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#1 2017-06-06 21:27:41

spartrekus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-30
Posts: 88

Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Hello,

Since there are more people developing Debian, does it leave some chances to survive to Deuan. The idea / concept of Devuan is really cool, but what about it s future.

Bugs reporting but also fixing them are important issues.

Thank you

Last edited by spartrekus (2017-06-07 05:43:20)

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#2 2017-06-06 22:35:15

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 58

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Hello,

Surely you have something better to do with your time than to keep trolling this forum.

Thank you.

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#3 2017-06-07 05:40:13

spartrekus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-30
Posts: 88

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

sgage wrote:

Hello,

Thank you.

This was a serious question. Bugs reporting but also fixing them are an important issues.

Explanation: it is not easy to maintain a distro. Is the core development team sufficiently large enough to fix all bugs, .... ?


Maybe I can change the title of the thread, since it does not so much match to this idea of bugs,.... I should have mentioned it in first post.

Hopefully there will be always interests in Devuan.

Last edited by spartrekus (2017-06-07 05:42:25)

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#4 2017-06-07 08:50:21

FOSSuser
Member
From: Surrey/Hants border UK
Registered: 2016-12-11
Posts: 167

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Devuan has a strong team behind it.
It has only taken this long to reach a release because of the major work of checking every program for reliance on systemd.
Now that this has been achieved, the load on the devs will be a lot less, & I think they will cope admirably.
We just need to give them support in any way that we can. smile

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#5 2017-06-07 08:53:37

FOSSuser
Member
From: Surrey/Hants border UK
Registered: 2016-12-11
Posts: 167

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

@sgage
spartrekus may seem like a troll to you, but I have seen some of his/her other posts in other forums, s/he is a programmer, & certainly not a troll. smile

Last edited by FOSSuser (2017-06-07 08:55:59)

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#6 2017-06-07 12:29:07

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 58

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

spartrekus wrote:
sgage wrote:

Hello,

Thank you.

This was a serious question. Bugs reporting but also fixing them are an important issues.

Explanation: it is not easy to maintain a distro. Is the core development team sufficiently large enough to fix all bugs, .... ?


Maybe I can change the title of the thread, since it does not so much match to this idea of bugs,.... I should have mentioned it in first post.

Hopefully there will be always interests in Devuan.

I apologize for using the t-word - your posting just hit me wrong. The Devuan team pours heart and soul into this project, and it seemed an odd thing to come along and doubt their survival...

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#7 2017-06-07 16:41:40

Somewhat Reticent
Member
Registered: 2017-04-06
Posts: 100

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Has Linux_Mint survived Ubuntu and DebIan?  They both have more $ponsor$. wink
(How do you define "survival"?)
Also consider how long these have persisted:  Slackware, SliTAZ, or Mandrake/Mandrive/OpenMandriva/Mageia/PCLOS.

Last edited by Somewhat Reticent (2017-07-20 13:46:25)

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#8 2017-06-07 20:03:36

spartrekus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-30
Posts: 88

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Indeed tiny coding rocks, this... may be kinda cool for you if you are a terminal geek or admin ... 
https://github.com/spartrekus/nc

Hopefully some parts of SystemD will not enter into the DEVUAN... It certainly won't be easy at all.
SystemD is strongly into the Debian system, enchaining users.

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#9 2017-06-12 15:33:40

valduboisvert
Member
Registered: 2017-04-25
Posts: 5

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Indeed that nc-demo looks promising to me.

Val

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#10 2017-06-12 17:20:07

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 157
Website

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

i see some of all the @spartrekus post here, and seems he made same questions i made already..

some serious questions..  i see that Devuan has a very thin frontier to the precipice if not got serious..

I see some recomendations due i really like the product now:

1) help to someone that may makes equivalents to Kenshi Muto  backport-magesi debian isos.. the backports images got popularity at degree that makes backports now a normal repository, so the debian installers now can use directly some recents packages with few installer customizations

2) improve easy of use offline tools, i can see the documentation are too fracmented, i try to follow the official documentation for made packages and see that there's no oficial documentation.. my recomendations for that case, provide a debian falback way to made package in offline mode.. or in ppa repository equivalent, but nothing

3) BTS seems alone.. i reported firs at git debuian.. then see the BTS,, reporting here now.. then BTS get down.. and again up.. no notice about it.. please an anunce minimal site are welcome, some mail not come to me an some reports are imposible to made due there's no devuan equivalent for, by example debian-i18n or must be locale?

i setup a special docs in friends of devuan for many hardwares (i have a lof of flavors to setup) but since some days i cannot edit, and i take care of spelling http://wiki.friendsofdevuan.org/doku.ph … tup_guides

