Nice, thx @golinux, @fsmithred. This is helpful. I particularly like the return to old debian. Yes, when devuan forked, I was ambivalent. I wasn't that concerned, did systemd break things, not for a user who was only getting used to linux as daily driver, after all this time though, systemd's gone nuts, init just isn't that hard, which I guess they agreed with, cuz then they started getting their fingers into everything. The most recent ones that I noticed were logging (really?) and now birthdays? wow, talk about mixing concerns. Anyhow, I appreciate the banned packages list. Nothing concerning there. I'll be trying my new environment out with an eye toward a stronger move if it works out.