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#1 2020-09-02 22:42:59

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

mnt reform support?

https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform

Debian apparently will support this soon, will devuan do the same?

I just wondered... smile

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#2 2020-09-03 12:34:23

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 348  

Re: mnt reform support?

Looks like an interesting endeavor. Its good to see that some people care about not making products via the planned obsolescence route for whole products like a laptop, this is the way of the future we need to have more products that are easily repairable and up-gradable and also open source. It would be so much better if we bought say a tv that was able to be easily repaired, like say the screen broke and you could cost effectively replace it without having to replace the whole tv.

Last edited by HevyDevy (2020-09-03 12:37:54)


everyday is a beautiful day

eric the hobo

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#3 2020-09-03 14:02:44

bgstack15
Member
Registered: 2018-02-04
Posts: 166  

Re: mnt reform support?

You say that "Debian apparently will support this soon." Do you mean instead, that the platform will support running Debian on it? I expect that if it runs Debian, then it should be possible to get Devuan on it.


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#4 2020-09-03 14:08:26

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 348  

Re: mnt reform support?

bgstack15 wrote:

You say that "Debian apparently will support this soon." Do you mean instead, that the platform will support running Debian on it? I expect that if it runs Debian, then it should be possible to get Devuan on it.

Hopefully systemd cant get its hooks in.


everyday is a beautiful day

eric the hobo

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#5 2020-09-03 16:19:53

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

bgstack15 wrote:

You say that "Debian apparently will support this soon." Do you mean instead, that the platform will support running Debian on it? I expect that if it runs Debian, then it should be possible to get Devuan on it.

Yeah thats what I meant.  Indeed, i hope your right, I will say, if HyperbolaBSD gets a beta out, I might use that... but as for early on, meaning till 2022 or something if I get it, most likely devuan.  wink

I mention HyperbolaBSD/Hyperbola here only for one reason, while I wait for them to support the device or indeed have an os, I will likely be using devuan on that laptop if I order one.

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#6 2020-09-03 16:20:16

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 958  
Website

Re: mnt reform support?

That is an interesting device but it's over-priced and under-powered (IMO). And they claim it runs Debian 11, which doesn't exist (yet). If they actually mean Debian bullseye then Devuan chimaera should also work on it.


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#7 2020-09-03 16:28:41

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

That is an interesting device but it's over-priced and under-powered (IMO). And they claim it runs Debian 11, which doesn't exist (yet). If they actually mean Debian bullseye then Devuan chimaera should also work on it.

Overpriced yes, but wouldn't it be as fast a thinkpad x230?  They probably meant thought that debian 11 would be out by now. tongue

Yeah it should

I say that about its speed because arm is only like 2-5 years behind in speed.

But there is one good thing, the wifi card is libre and really the only minor problem is that non-arm boot blob, which appears to not have any remote issues according to the developer of mnt reform.

Also forgot to mention, its modular and likely to be upgraded over time. smile

Last edited by zapper (2020-09-03 16:32:07)

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#8 2020-09-03 16:48:19

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 958  
Website

Re: mnt reform support?

zapper wrote:

but wouldn't it be as fast a thinkpad x230?

I doubt it, those A53 cores aren't very fast at all and the Coretex-M4F is only 32-bit. It would be much better if they used a Snapdragon 8cx but I suppose that would hit their profit margin too much.

But at least it uses an open-source compatible graphics chip, unlike the PineBook Pro and it's shitty Mali GPU.


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#9 2020-09-03 20:47:35

tuxd3v
Member
Registered: 2019-11-14
Posts: 108  

Re: mnt reform support?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
zapper wrote:

but wouldn't it be as fast a thinkpad x230?

I doubt it, those A53 cores aren't very fast at all and the Coretex-M4F is only 32-bit. It would be much better if they used a Snapdragon 8cx but I suppose that would hit their profit margin too much.

* CPU: NXP/Freescale i.MX8MQ with 4x ARM Cortex-A53 cores (1.5 GHz), 1x Cortex-M4F core. CPU and RAM are on exchangeable SO-DIMM sized module.

Its a SOM, which means you can upgrade it later for a more powerful one smile
For example the iMX8QuadMax

But I don't know if there will be a iMX8QuadMax SOM later..

For me I would buy it in a flash if it had the NXP LS2088A or the monster NXP LX2160A

The ARM Cortex-M4F, is 32 bits without any problems,
Like the majority of Power Management Units are, this processor will manage the Power Management and other things, will run targeted code to manage something outside of the OS Domain..