Last edited by mckaygerhard (2017-06-12 17:21:29)

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#11 2017-06-19 06:23:28

steelpillow
Member
Registered: 2017-06-19
Posts: 5

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

If I may pose an honest question which I think is relevant to this topic, how much of all the good package compatibility work will find/has found its way back into the source from which Debian repos are built, so that a straight Debian + sysvinit setup will be Devuan in all but name?
I think this issue must eventually work its way through into whether Debian backtracks and effectively offers a clean sysvinit (ie systemd dependency-free) install option which draws in all the Devuan goodness, in which case the fork would have done its job and could be gracefully re-merged. Or is that a) an ideal that can never in reality happen or even b) anything but ideal?

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#12 2017-06-19 07:31:59

darry1966
Member
Registered: 2017-06-14
Posts: 40

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

I believe the answer is yes it can survive and even flourish as there is Refracta team as well to feed back to Devuan.  Basically Devuan works better on my machine than Debian so long live Devuan.:)

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#13 2017-06-20 01:48:07

garyz.dev1
Member
Registered: 2017-06-15
Posts: 79

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

I too believe it can grow into a mature product - Debian didn't just spring up!
I am pretty sure that there are some bugs at Debian.
We have Gentoo, Slackware, ArchLinux that all server different users
AND NOW we have Devuan giving us back our freedom - but it does cost.....
'
2 cents

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#14 2017-06-20 08:43:39

FOSSuser
Member
From: Surrey/Hants border UK
Registered: 2016-12-11
Posts: 167

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

steelpillow wrote:

If I may pose an honest question which I think is relevant to this topic, how much of all the good package compatibility work will find/has found its way back into the source from which Debian repos are built, so that a straight Debian + sysvinit setup will be Devuan in all but name?
I think this issue must eventually work its way through into whether Debian backtracks and effectively offers a clean sysvinit (ie systemd dependency-free) install option which draws in all the Devuan goodness, in which case the fork would have done its job and could be gracefully re-merged. Or is that a) an ideal that can never in reality happen or even b) anything but ideal?

Debian has a bureaucracy, Devuan is a collective, which makes for a very different way of decision making.

Even if Debian were to go back to another init system, why would you give up on a team that understood the problem they, Debian, created & gave us a 'free' system choice?

No, I don't think Devuan will merge back into Debian. Devuan will grow stronger & become a major player in the base distro area.

Edit: Devuan developers are listening to what its users want.

Last edited by FOSSuser (2017-06-20 08:45:20)

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#15 2017-06-20 09:42:54

darry1966
Member
Registered: 2017-06-14
Posts: 40

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Cannot see Debian changing back to SysV as so many Debian packages are infected by Systemd dependence.

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#16 2017-06-22 15:01:19

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 157
Website

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

darry1966 wrote:

I believe the answer is yes it can survive and even flourish as there is Refracta team as well to feed back to Devuan.  Basically Devuan works better on my machine than Debian so long live Devuan.:)

me too, rock better, but we talk about the future, not the present!

garyz.dev1 wrote:

AND NOW we have Devuan giving us back our freedom - but it does cost.....

you are totally wrong, Devuan are still based on Debian work.. so the freedom are based on the Debian complication and Devuan availibility of comunity effors.. so if "there's no time" and/or "there's no money" .. the future are black..

as example: xorg soon will drop support complety to older chips.. i have many machines WORKING with matrox, ati and voodo chips.. so due DRI and KMS modern linuxes will not work anymore.. my tv-capture cards also never will go back due that

FOSSuser wrote:

Debian has a bureaucracy, Devuan is a collective, which makes for a very different way of decision making.

No, I don't think Devuan will merge back into Debian. Devuan will grow stronger & become a major player in the base distro area.

Edit: Devuan developers are listening to what its users want.

we all can dream.... make it really its a hard processs

currently Debian dropped support for all 586/486 hardware.. i have some of that machines configured as firewalls.. so then of course Devuan as Debian "copy" (no? its not and make proxy of the packages?) also will drop support for 486/586.... so ill let Devuan..

if we think that nobody today uses older hardware.. we are totally wrong.. users with newer hardware will not complicated if systemd are or not in their OS's.. their have powered machine.. only install and use it!

