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#1 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-20 13:19:57

venenux is debian-based, distrowatch says debian-based and also devuan-based, but the latest download looks like systemd is the future of venenux.

if anybody gets or has more information, that would be nice to know.

#2 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-18 19:05:40

thats very impressive indeed. it sounds very much like gentoo is still gentoo, not some wayward drifting, frankenstein redhat thing.

#3 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-18 08:00:20

thanks if someone let the post through, its posted.

dutch, thank you as well.

steve has replied, im also interested in yours if you get permission: … 15.en.html

#4 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-18 06:52:10

well i asked, but i included a url and im guessing that too has to be moderated, it hasnt hit the page yet: … 00.en.html

#5 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-16 16:40:45

Dutch_Master wrote:
freemedia2018 wrote:

i would be very interested in hearing more. if and when you do, naturally.

I shall, of course. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it wink

at this point im so curious what he meant, i intend to ask him anyway.

#6 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-16 14:48:33

Dutch_Master wrote:

Which is why I fired an email towards the Gentoo PR people so we can get an "official response" from Gentoo directly. The email has yet to be answered, but given that it's only 2 days and weekend to boot (s'cuse the (bad) pun tongue ) I'm not too bothered about that, for now.

i would be very interested in hearing more. if and when you do, naturally.

#7 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-16 01:16:29

ChuangTzu wrote:

I read steve's post on the mailing list and also noticed he did not provide a link/source of his claim regarding systemd.  A search on gentoos forum did not produce any evidence of his claim.

this is true. and my feeling about "tips" like this is that if the person (steve litt is someone ive admired for years, both his candor and his attitude) is known for good information, then a tip isnt proof, its just something to check out.

so im not calling on people to grab pitchforks and go to the gentoo forums and demand answers, i hoping to find more information soon. one piece of information i might find is someone saying they looked for information and couldnt find any. that counts as a tip as well. if i cant find anything, i may look into how steve got this wrong. considering that i do put some stock in what he says (i never assumed he was infallible, people generally arent) id like to look into this further before i assume his tip is without merit. that was always a possibility though.

EDIT: i dont know exactly what steve meant, though ive learned enough that maybe he has a point: … vs_SystemD

systemd is optional … ager_setup |

but... … lled_in.3F … on_systemd

i dont know if these are the sort of thing hes referring to. if these prove his point, thats good enough. if they dont, its still (imo) worth trying to find out what he was talking about. at a certain point just asking him to clarify or hint further is perfectly reasonable. maybe its reasonable now.

#8 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-15 15:12:21

HevyDevy wrote:

what are you not impressed with?

the repos and the reliability of upgrades.

apt has its limitations, and im not a fan of those. but running apt is pretty reliable. when i do updates on void at any time, i know it can hose the entire system, and the commands are relatively esoteric. ive used lots of package managers. not happily, as im never looking at these just for me, but also for people i would recommend the distro to.

i dont update ANYTHING on void without a backup of Every Single File on the system, so that when it finally hoses basic utils like cp and cat and libraries that leafpad needs, i can at least boot live and copy that stuff back.

is there a better way? i dont doubt it. but its too complex for me to absorb myself into void linux culture, the documentation isnt terribly friendly either, i work with lots of distros. ultimately if the system is too complicated i just move on. nice of them to fix the system issues, but they added a bunch of others, imo. fine if youre a geek and love things like pacman and portage. im trying to prove that gnu/linux is friendly. i guess you need apt for that. maybe im being unfair, and just "dont like rolling releases." thats possible as well.

#9 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-15 13:10:42

not too impressed with void, its one of the distros ive remixed. using that to type this. wouldnt recommend it to anybody.

the one thing i will say for it is that there basically isnt a shred of systemd. good job there.

# find / | grep temd
find: '/run/user/1000/gvfs': Permission denied

#10 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-15 09:15:41

HevyDevy wrote:

easyos has sysv and systemd

oh thats good to know.