It seems more powerful than the Pine64 PINEBOOK or the Olimex Teres I..
I would buy one if it comes to market, at half the price smile

Last edited by tuxd3v (2020-09-04 00:20:57)


Best Regards,
tux

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#10 2020-09-04 18:12:11

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 958  
Website

Re: mnt reform support?

tuxd3v wrote:

It seems more powerful than the Pine64 PINEBOOK

It is less powerful than the Pinebook Pro (which has a Coretex A72 for the heavy lifting) but five times the price...


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#11 2020-09-05 00:38:49

tuxd3v
Member
Registered: 2019-11-14
Posts: 108  

Re: mnt reform support?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

It is less powerful than the Pinebook Pro (which has a Coretex A72 for the heavy lifting) but five times the price...

Indeed smile
the rk3399 has 2x cortex-a72 in it, plus extra 4x cortex-a53,
it also has a dual core ARM cortex-m0 for power management, and stuff

But is a CPU limited to work between [ 0- 80 ] °C, and has less peripherals than what NXP usually add to its cpus..

The cpu that compares better to Rockchip rk3399, from NXP, is the iMX8QuadMax..

Last edited by tuxd3v (2020-09-05 00:39:12)


Best Regards,
tux

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#12 2020-09-08 06:25:50

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

Hmm... so its not as fast as a thinkpad x230? can anyone who uses a similiar setup aka, with a similiar processor, give any confirmation?

I am sure its faster than my libreboot x200 though. IF nothing else... and that would be good enough for me probably. Libre wifi card, nvme ssd,

I guess it really depends on your use case, etc...

It might be fast enough or it might not,  I have no idea at the moment. But I am also interested in this:

balthazar.space   

The laptop on that webpage.    This is the news so far:

https://balthazar.space/wiki/News

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#13 2020-09-09 05:16:03

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
zapper wrote:

but wouldn't it be as fast a thinkpad x230?

I doubt it, those A53 cores aren't very fast at all and the Coretex-M4F is only 32-bit. It would be much better if they used a Snapdragon 8cx but I suppose that would hit their profit margin too much.

But at least it uses an open-source compatible graphics chip, unlike the PineBook Pro and it's shitty Mali GPU.

Tell me, would it be faster than the thinkpad x200? and if so, by how much?

just wondering, as i want a more secure laptop then my libreboot x200 for my lightweight tasks.

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#14 2020-09-09 15:55:10

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 958  
Website

Re: mnt reform support?

zapper wrote:

would it be faster than the thinkpad x200?

I really have no idea, sorry. Try searching for processor benchmarks.


Black Lives Matter

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#15 2020-09-09 21:42:55

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
zapper wrote:

would it be faster than the thinkpad x200?

I really have no idea, sorry. Try searching for processor benchmarks.

Heh, I have actually done so, but to no avail... hmm

Although, I looked on reddit and some people seem to say it will be as fast as a raspberry pi 3 B+

I am curious what that would look like.  for stuff like, palemoon, firefox, libreoffice, focuswriter, etc...

Actually I should've said faster... but yeah.  still i wonder what that places the speed level on compared to an x200, i would guess its faster, but the question is by how much.

Last edited by zapper (2020-09-09 23:21:41)

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#16 2020-09-11 19:49:43

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
tuxd3v wrote:

It seems more powerful than the Pine64 PINEBOOK

It is less powerful than the Pinebook Pro (which has a Coretex A72 for the heavy lifting) but five times the price...

Well, can you tell me something, is it the graphics card which is too slow, or the cpu speed and if so, what is the difference between

A53 and A72 in speed as well as graphics wise?



   I don't care much about new graphics too much, but I do care about cpu speed somewhat

I want it to be faster than my librebooted x200, it has a gen 2 intel processor without intel me on it.



Also, mnt reform has 4gbs of ram, it being a 64 bit processor....  would it be twice as fast as a raspberry pi3+

I have heard people say it is faster than a raspberry pi 3 b+ due to processing power, etc...

I guess I should wait before I consider buying this right? Is that your point?  Aka, see how people react to its design/speed?

Just looking for some advice I guess... heh.

If you have nothing further to say, I apologize for wasting your time. Just curious man...

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#17 2020-09-11 20:06:52

larsH
Member
Registered: 2020-05-05
Posts: 125  

Re: mnt reform support?

