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#1 2019-11-16 04:16:08

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

systemd of course, is hosted on github-- making it an interesting throwback to the joint microsoft-ibm days; systemd is owned by ibm and hosted on microsoft web servers.

most people i know use projects that are actively developed on github-- for example, i use icewm and leafpad. both github, sadly. i used to have a github account, but i delete it.

the goal here is not to get people to boycott every project hosted on github. i know it hosts projects that almost all of us care about.

still, long term, it seems like letting microsoft dictate who can contribute (and on what terms things are accessed) seems like a losing proposition. ive taken up a task of tracking mainstream free software projects that are hosted there-- with a focus on those that continue to develop.

just to give you an idea of what im talking about: apache server, awesomewm, bodhi, brave, calamares, cinnamon, clojure, cpython, csound, darktable, dejavu fonts, delta3d, docker, elasticsearch, elive, emscripten, endlessos, etherpad, ethereum, exim, fbreader, featherpad, fish shell, flatpak, fontforge, freeciv, freenas, freecad, funtoo, geany, gentoo, gnu radio, gobolinux, godot, handbrake, haxe, hexchat, icewm, identi.ca, illumos, imagemagick, invidio.us, ipython, irssi, julia, jwm, kotlin, kubernetes, latex2html, leafpad, liberapay, lineageos, liteos, linux mint, lm-sensors, lxde, lxqt, lumina, mastodon, manjaro, metasploit, midori, musescore, mypaint, mysql, nextcloud, openpdf, openrc, openssl, opensuse, pale moon, peertube, pencil2d, pentoo, peppermint os, puppy linux, perl, php, pygame, pyglet, pylint, ranger, raspberry pi, reactos, redshift, ruby, retroshare, rust, scipy, scummvm, slitaz, spacefm, sshfs, swift, systemd, tensorflow, textmate, tmux, twitter, ubuntu, unetbootin, void linux, volumio, whonix, yacy

Last edited by freemedia2018 (2019-11-16 04:17:19)


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#2 2019-11-16 18:52:46

fsmithred
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,289  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

I don't trust them, and I assume that they're up to something. That said, I would expect most if not all devs have a local copy of their git repos. As long as that's the case, MS could burn github to the ground and it would be a minor inconvenience to move stuff to another location.

MS can control who has access to github or not, but if they want to dictate who can contribute to a project, they'll need to fork that project and maintain it themselves. I'd be more worried about which projects MS contributes to.

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#3 2019-11-16 19:37:40

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 340  
Website

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

freemedia2018 wrote:

letting microsoft dictate who can contribute (and on what terms things are accessed) seems like a losing proposition.

Moving to another provider is pretty simple and there's plenty of choice so they don't really "control" anything.

I host a few things on GitHub and I'm happy to let M$ pay the bill for serving it up.

fsmithred wrote:

I'd be more worried about which projects MS contributes to.

Do you mean the Linux kernel?

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/

big_smile


Fabricando fit faber

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#4 2019-11-16 20:39:33

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,289  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

fsmithred wrote:

I'd be more worried about which projects MS contributes to.

Do you mean the Linux kernel?

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/

big_smile

Well, I wasn't thinking of that, but I'm worried about the linux foundation anyway...
https://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2 … ation.html

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#5 2019-11-16 23:04:54

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 340  
Website

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

Oh my, interesting read. I wonder what Charles Max Wood did to so offend the Foundation.


Fabricando fit faber

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#6 2019-11-17 03:26:27

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Moving to another provider is pretty simple

it can be, but im not sure it always is. the puppy linux guys dont seem like they can do it without losing a lot.

at least a few were interested, but they all seem resolved that theyre going to be with microsoft whether they like it or not. still, if theyre wrong thats great. i hope they figure it out.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#7 2019-11-17 11:42:07

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 65  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Oh my, interesting read. I wonder what Charles Max Wood did to so offend the Foundation.

Apparently he used the word "whitehouse" when describing trump towers with a maga hat on. Damn racist nazi white supremacist if you ask me!

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#8 2019-11-17 15:30:24

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,289  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

HevyDevy wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Oh my, interesting read. I wonder what Charles Max Wood did to so offend the Foundation.