#11 Re: Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-14 23:41:46

golinux wrote:

Windows 11?  Couldn't resist.

fair answer.

actually the way windows is going these days, the idea of systemd making it into whats left of "windows" in the future isnt as ridiculous as it really ought to sound.

#12 Off-topic » new encroachments of our least favourite init » 2019-12-14 23:08:03

Replies: 34

steve litt mentioned gentoo today, that wasnt expected.

also this week, puppy linux (one of the simplest ways to avoid systemd, as it is trivial to build your own version-- even from ubuntu, and it never needed systemd before) dropped systemd-udev into testing.

these are two distros known for doing a great job of resisting, which are suddenly showing signs of giving in. are there others that people here know of? ones that dont have systemd yet, but might in the near future?

#13 Re: Devuan Derivatives » Refracta beowulf no-X isos » 2019-12-14 09:25:28

fsmithred wrote:

No X. Plenty of extra command-line software, especially stuff for rescue and repair.

let me know if you ever add command-line software from extra_packages.

#14 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Alternative browser for Devuan/Debian - Brave » 2019-12-13 08:20:29

i already do a lot of distro remixing, and the 32bit remixes work across more machines than the 64bit ones. i have no delusions about this catching on as a common solution, but it works pretty well for me.

either way, i need a 32bit version for my 32bit hardware. there are some pretty nifty netbooks that arent 64bit and the sheer portability makes them worth using as long as they work. there are also some 32bit servers that arent strictly useless.

#15 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Alternative browser for Devuan/Debian - Brave » 2019-12-13 07:55:17

golinux wrote:

Yes he cares:   I also use 32 bit OS.

that doesnt surprise me, i just didnt feel up to date on the matter. nice to know he still feels that way.

You can vet the code of course.

true, but:

1. sourceforge (under previous owners, i think theyre alright now to be honest) used to add malware and spyware to downloads, so there is a precedent for bad actors

2. microsoft is a pretty uniquely bad actor

3. while i certainly believe that floss is more secure than microsoft products which contains deliberate backdoors already, that hasnt stopped infamous problems like heartbleed and shellshock-- even with code being vetted by the best people we have.

its good to deal with the source of problems, as well as the aftermath/results. a little preventative medicine where it makes the most sense.

also helping sustain their monopoly is going to bite us in the backside sooner or later.

Sure it's creepy that ms is in charge of github but that's not really fair to judge devs who suffer from inertia and stay put there.

saying a bad idea is a bad idea doesnt seem to me like an accusation or anything unfair in this instance. relatively speaking, brave isnt that old a project, either.

you have a "privacy-centric" browser hosted on a platform known to spy on users, by a company known to add backdoors to its own products, which has spent decades systematically trying to destroy free software. what part of this paragraph is untrue, or unfair?

#16 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Alternative browser for Devuan/Debian - Brave » 2019-12-13 07:30:51

no solution for 32 bit.

a lot of people want x86 to just die already for freedom reasons, for years my take on that is to support 32 bit, which works on both older 32 bit hardware and practically every piece of hardware-spying, more-compromised 64 bit x86 hardware.

i use 64 bit hardware of course, but not all of it 64 bit and none of it runs a 64 bit os. the "hard limitations" of 32 bit are a bit exaggerated, there are ways around many of them.

fsmithred used to care about 32 bit (he likely still does, i havent asked) and roy from techrights still uses it as well.

also the idea of using a browser from github is a bit creepy, i consider everything on github controlled by microsoft. that problem is going to get worse before it gets better.

#17 Re: Off-topic » ill just use the mailing list » 2019-12-12 21:45:11

golinux wrote:

That is a moderated list.  I just let you in.