Hi

A quick look https://processordigest.blogspot.com/20 … essor.html

Have a nice day
Lars H

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#18 2020-09-11 22:06:48

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

larsH wrote:

Hi

A quick look https://processordigest.blogspot.com/20 … essor.html

Have a nice day
Lars H

Hmm, so they are similiar regarding preformance? is it just then the graphics that are better on a72?

That's what it looks like to me.

Last edited by zapper (2020-09-11 22:08:31)

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#19 2020-09-12 03:42:36

tuxd3v
Member
Registered: 2019-11-14
Posts: 108  

Re: mnt reform support?

zapper wrote:

Hmm, so they are similiar regarding preformance? is it just then the graphics that are better on a72?

That's what it looks like to me.

Like I said before, It seems more powerful than the Pine64 PINEBOOK or the Olimex Teres I..

But just don't expect it to be a lot more powerful, in processing power, than those, maybe some 30% faster..
It should have better disk performance, better network performance, better graphics than the  Pine64 PINEBOOK or the Olimex Teres I..

But that's it..

For it to compete with a Core2Duo you would need a lot more powerful cpu..
So the comparison with the RPi3( that you made above ), seems adequate, even thought it would be better than the rpi3, but just don't expect it to perform like a core2Duo..

x86 cpu's operate in the 2-4Ghz range, they have big caches on them, this cpu works only at max. 1.5Ghz and has small caches on it..
Also it has a in-order pipeline( x86 have out of order which are faster, but also less secure.. )

They are different things..
For a netbook, like email, chat,web( a bit limited ), ssh, and such its ok, for more than that... its to forget sad

I mean, the concept, the Idea, is fine but the raw processing power is not there yet..
if they had choose the NXP LS2088A, I would consider it has a option( also 4GB of Ram is nothing nowadays.. ), even the rpi4 now has a option for 8GB of Ram..

This is my Opinion on how I see it( taking out of the equation the emotional part of it ) smile

Last edited by tuxd3v (2020-09-12 03:54:28)


Best Regards,
tux

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#20 2020-09-12 05:50:18

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

tuxd3v wrote:
zapper wrote:

Hmm, so they are similiar regarding preformance? is it just then the graphics that are better on a72?

That's what it looks like to me.

Like I said before, It seems more powerful than the Pine64 PINEBOOK or the Olimex Teres I..

But just don't expect it to be a lot more powerful, in processing power, than those, maybe some 30% faster..
It should have better disk performance, better network performance, better graphics than the  Pine64 PINEBOOK or the Olimex Teres I..

But that's it..

For it to compete with a Core2Duo you would need a lot more powerful cpu..
So the comparison with the RPi3( that you made above ), seems adequate, even thought it would be better than the rpi3, but just don't expect it to perform like a core2Duo..

x86 cpu's operate in the 2-4Ghz range, they have big caches on them, this cpu works only at max. 1.5Ghz and has small caches on it..
Also it has a in-order pipeline( x86 have out of order which are faster, but also less secure.. )

They are different things..
For a netbook, like email, chat,web( a bit limited ), ssh, and such its ok, for more than that... its to forget sad

I mean, the concept, the Idea, is fine but the raw processing power is not there yet..
if they had choose the NXP LS2088A, I would consider it has a option( also 4GB of Ram is nothing nowadays.. ), even the rpi4 now has a option for 8GB of Ram..

This is my Opinion on how I see it( taking out of the equation the emotional part of it ) smile

Heh, I guess I did really have a lot of interest in it to the point where there was some emotion, 

I wonder what the strongest emulator it could handle would be though, dosbox or desmume?

Regardless, 4gbs of ram would be enough for a web browser like palemoon and some emulator on at the same time like desmume, dosbox or something I would think.

I also use i3wm anyways. smile   I don't like any DE's except lumina.    too much bloat man... wink

Well, maybe by 2022 theyll have a processor with quad core a72's.

Who knows right?

The developer did say was planning to sell new motherboard configurations with it in the future.  I don't know what processors will be used in the 2022 version, but who knows. That's 2 years away.

meh...

Last edited by zapper (2020-09-12 05:51:55)

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#21 2020-09-12 18:37:19

tuxd3v
Member
Registered: 2019-11-14
Posts: 108  

Re: mnt reform support?

zapper wrote:

Heh, I guess I did really have a lot of interest in it to the point where there was some emotion, 

I wonder what the strongest emulator it could handle would be though, dosbox or desmume?

Regardless, 4gbs of ram would be enough for a web browser like palemoon and some emulator on at the same time like desmume, dosbox or something I would think.