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#17 2017-06-23 08:03:22

FOSSuser
Member
From: Surrey/Hants border UK
Registered: 2016-12-11
Posts: 167

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Well, if support for 3/4/586 is still in the kernel, you can build your own kernel & continue to use your old hardware.
Might eventually have to build your own 32bit software yourself too, but it should remain possible.
Inconvenient, yes, but times change, & we don't tend to ride around on horses much these days. wink

Support, as in security updates, will probably end fairly soon, but when you think about it, 64bit systems have been with us for a while now.
Arm processors are getting more prevalent too, so we might see a shift away from 'Intel' archetechture in the near future.
After all, we don't see many 8086 or 8088 based machines around nowadays. smile

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#18 2017-07-17 09:27:18

fungus
Member
From: Any witch way
Registered: 2017-07-12
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

FOSSuser wrote:

Debian has a bureaucracy, Devuan is a collective, which makes for a very different way of decision making.

Debian is just as democratic as any western democracy.  It is organized so the public is excluded from the
decision process.  Participation and representation by demagogues and populists is an insult to the ideal of democracy.

You, the OP, are judging future as a dynamic process having a static picture.  Your premise is that debian due to
the high current number of developers will continue developing a good solid system.  This is a "if ... " loop you are
trapped under.  "If" Debian took the wrong turn a while back due to a bad "political decision" influenced by
market and not solid scientific reasoning, Debian will run aground in uncharted waters.  So If and "if not else" is
very significant in analyzing your question.  Look up here and elsewhere postgres and uncontrollable logging
and tell me why so many developers not only can not fix will not even accept this is a bug causing problems
to servers (as a user I can't tell this is a problem).  19log entries a minute without the possibility to stop them
is a problem for any server that does not just deletes all logs in equal rates.

In any way you look at it, it is a bet.  I am betting due to the political decision and philosophy of Devuan.
I have been twice in life abandoned a love relationship, still in love, because of problems of cohabitation.
This is how I feel about debian.  I loved it and still wish I could live with it, but I'd rather not.  I think Manjaro
with OpenRC was a rebound relationship, I'd like to make a family with Devuan now.

Live long and prosper my friends.

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#19 2017-07-17 09:37:04

darry1966
Member
Registered: 2017-06-14
Posts: 40

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Well I tried Debian Buster - I could remove pulseaudio but remove systemd???

Nah I was left with a non-functioning system.  The tentacles of Systemd have made their way even further into the debian ecosystem.:(

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#20 2017-07-19 00:01:55

lazlo
Member
From: the Top Left of the Noosphere
Registered: 2017-05-15
Posts: 31

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

I am sure Devuan will be around for the long run.  It already has a lot of momentum and is gaining more as time goes on.  You can see this on the list of the 100 most popular distros on Distrowatch.com.

As of today Devuan is ranked:

61 over the past 12 months
42 over the past 6 month
22 over the past 3 months
43 over the past 30 days
40 over the past 7 days

The trend so far is that Devuan gets small bumps in popularity every time there is news story about a security whole or stability flaw that gets marked as "won't fix" on the systemd bug tracker.  Devuan has naturally gotten large bumps in popularity when it has announced any form of "point release" or when a large project announces that it will be built from or based on Devuan. 

The "point releases" have stopped since 1.0 was announced and the number of businesses and distros building on top of Devuan is not large yet.  In my opinion both of these will start contributing a lot more when a beta of ascii is formally announced.

EDIT:  Oh, and on the 6 month list (which is the default list view) Devuan is more popular than Kubuntu, Ubuntu Gnome, Red hat, or Alpine Linux.  It is right below Gentoo which at this time is Number 41 on the list.


lazlo

Last edited by lazlo (2017-07-19 00:13:25)

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#21 2017-07-19 08:59:30

fungus
Member
From: Any witch way
Registered: 2017-07-12
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

If a system has no bugs, no requests to change or improve anything, the perfect system, it will rank 200 in the distrowatch list.  It would be considered a dead
project and abandoned.  A good system in their logic is one that has too many bugs and every little step on clearing out 1% of them is a point release.

So much for indexing and rating scales marketing people devise.

Devuan 2 the final release smile

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#22 2017-07-19 09:33:07

yeti
Member
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 23

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Who looks up distributions at Distrowatch?

Probably not the ones having found what they need.

Who remains?

Fanboyz pushing the clickscount of their favorite toys and visitors really looking for information.
Probably more fanboyz than really curious ones...

So why should I waste a brain minute for thinking about Distrowatch?

Oooops!
Hereby I did...
Shit happens!

Won't do it again, mom!
I promise!

Last edited by yeti (2017-07-19 09:34:39)


"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." — Janet Reno
"Isch ahbe fertisch!" — Sisyphos
"Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority." — The 2nd Doctor
"No Source — No Go!" — yeti.