#18 Re: Off-topic » ill just use the mailing list » 2019-12-12 20:21:35

at any rate, it take hours or more for my emails to end up "lurker" and im not sure theyre all going through at all. i sent one reply that seems to be missing, while other replies to the same thread have shown up, so ill just post it here:

>  Let me just kindly ask you to restrict the habit of numbering
things starting from 0 to programming in C (and derived languages). In
these languages it is a trick to map array indexes to address
arithmetic; out of this scope it makes no sense.

the scope it makes sense in is that the first four were already numbered 0 to 3 before i had any say in them. the fifth, if numbered consecutively, will have to be freedom 4. if i number it freedom 5, and put it up to the rest of the list, people will say "what happened to freedom 4?" i dont think thats better.

likewise, if i take the great liberty of renumbering all the freedoms, when people hear of "freedom 0" they will ask whatever happened to freedom 0? i thing the best course of action by far is to follow the numbering convention already in place and retain compatibility.

#19 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Question about XDG menus » 2019-12-11 19:02:43

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

this is not possible with icewm or windowmaker, AFAICT.

icewm can be kept up to date, but i think it has to be restarted then (with x and your applications still running.)

i have used openbox but i dont know exactly what "on the fly" means in this context, so i dont know if icemw is capable of the same. it can be triggered after apt installs new programs.

#20 Re: Off-topic » ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom... » 2019-12-11 01:26:48

No need to pick up your marbles and go home.  Really.  You won't find a more receptive audience than you will here.  smile

then ill keep trying for now.

golinux wrote:

I have beat that drum many times on devuan channels.  Mostly it falls on deaf ears and that is frustrating yet I keep trying.

ill try not to take it personally.

there are always too few people who will roll up their sleeves and commit.  It is also true that we each have our unique talents.

one of the reasons i blather is that im usually trying to think of a way to do something impossible-- like get several distros running with zero work. sometimes there is just no substitute for rolling sleeves up but one of the key motivations for a geek is to find a better way. without that urge, computers and the internet wouldnt exist.

I'm not clear on exactly how you would implement the ideas/protections that we have discussed in some detail.  If we agree that the 5 "Pillars" of GNU-Linux are the only way to protect truly free software what is the plan to ensure that it becomes the defacto standard?

there is a plan of sorts. its an ongoing, do-a-little, check status, do-a-little more kind of thing. i wont outline it all (youre welcome) but if it wasnt already clear, im always happy to talk about it. it gets more refined (practical) that way.

none of this perfectly fits devuan because i am always looking for a holistic solution for every distro and every single user, including people who dont use it.

its not one-size-fits all, that doesnt exist and creates disasters like systemd.

devuan has many missions--

1. create a distro
2. support a distro
3. promote freedom
4. fix debian
5. beat systemd, which is a weapon (imo) designed to destroy posix (save posix)

the fifth freedom is about 3 / 4 / 5, because we are promoting freedom in the hope that will fix debian and beat systemd.

stallman is out of the fsf, as some of us predicted. he probably cant change the four freedoms now-- nor would he. for better or worse (typically better) hes very set in his ways. his authority wont assist this, it wont give us something we can point to and say "because stallman said."

before we throw out the idea, its good to look for what voices would count. for lots of reasons, jaromil liking the idea counts for a heck of a lot. he likes the idea, so theres that.

what we want is for enough people to like the idea, to care about the principle. for it to appeal to their philosophy.

this fifth freedom is just a step along the way, i think it can be very powerful. i LIKE init freedom, i think this can be represent init freedom and even bolster it considerably. its difficult for many to care about init, systemd isnt an init anymore, its a replacement os (steve litt said something to that effect, frankly so did poettering so its not a crazy thing for us to say about systemd.)

but the freedom says almost as much as "the freedom to change" but it still says more.

short version: we go find more people and what they think of it, we find as much approval for the idea as possible.

long version: there is more to it than that, but every journey starts with a single step.

i try to go where i can help. if i can help here, thats great. id like devuan to succeed. practically anybody and everybody fighting systemd, id like them to succeed.

“for Microsoft to win, the customer must lose.”

thats the attitude of the people we are up against. they need to defeat everybody else to win. we dont need to do that. we can all succeed, and they will still lose at destroying us. but we know thats their goal.

ours, i think, is to make that goal as clear to as many people as possible, i thought the pillars idea might help, only because i didnt think anybody could write a fifth freedom that really worked. i think we have one.

if i write too much, feel free to skim or skip to the end. dont go back unless its out of curiosity, or you want to.

