I installed it the other day and no word of a lie the computer froze in the first 2 minutes. Basic xfce4 install. Im not about to complain to them though, the laptop i tested it on is ten years old. Anyhow i might be able to get my hands on a later model laptop from 2015/16, a lenovo x250 - i5, has a tiny screen though at 13.3 inches, im used to 15 inches on my toshiba sat.

Might be time to say goodbye to the toshiba, but i live in hope of making this thing work for 15 years, hopefully devuan can get me there smile

Edit: i have an even older dell laptop from around 2008 that is now happily buzzing away streaming some youtube at low res using slitaz linux, pretty sure it will last another 2 - 3 years with a battery upgrade.

Why not get something you can have without the intel me or amd psp?

Such as a thinkpad x230 with coreboot and intel me neutered?

I have such a device, and it runs very fast. Like it can handle 3x the load of my thinkpad x200 at least and its maybe 4x faster. smile

Just my two cents regarding what you should get. 

And in the later future you could wait for something more open source friendly such as mnt reform or that balthazar laptop from balthazar.space

That would have risc-v, so it might be 3 or more years away from happening. I  bet a risc-v laptop that's 90% freedom friendly hardware with few backdoors, will be out by the time HyperbolaBSD is out. tongue

Aka, 2024 or later. wink

My bad though, im getting off topic.

Ath9k + intel me neutered + coreboot or retroboot when that is out for the thinkpad x230, is a good fit. Your choice, but I myself enjoy it.

Till someone learns how to remove the intel me code on it completely, I will probably use it for light gaming. smile


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!

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#9 2021-01-22 12:09:06

F_Sauce
Member
From: Noreg
Registered: 2017-07-07
Posts: 67  

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

Beside the point all of this!

My former main-computer (day to day) was an Intel Q{xxx}, from 2007 (until 2019) I think?
I gave it away to my mum, but when I had it, it were constantly on; I think it is like that now as well; running all the time, without trouble (changed HD's of course).

My oldest OS is running on devices from 1999; SuSE 9.1. is installed now, I am a bit nostalgic.

Trouble with kernel, try to compile it yourself; it isn't too hard really; I started out with music as focus, building Linux DAWs; bit of a struggle, but got there in the end
smile

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#10 2021-01-22 15:07:28

andyprough
Member
Registered: 2019-10-19
Posts: 16  

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

F_Sauce wrote:

My oldest OS is running on devices from 1999; SuSE 9.1. is installed now, I am a bit nostalgic.

What kind of hardware is running SuSE 9.1 for you? That was an all-time great OS, I did accounting work for several years on the SuSE 9.x series.

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#11 2021-01-22 23:04:42

F_Sauce
Member
From: Noreg
Registered: 2017-07-07
Posts: 67  

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

Hei Andy, I'll check, back soon.

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#12 2021-01-23 15:38:14

dice
Member
Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 222  
Website

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

F_Sauce wrote:

Hei Andy, I'll check, back soon.

Oh noes, F_Sauce might be caught in a time warp. wink


“That which is below is like that which is above, and that which is above is like that which is below, to perform the miracles of one only thing.”

-Hermes Trismegistos

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#13 2021-01-25 21:27:02

F_Sauce
Member
From: Noreg
Registered: 2017-07-07
Posts: 67  

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

dice wrote:
F_Sauce wrote:

Hei Andy, I'll check, back soon.

Oh noes, F_Sauce might be caught in a time warp. wink

smile

I'm a bit nostalgic, used to play (occasional «now» as well) some old games on it.
CPU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_III, still running fine!
GPU: (PCI) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_FX_series.
Upgraded (spinning) hard-drives, but with 1999 original mother-board and RAM.

If you are very interested Andy, I will give you all the current hardware details; I booted it up last probably a year ago, no trouble I presume!

When I first installed Linux and SuSE 9.1 ... , it was newer hardware; it was a Dell from 2002/3 with a Pentium 4 CPU, I threw away Windows and started smile

Cheers,
Olav

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#14 2021-01-25 21:35:55

F_Sauce
Member
From: Noreg
Registered: 2017-07-07
Posts: 67  

Re: stable vs bleeding edge

PS
All my current computers runs fine on Devuan!

Did not mean to have focus away from you're issue dice, sorry about that!

Last edited by F_Sauce (2021-01-25 21:43:35)

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