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#23 2017-07-19 15:29:49

fungus
Member
From: Any witch way
Registered: 2017-07-12
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

Is there a gray area for those who have not found exactly what they need, funboyz, and distrohoppers?
I believe there is.   If you know too much you don't need a distro, you can build a system on your own. 
Most of us can't.  I don't think there is anyone I know that can build a system of similar capabilities of a
debian or an arch.  Collaboration among those that do know can build a system within the parameters
of an agreed philosophy.  Some of us are here under the illusion that what is stated as philosophy is
the actual guide for doing things.

I would have never left debian, despite of systemd, if I thought the philosophy was the guide and not
personal and economic interests that guided decisions.  Based on the commitment to such a philosophy
I currently think that if there is a future this is it.  But markets do not work on facts and people are like
bees on syrup.  So clicking on distrowatch is a way of telling the easily trapped that there is something
good here, better take a look.  Otherwise they will be lost in slumbundu-land.  I have never installed
mint or ubuntu, not because they are bad, but because that is what this market sells.  But I have tried
loads of crappy suspicious stuff that are on the bottom of the list, which is too bad.


"no source no god" 2700 years ago (I think that is how long it was) someone explained that if there
is such a thing as god logic must surely have preceded his existence, so if he exists he must have
incorporated logic.  Heraclitus

Last edited by fungus (2017-07-19 15:32:14)

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#24 2017-07-19 17:08:40

yeti
Member
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 23

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

fungus wrote:

If you know too much you don't need a distro, you can build a system on your own.

If you know enough, you can ... sure ... but then you definitely do know why not to build an own distribution too... :-P

fungus wrote:

I would have never left debian, despite of systemd,

I'm on Debian since the mid90s and up to Debian6 it was near to boringly smooth... ;-) ...so I had the time to play with other stuff too. Then Wheezy made things worse and Jessie got a bit better again, but nothing beats my time with Debian6... even Evolution was stable those days! ***sigh!***

fungus wrote:

I have never installed mint or ubuntu, not because they are bad, but because that is what this market sells.

I tried Ubuntu when it was very young and morphing a Debian to Ubuntu was like a version upgrade (luckily it worked back to Debian the same way too :-P). Later, when I got my 1st notebook and I was told Ubuntu would  work better with "such modern stuff", I tried it again. Those were 6hrs of torture and then the notebook got Lenny (was "testing" at that time) and all was good again.

I think Ubuntu's small differences to Debian were worse for me than having a totally different pet (like BSD) under my fingers...

And now here we are... and systemd has to stay outside... \o/


"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." — Janet Reno
"Isch ahbe fertisch!" — Sisyphos
"Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority." — The 2nd Doctor
"No Source — No Go!" — yeti.

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#25 2017-07-19 17:53:59

fungus
Member
From: Any witch way
Registered: 2017-07-12
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Can Devuan survive and face the development of Debian?

I started way back.  I first used forms of unix in school, after useless time with dos-pc and mainframe vt100 terminals, then I used x-windows in SGI and SUN machines at work, when they would cost as much as a decent house, and win31 at home.  Then I went into a phase where I refused to work indoors and inside
office space.  Still did stuff with pcs for mariners wanting charts and autopilots connected and gps stuff, as I had worked on chartography before I started fixing
boat and driving trucks.  I had a navigational system in the truck before anyone had heard the term in the trucking industry smile   You can make money back then
if you didn't get lost and did not trust maps blindly smile
That was a good period.  Finally someone who had only used MSwin told me that all computers in the market are 64bit now.  So I made a comeback and since I can no longer do outdoor work much, I still knew I should try AMD stuff and linux.  Hey ls stil worked smile  and so did chmod and etc.  It all came back.
After winxp spending 10' fixing  someone's problem would get my stomach upset.  After catching up on the status of things debian making such a big deal on free and open had me attrackted.  The more I studied up on what systemd and associates were really up to the more I got disoriented with people defending that choice in debian.  I went with Manjaro for a while for the rush at latest stuff and their openness (advertised) on init systems.

Then devuan became stable and got my attention, although for some reason I had an older image and never got around in trying it.  Manjaro makes alot of noise
and claiming many things that they have yet to deliver.  Apart of systemd their claim of being friendly to init systems is small communities of users just trying to make it work.  Their prime system is systemd, but it is rock solid.    Linus signs something and 2 weeks later it shows up on testing and it works just like the one from two weeks before.  But OpenRC/sysvinit is still a project for development.  You can get it to work but you never know whether the next update will give you
functional system.  5 people on the forum is all the support you may ever get.

Now the systemd gangsters are thinking that by the time it will be revealed what is what it will be too late, as 90% of servers and users will be "customers" without a choice.  So this is worth any discomfort of fixing stuff like a holly war against the rich and poweful.    Can anyone verify that a sealed copy of systemd is not part of windows already?   Money interests can get many bad choices be very effective.

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