#21 Off-topic » ill just use the mailing list » 2019-12-10 23:49:37

Replies: 5

someday maybe theyll fix this forum.

in about two seconds, someones going to tell you that "there is no problem."

theyre right, of course. no problem, at all. ive seen the list-- and ill take it over this. AGAIN.

its about my "hate," of course.

thats what they told me last time. funny, thats what torvalds said, too. look it up, its pretty classic.

#22 Re: Off-topic » ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom... » 2019-12-10 23:13:10

golinux wrote:

Plenty of bugs to choose from.  We know they exist but it's easier to talk.

the way i contribute to things is to take stock of what i have to offer and look around for opportunities to help using my actual talents. ive tried explaining what i have to offer before, but one or two people were more interested in shooting it down. ive come back to look again, but out comes the idea again that im not doing anything. ive been quite busy this week, actually.

whip cracks just dont do it for me-- thats not what im into. i prefer to think about what im doing, before each stage of acting. that way when im doing, i have some idea of what im doing. if other people already know, then good for them. if you can do good without knowing what youre doing, thats also great. i applaud it.

one of my favourite stories, from the tao of pooh, is about a general who could make use of anybodys talents. his strength was in figuring out exactly what tasks they were best for. im actually very good at finding things i can do, but not everybody is always interested. so be it, but that doesnt obligate me to do random tasks unrelated to the skills i have. not every coding task is easily transferable to another, for example.

anyway, the general was made aware of a master thief, whom he sent to steal a hairpin from a rival generals tent. the story goes on but the message sent was that the thief would eventually return for the generals head, and they were able to convince the general to leave them alone after that. now, you have a list of things youd like help with, but you dont seem interested in where my talents lay. no problem, as long as you dont ask me to do anything.

i come here to learn, i learn so i can do things, i learn many things by talking with people. by suggesting i stop talking to do some random chore you are interrupting my work. if thats the best use you can make use of my talents, to imply im not using them, i would simply say that you dont know me yet-- you might not ever. but thats not my problem, and i wont take the blame for it. i already know that no matter how much i do for devuan, youre not going to make anything easy. but youre really not helping me by making it harder-going.

trust me on this-- it was enough trouble i was going to already, and if its too much trouble ill find a work environment where i can get more done-- ive got several of those workplaces, because i do a lot.

#23 Re: Off-topic » ladies, gentlemen and whomever else: your fifth freedom... » 2019-12-10 21:34:23

siva wrote:

I'm of the belief that this probably won't happen, but only because there is so much pushback from the BSDs and Slack/Gentoo.

On the other hand, I am very concerned about SOIC hardware fucking over the open-source ecosystem by design.

ive got lots of ideas about how to push back against this stuff, but not enough venues to talk about them.

its easier to find venues to talk about the problem than to talk about solutions. and im very grateful that there are venues to talk about the problem, as that really is where solutions begin. it DOES have to turn into action eventually, or (obviously) its just talk. for my part, ive spent plenty of time "doing."

but some of this "doing" is the sort that ultimately proves we have to "do" some things together, which means we either need to bow to a coordinator who has a positively working idea-- or we need to find a way to coordinate amongst ourselves. thats no easy trick, and this problem we fight is nothing that simple either. they pretend its simple, but its been 5 years. its not like we havent done anything in those years. if you find a piece of something you can fix, great. but if nobody knows it exists, that sadly wont help much.

#25 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2019-12-10 07:26:10

golinux wrote:

all this talk is not going to save GNU-Linux.   Only DOING can accomplish that.

we do need a plan of some kind though.

if you want to see what putting an operating system without a plan is like, ask lennart. hes the king of just doing, and it shows. im aware that people spend too many years planning. we dont need years of planning, we need a week or two-- and  a good idea.

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