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#1 2020-11-19 00:31:03

Micronaut
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Registered: 2019-07-04
Posts: 92  

Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

All reports are that the performance of the hardware is great. And there are many advantages to finally getting away from the x86 instruction set. But... Apple is just like Microsoft and Google, or maybe worse, in trying to control and watch everything that users of their OS do. So, I'm wondering if this "proprietary" architecture poses some kind of legal or technical obstacles to a Linux distro? Or will someone be compiling Devuan for the M1 architecture soon?

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#2 2020-11-20 18:07:34

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,142  
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Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

Devuan already supports the 64-bit ARM architecture (arm64) but the various subsystems on their M1 SoC will need to have drivers added to the kernel, along with drivers for the rest of the attached hardware.

EDIT: and bootloader support as well, which will probably be a challenge because Apple will try to lock it out as much as possible.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2020-11-20 18:09:50)


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#3 2020-11-21 07:34:56

steve_v
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Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 55  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

bootloader support as well, which will probably be a challenge because Apple will try to lock it out as much as possible.

I fully expect Apple to go out of their way to make running anything not endorsed by Apple as close to impossible as they can.

If the current pattern holds, hardware will be undocumented, driver sources unreleased, and boot restricted and encrypted.
Not only will the OS and bootloader have to be signed by Apple, but any applications you want to run will need to be cryptographically verified on every launch as well. Because "security".

If any replacement parts are available, they will be be coded such that third-party repair bricks the device, but that won't be a problem because they'll strong-arm their suppliers into denying anyone else parts to begin with.
Miserable thermal performance, needlessly fragile design, soldered-in SSDs and special screws will of course continue as normal, as will glued-in batteries and planned-obsolescence.


Honestly, given their recent perpetual and pervasive anti-consumer anti-freedom behaviour, I'm rather puzzled why anyone would want to run Devuan on Apple hardware. Why not just buy a better designed machine for a better price and run whatever you want on it without all the hassle?

On the topic of the new "M1" apple-designed SOCs specifically, if the price for HBM is non-upgradeable memory to go with all the other non-repairable non-upgradeable fruitiness, I think I'll pass.


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#4 2020-11-21 12:01:27

Altoid
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Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 514  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

Hello:

steve_v wrote:

... puzzled why anyone would want to run Devuan on Apple hardware.
... buy a better designed machine for a better price ...

Quite so.
+1
What is it about not being able to do whatever you want to do with your (obviously) overpriced, (usually) irrepairable and (mostly) non-upgradeable hardware?
Why it is alluring to so many people?

I wonder if it would be the same if the Apple logo disappeared from their portable's lid and as a consequence, from 90% of movies that feature a laptop in a scene.

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2020-11-21 12:04:18)

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#5 2020-11-21 13:50:42

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 55  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

Altoid wrote:

Why it is alluring to so many people?

TBH I expect they're the same people who care more about what colour their car is or how expensive it looks than they do about reliability or performance.
In the good old days we'd call it "more money than sense" and leave it at that.

What I don't get is why anyone with the motivation and good taste to install a relatively obscure GNU/Linux distro (and one aimed at veteran sysadmins to boot) would want to wear the hair-shirt of running it on the latest shiny-new-shit MacBook, Apple and homebrew hacking of any kind parted ways decades ago and they've been intentionally making life difficult for us for almost as long.



Altoid wrote:

I wonder if it would be the same if the Apple logo disappeared from their portable's lid and as a consequence, from 90% of movies that feature a laptop in a scene.

Anyone with a lick of sense should already know that nothing computer-related in a movie bears the slightest resemblance to reality, so I'm not sure it'd make much difference.

Personally I take some glee in being the only one with a large GNU-head on my laptop lid in a room full of fruit, almost as much as I do at having superior performance and battery life, as well as the dents to prove my machine doesn't disintegrate when breathed on.
Then again I'm kinda nonconformist by nature, so, vOv.





I can understand the appeal of getting away from x86 (TBF I don't mind it at all, I still work with the venerable 8086 regularly), but Apple isn't the only game in town, and more arm-based projects are appearing all the time.
I can't help thinking effort would be better spent supporting (and buying) systems that are designed with GNU/Linux and software-freedom in mind.

Last edited by steve_v (2020-11-21 14:05:06)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#6 2020-11-21 17:44:46

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,142  
Website

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

Altoid wrote:

Why it is alluring to so many people?

Well the 5nm process is pretty good, especially considering that Intel are still stuck with their antediluvian 14nm dies, and the reported benchmarks are actually quite impressive. But Ryzen still kills it big_smile

Anyway I'm with steve_v — Apple are a bunch of ****s. I threw a massive party when Steve Jobs died.