I also use i3wm anyways. smile   I don't like any DE's except lumina.    too much bloat man... wink

Well, maybe by 2022 theyll have a processor with quad core a72's.

Who knows right?

The developer did say was planning to sell new motherboard configurations with it in the future.  I don't know what processors will be used in the 2022 version, but who knows. That's 2 years away.

meh...

I understand that, I also feel the same..
To be honest, I don't know, but mnt reform should handle them smile
They are using the Same CPU in the laptop that goes into the Purism Librem 5 Smartphone( At least it was initially planned, but I don't know if something changed from that moment til now.. probably some things have changed.. ):
https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/


It has very nice features apart from the cpu/Ram, like mechanical keyboard, the mouse trackball, the storage, cpu accelerators for internet packets, and so on, but the price/limited cpu performance/Ram is a no go for me sad

They should had go with the NXP iMX8QuadMax or the most powerful cortex-a72 octacore NXP  LS2088A( 2Ghz ), and 8 GB of Ram to justify the price tag..

Have you took a look at the ASUS Chromebook C201:
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3789

its also a option, tough the keyboard would not be comparable with the mnt reform, and the storage is limited, but for a netbook it seems quite ok..
But only If you manage to get a 4GB Ram..
Also the Ram is LPDDR3 nor LPDDR4.. but it has a nice performance..
The most probable is that, if you want to get all functionality, you will have to use some binary blobs , here and there..


Best Regards,
tux

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#22 2020-09-13 00:25:01

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

tuxd3v wrote:
zapper wrote:

Heh, I guess I did really have a lot of interest in it to the point where there was some emotion, 

I wonder what the strongest emulator it could handle would be though, dosbox or desmume?

Regardless, 4gbs of ram would be enough for a web browser like palemoon and some emulator on at the same time like desmume, dosbox or something I would think.

I also use i3wm anyways. smile   I don't like any DE's except lumina.    too much bloat man... wink

Well, maybe by 2022 theyll have a processor with quad core a72's.

Who knows right?

The developer did say was planning to sell new motherboard configurations with it in the future.  I don't know what processors will be used in the 2022 version, but who knows. That's 2 years away.

meh...

I understand that, I also feel the same..
To be honest, I don't know, but mnt reform should handle them smile
They are using the Same CPU in the laptop that goes into the Purism Librem 5 Smartphone( At least it was initially planned, but I don't know if something changed from that moment til now.. probably some things have changed.. ):
https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/


It has very nice features apart from the cpu/Ram, like mechanical keyboard, the mouse trackball, the storage, cpu accelerators for internet packets, and so on, but the price/limited cpu performance/Ram is a no go for me sad

They should had go with the NXP iMX8QuadMax or the most powerful cortex-a72 octacore NXP  LS2088A( 2Ghz ), and 8 GB of Ram to justify the price tag..

Have you took a look at the ASUS Chromebook C201:
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3789

its also a option, tough the keyboard would not be comparable with the mnt reform, and the storage is limited, but for a netbook it seems quite ok..
But only If you manage to get a 4GB Ram..
Also the Ram is LPDDR3 nor LPDDR4.. but it has a nice performance..
The most probable is that, if you want to get all functionality, you will have to use some binary blobs , here and there..

If it can handle an emulator like desmume and palemoon or two emulators and palemoon, than it would probably be good enough for me till they get a better processor.

I wonder what the most recent, fastest processor type that you can get without having any remote backdoors/blobs is with 4gbs of ram or more obviously and if possible LPDDR4, wink

Anyways thanks for the thoughts. 

By the way, keep this also in mind for 2022 or later

balthazar.space

apparently, someone is planning something similiar, only with risc-v. Although its possible they may have to make an arm implemenation first. wink

EDIT:  I also wonder if the mnt reform can handle qemu with a 64 bit os.  If I had to guess, that would take up probably 100% of the cpu. So I probably wouldn't even attempt that. Till they get another processor thats 2x faster or more.

By this I mean, a virtual machine within an existing os.

Last edited by zapper (2020-09-13 00:30:34)

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#23 2020-09-13 02:27:43

tuxd3v
Member
Registered: 2019-11-14
Posts: 108  

Re: mnt reform support?

zapper wrote:

If it can handle an emulator like desmume and palemoon or two emulators and palemoon, than it would probably be good enough for me till they get a better processor.