Apparently he used the word "whitehouse" when describing trump towers with a maga hat on. Damn racist nazi white supremacist if you ask me!

His real crime was to offer to mediate a civil discussion between two parties who were in an online battle. When you defend the target of an SJW attack, you become a target.

Dirk Gently might see everything in this discussion as interconnected and part of a bigger event.

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#9 2019-11-17 16:57:10

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

fsmithred wrote:

Dirk Gently might see everything in this discussion as interconnected and part of a bigger event.

s/Dirk Gently/roy\ schestowitz/ but thats why i like him. also a great series, i love stephen mangan.

there is so much political shifting around in the free software ecosystem, trying to keep track of the pieces really tells a story or two.

for example, this cancel-culture event comes on the heels of the cancellation of the founder of free software himself, based on a number of complete non-facts loosely (fallaciously) supported by less significant actual facts. is it november? yes. is stallman a pisces? yes. but many of the worst claims presented by forbes were indeed fabricated and not true.

on the series, everything is connected to everything else, but here many of the connections are very loose. many of the strongest connections are to some of the same companies trying to stop the rest of us from maintaining control of our software (thus our computers, thus indeed our personal lives) and one of the people attacking stallman recently was, sadly, one of the few people defending debian from a complete takeover by systemd. (on that matter i largely support what mr. jackson has had to say about systemd, though not the petition he signed to remove stallman from the gnu project.) at any rate there are too many meaningful connections to ignore all of them-- and they certainly arent going to be discussed in detail here.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#10 2019-11-18 10:33:59

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 65  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

fsmithred wrote:
HevyDevy wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Oh my, interesting read. I wonder what Charles Max Wood did to so offend the Foundation.

Apparently he used the word "whitehouse" when describing trump towers with a maga hat on. Damn racist nazi white supremacist if you ask me!

His real crime was to offer to mediate a civil discussion between two parties who were in an online battle. When you defend the target of an SJW attack, you become a target.

Dirk Gently might see everything in this discussion as interconnected and part of a bigger event.

Just in case i came across as an sjw i was being sarcastic with my last sentence.

All this happened on twitface didnt it, that is the source of the issue, people posting there lives for all to see in a vain attempt to stroke their own ego and they wonder why they get sjw's freaking out at them.

Not heard of Dirk Gently but reading up on it sounds interesting, cheers.

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#11 2019-11-18 14:56:04

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

by the way, i did a check on 2,028 (practically all) of the apps on f-droid.org, and found 79% of them to have their source on github.

ive also found a 4 to 5% rate of false positives on the delete github wikipage so far. if we double that rate, thats still about 1,400 f-droid apps out of 2,028 that are on github. not great.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#12 2019-11-19 08:03:09

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 156  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

freemedia2018 wrote:

the petition he signed to remove stallman from the gnu project

I think Ian Jackson just don't care about libre software - he care about his own ambitions even if it harms community and freedom. Either he don't understand the fact that SystemD, waylanD, GNOME, Pshshshsaudio, anti-human corporations and their organizations, sjw, proprietary software, etc. are parts of a whole disaster or he want to make everything worse.

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#13 2019-11-19 15:02:24

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

ToxicExMachina wrote:

I think Ian Jackson just don't care about libre software - he care about his own ambitions even if it harms community and freedom. Either he don't understand the fact that SystemD, waylanD, GNOME, Pshshshsaudio, anti-human corporations and their organizations, sjw, proprietary software, etc. are parts of a whole disaster or he want to make everything worse.

he might not care about whats libre-- i dont know, what i do know is that among the people who stayed with debian, he has spent a great deal of effort throwing his veteran status into supporting init freedom.

if im wrong about that, it resolves the two issues at least. init freedom isnt the only freedom, but its one of the more underrated and underrepresented freedoms. steve litt calls the problem "gratuitous interdependency", i call it redix (anti-posix) and alexandre oliva of the fsf is even entertaining the concept of "punix" (a watered down, corporate monopoly posix to undermine the standard.) the catchiest one so far is "osps" (open source proprietary software) which does a very good job of illustrating the direction they are headed in, though i hate to use a term that lends undue credence to "open source" in the first place.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#14 2019-11-20 06:21:24