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#7 2020-11-22 01:58:40

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 141  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Altoid wrote:

Why it is alluring to so many people?

Well the 5nm process is pretty good, especially considering that Intel are still stuck with their antediluvian 14nm dies, and the reported benchmarks are actually quite impressive. But Ryzen still kills it big_smile

Anyway I'm with steve_v — Apple are a bunch of ****s. I threw a massive party when Steve Jobs died.

I get that apple is the worst, but why would you throw a party when Steve Jobs died? Usually in corporations like that, a newer, worse person takes over in hostile corporations or corpsoration if you understand my meaning... (Corpse! tongue)

I have heard it said also that Tim Cook made apple even more surveillance friendly, meaning the spying was increased dramatically...

Regardless, I like the idea of using arm in the future...

Also, I say screw you AMD and in the future when I get the MNT Reform, I hope to use Intel less too, aside from gaming... wink

Although, Intel has less issues then  AMD when it comes to bios issues and freedom. 

If you tinker with anything post 2012 AMD it shuts off in the bios if I recall correctly, where as intel gen 4 didn't have that issue AFAIK

That being said,  ARM + RISC-V are a good way to go...  as long as the people making it have some sense.

OpenPower however...      Is questionable...  hmm  unless someone tinkers with power9 to make it way more lightweight.  Because someone I recall said that power10's license might have changed... for the worse. 

My two cents...  though!

PS, I don't use intel anymore without coreboot and intel me disabled, or coreboot and intel me removed/libreboot.

Last edited by zapper (2020-11-22 01:59:57)


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!

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#8 2020-11-22 12:45:25

dice
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Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 9  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

without apple we wouldnt have the hackintosh !

Steve jobs was a blow hard but i wouldnt be partying cause he died, bad karma dude.

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#9 2020-11-22 13:33:18

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 55  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

dice wrote:

without apple we wouldnt have the hackintosh

Once, long ago, apple was a respectable company with some pretty nice hardware and a loyal hacker following.
That all changed with the ipod, when someone realised there was more money to be made selling pretty disposable toys and building vendor lock-in to keep people coming back.


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#10 2020-11-22 13:42:26

dice
Member
Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 9  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

steve_v wrote:
dice wrote:

without apple we wouldnt have the hackintosh

Once, long ago, apple was a respectable company with some pretty nice hardware and a loyal hacker following.
That all changed with the ipod, when someone realised there was more money to be made selling pretty disposable toys and building vendor lock-in to keep people coming back.

yeah i know, birth of the smart technology, all the cool hackable tech got rail roaded way back then in favor of the igotsuckedinto apple marketing. I bought an apple ipod 2nd gen when it came out after hearing so much about it mid 2000's, as soon as i realised what a shitfight it was to make the thing work with itunes and such, that was the last apple tech i bought. Its good to see how gnu and linux can hack into macintosh given the right parameters, jobs would be rolling in his grave at that!

Last edited by dice (2020-11-22 13:46:52)

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#11 2020-11-23 07:09:49

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 141  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

dice wrote:
steve_v wrote:
dice wrote:

without apple we wouldnt have the hackintosh

Once, long ago, apple was a respectable company with some pretty nice hardware and a loyal hacker following.
That all changed with the ipod, when someone realised there was more money to be made selling pretty disposable toys and building vendor lock-in to keep people coming back.

yeah i know, birth of the smart technology, all the cool hackable tech got rail roaded way back then in favor of the igotsuckedinto apple marketing. I bought an apple ipod 2nd gen when it came out after hearing so much about it mid 2000's, as soon as i realised what a shitfight it was to make the thing work with itunes and such, that was the last apple tech i bought. Its good to see how gnu and linux can hack into macintosh given the right parameters, jobs would be rolling in his grave at that!

That is odd, pity apple had to become so tainted... hmm

Sounds like the original intent of walmart  only in its  case the motto was "made in the usa" but when the founder died,  the person who took over and wrecked the store by outsourcing anything they could and made it into a horrible and tainted chain... pity when good ideals are corrupted eh...


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!