I wonder what the most recent, fastest processor type that you can get without having any remote backdoors/blobs is with 4gbs of ram or more obviously and if possible LPDDR4, wink

Anyways thanks for the thoughts.

You welcome,
Indeed maybe mnt reform is the most open of them all( the price seems to go up when you talk of openess.. ) smile

balthazar.space
it seems they will attempt something with RISCV in mind, but they don't rule out a ARM cortex-a7x version..  smile
The project seems ambitious indeed..

Other project, that is not ARM based, but Instead PowerPC based is the www.powerpc-notebook.org
They seem each time closer to get a pcb design, for the Slimbook Eclipse laptop chassis smile
But its a laptop around 1500€( also a bit expensive.. )

Its also a 4 core cpu( SMT 2 - 8 threads ) at 2Ghz, but with some serious amount of Ram, I believe it goes till 32 or 64 GB Ram..
The problem with PowerPC(  to a less extent than RISCV ofcourse,.. because support for RISCV right now almost doesn't exist.... ), is the environment around with supported applications..

At same time Debian has a port for PowerPC 64 bits, and its growing fast..
At the moment, this is my dream of a laptop, I confess! smile

A powerful AMD eGPU( Open Source Drivers ), mechanical keyboard with RGB, tons of memory Ram( even tough its LPDDR3 ) and its dual chanel, and a cpu with 8 threads at 2Ghz, with nvme disks, everything..
But it costs around some 1500€( its a estimated price range, they have done.. )

It could be that "I loose my head" and advance for this one smile

Last edited by tuxd3v (2020-09-13 03:06:58)


Best Regards,
tux

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#24 2020-09-13 10:38:34

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 82  

Re: mnt reform support?

tuxd3v wrote:
zapper wrote:

If it can handle an emulator like desmume and palemoon or two emulators and palemoon, than it would probably be good enough for me till they get a better processor.

I wonder what the most recent, fastest processor type that you can get without having any remote backdoors/blobs is with 4gbs of ram or more obviously and if possible LPDDR4, wink

Anyways thanks for the thoughts.

You welcome,
Indeed maybe mnt reform is the most open of them all( the price seems to go up when you talk of openess.. ) smile

balthazar.space
it seems they will attempt something with RISCV in mind, but they don't rule out a ARM cortex-a7x version..  smile
The project seems ambitious indeed..

Other project, that is not ARM based, but Instead PowerPC based is the www.powerpc-notebook.org
They seem each time closer to get a pcb design, for the Slimbook Eclipse laptop chassis smile
But its a laptop around 1500€( also a bit expensive.. )

Its also a 4 core cpu( SMT 2 - 8 threads ) at 2Ghz, but with some serious amount of Ram, I believe it goes till 32 or 64 GB Ram..
The problem with PowerPC(  to a less extent than RISCV ofcourse,.. because support for RISCV right now almost doesn't exist.... ), is the environment around with supported applications..

At same time Debian has a port for PowerPC 64 bits, and its growing fast..
At the moment, this is my dream of a laptop, I confess! smile

A powerful AMD eGPU( Open Source Drivers ), mechanical keyboard with RGB, tons of memory Ram( even tough its LPDDR3 ) and its dual chanel, and a cpu with 8 threads at 2Ghz, with nvme disks, everything..
But it costs around some 1500€( its a estimated price range, they have done.. )

It could be that "I loose my head" and advance for this one smile

To be honest, amd and intel don't interest me... spectre/meltdown anyone?  tongue
among other  vulnerabilities...

Tell me, how realistic does using qemu on mnt reform look? to load a 64 bit OS like devuan or debian, or idk...

Either way, balthazar.space and mnt reform interest me. smile

Last edited by zapper (2020-09-13 10:39:24)

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#25 2020-09-13 11:36:37

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 958  
Website

Re: mnt reform support?

tuxd3v wrote:

Other project, that is not ARM based, but Instead PowerPC based is the www.powerpc-notebook.org

PowerPC (PPC64?) is old and slow and doesn't really compare with the current 7nm x86_64 AMD processors.

The RISC-V laptop from Balthazar looks interesting but all RISC-V implementations are focused on power efficiency rather than performance so the same would apply to those.

POWER9 (pp64el) and perhaps POWER10 both compete on performance, if not price, and Raptor offer fully free (as in speech) desktops: https://www.raptorcs.com/content/BK1B01/intro.html

But with a TDP in excess of 90W (!) I don't think we'll see any laptops based on that ISA...

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2020-09-13 11:38:43)


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