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 156  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

freemedia2018 wrote:
ToxicExMachina wrote:

I think Ian Jackson just don't care about libre software - he care about his own ambitions even if it harms community and freedom. Either he don't understand the fact that SystemD, waylanD, GNOME, Pshshshsaudio, anti-human corporations and their organizations, sjw, proprietary software, etc. are parts of a whole disaster or he want to make everything worse.

he might not care about whats libre-- i dont know, what i do know is that among the people who stayed with debian, he has spent a great deal of effort throwing his veteran status into supporting init freedom.

Init is just another battlefield. It's important to fight for init freedom but it's not enough. Without understanding the situation and corresponding actions it's pointless. I have emailed a questions to Ian Jackson about his involvement in anti-RMS statement in GNU and his answer very disappointed me not because he confirmed he agree with the statement (I respect freedom of choice) but because of his argumentation.

freemedia2018 wrote:

if im wrong about that, it resolves the two issues at least. init freedom isnt the only freedom, but its one of the more underrated and underrepresented freedoms. steve litt calls the problem "gratuitous interdependency", i call it redix (anti-posix) and alexandre oliva of the fsf is even entertaining the concept of "punix" (a watered down, corporate monopoly posix to undermine the standard.) the catchiest one so far is "osps" (open source proprietary software) which does a very good job of illustrating the direction they are headed in, though i hate to use a term that lends undue credence to "open source" in the first place.

Let's see where is the real problem:

In fact community made libre software environment based on the GNU project. Community killed proprietary UNIX systems with GNU/Linux and improved software. Now anti-human corporations use weakness of some community participants to steal everything. Corporations bribed them, created corporate-style places for them, and now corporations are trying to destroy any community initiative. Corporations created illusion that they help is the only way of development, and now they're turning this illusion into reality. The marker of corporate place for community (concentration camp for community members) is CoC and a vital share of corporate money. This is how "open source" became a title for "This is software for you, our slaves. You will develop it for us and you will hope we will hire you. You will do anything we say. You will say everyone this slavery is our mercy and it's the only good possible in life. You will serve us and you will give us everything you have for a slim chance of better life.".

Of course, it's simplified description and it consider only one side of the problem.

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#15 2019-12-07 13:59:38

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 53  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

ToxicExMachina wrote:

Let's see where is the real problem:

In fact community made libre software environment based on the GNU project. Community killed proprietary UNIX systems with GNU/Linux and improved software. Now anti-human corporations use weakness of some community participants to steal everything. Corporations bribed them, created corporate-style places for them, and now corporations are trying to destroy any community initiative.

just to give you an idea of how much we are on the same page about that, i recently said:

i have a problem with free software being increasingly taken over by large companies that dont care about us and even try to stop us from having our own solutions. first they lend a hand, then they take whats ours with both hands. then they say theyre the ones who really made it anyway.

why does that matter? they think they have a right to control it.


monopolies are able to change free software so it better serves their freedom than ours.

why is that so difficult to prove to many free software advocates, and what is it that stops them from caring?

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#16 2019-12-07 18:15:38

ToxicExMachina
Member
Registered: 2019-03-11
Posts: 156  

Re: is anybody else interested in the # of free sw projects msft controls?

freemedia2018 wrote:
ToxicExMachina wrote:

Let's see where is the real problem:

In fact community made libre software environment based on the GNU project. Community killed proprietary UNIX systems with GNU/Linux and improved software. Now anti-human corporations use weakness of some community participants to steal everything. Corporations bribed them, created corporate-style places for them, and now corporations are trying to destroy any community initiative.

just to give you an idea of how much we are on the same page about that, i recently said:

i have a problem with free software being increasingly taken over by large companies that dont care about us and even try to stop us from having our own solutions. first they lend a hand, then they take whats ours with both hands. then they say theyre the ones who really made it anyway.

why does that matter? they think they have a right to control it.

They don't think about rights or ethics - they are just trying to steal everything. Corporations know they can't do anything to harm freedom when community is strong.

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