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#12 2020-11-23 09:58:14

dice
Member
Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 9  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

zapper wrote:
dice wrote:
steve_v wrote:

Once, long ago, apple was a respectable company with some pretty nice hardware and a loyal hacker following.
That all changed with the ipod, when someone realised there was more money to be made selling pretty disposable toys and building vendor lock-in to keep people coming back.

yeah i know, birth of the smart technology, all the cool hackable tech got rail roaded way back then in favor of the igotsuckedinto apple marketing. I bought an apple ipod 2nd gen when it came out after hearing so much about it mid 2000's, as soon as i realised what a shitfight it was to make the thing work with itunes and such, that was the last apple tech i bought. Its good to see how gnu and linux can hack into macintosh given the right parameters, jobs would be rolling in his grave at that!

That is odd, pity apple had to become so tainted... hmm

Sounds like the original intent of walmart  only in its  case the motto was "made in the usa" but when the founder died,  the person who took over and wrecked the store by outsourcing anything they could and made it into a horrible and tainted chain... pity when good ideals are corrupted eh...

Back then the music industry i think got on board with apple to safeguard music royalties in a way by getting people locked into a device where you had to pay for music you may or may not like and even then the way it was loaded onto the device via syncing or what not was and is a shitty way to own a sound file IMO. I dont know the whole story of hand but it all started back around when napster died. Still if you look youtube and youtube-dl, andoid and the like it still didnt stop piracy and never will. Ive still got an old mp3 player from back in 2006 and it works perfectly.

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#13 2020-11-23 11:11:25

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 55  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

dice wrote:

Back then the music industry i think got on board with apple to safeguard music royalties in a way by getting people locked into a device where you had to pay for music you may or may not like and even then the way it was loaded onto the device via syncing or what not was and is a shitty way to own a sound file IMO.

The record industry (not to be confused with actual artists) was and still is convinced that consumers should rent access rather than own content.

Apple took things a step further, and sold a device that was essentially useless without subscribing to the content service... A content service where it looks like you've bought something, but actually using it is encumbered with DRM and tied to a subscription tightly controlled by the manufacturer. Then they doubled down and said you're not even supposed to be able to replace the battery.

You don't really own anything on iTunes, and even if you import your own DRM-free audio files it will mangle them to prevent you copying them again.
The open-source community quickly broke these restrictions and allowed us to transfer audio files freely with open-source tools, but the anti-circumvention clauses in the DMCA mean releasing software like GTKpod today would be illegal.



This "you own nothing" attitude is becoming more and more pervasive, throughout multiple industries. Be it streaming services, unrepairable hardware, cars that report to the dealership, or walled-garden app stores, the intent is the same - corporations retaining control over products long after they have left the shelf, and milking customers long after they have left the store.
All under the banner of "Don't think, just buy. Leave everything to us. For just 4.99 (plus recurring payments) you can have all the shiny things you ever wanted... Until we decide to take it away."

Calm, fitter, healthier and more productive
A pig in a cage on antibiotics

tongue



The way I see it, we have three options here:

* Keep breaking the DRM and reverse-engineering the hardware, playing cat-and-mouse with manufacturers and risking litigation under the demented monstrosity that is US copyright law.

* Pursue legal means through right-to-repair and such - if the hardware is liberated, liberating (or replacing) the software becomes considerably easier. Freedom to repair also means less waste to landfill, less profit for big corporations and more support for small locally-run businesses. As a bonus, it would also make it easier to hack on your own gear.

*Refuse to buy such products in the first place, and support open initiatives instead. Use jitsi instead of zoom, buy from System76 or Raptor CS instead of Apple. Ditch Spotify and iTunes and get your music from Bandcamp. If some shiny-new-(i)thing doesn't allow you to be in control, don't buy it.

Disclaimer: I am a unashamed software freedom advocate, and an FSF member. I'm not a hippie, and I don't eat my toenails in public... But I sure do like my freedom, and I'll donate to the FSF long before I give a cent to apple or the RIAA.



Back on topic: If you (OP) want to spend your free time circumventing the anti-freedom measures apple has surely put into it's new laptops, nobody here will try to stop you.
Asking others to do so is asking them to spend time and effort indirectly supporting a company that is diametrically opposed to everything free-software stands for, and doing so might even be illegal in some jurisdictions. Personally I feel efforts would be better spent elsewhere.

Last edited by steve_v (2020-11-23 11:24:31)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#14 2020-11-23 11:24:04

dice
Member
Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 9  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

Good post steve_v, you summarized in depth what i was struggling to put into my post.

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#15 2020-11-23 11:34:29

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 55  

Re: Is a Devuan build for the new Apple M1 chip possible?

dice wrote:

you summarized in depth what i was struggling to put into my post.

Yours was more succinct. smile

TBH I just felt like a good rant, I'm getting kinda annoyed with all the "apple this, zoom that, steam the other thing" noise in FOSS channels at the moment.


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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