#devuan

09:03:20 <blastwave> how does one setup the init to not boot to a graphical desktop? I just want a console only with full networking and am trying to remove Intel Connection manager from my life which borks up the network config

09:04:56 <fsmithred> blastwave, easiest way is to install sysv-rc-conf, run it in a terminal, un-check your display manager in runlevel 2.

09:05:42 <Hydragyrum> and then optionally add it to runlevel 3 or 4 or whatever

09:05:42 <blastwave> hold on a sec ... --> update-rc.d <display manager> remove <-- do that ??

09:06:08 <Hydragyrum> replacing the <display manager> with the name of whichever you use (gdm, sddm, etc.)

09:06:29 <blastwave> well to be honest I am okay with the LXDE( or QT or whatever ) but the connman is a real bugger that screws over my network config and it goes full DHCP and then the ip address of the machine is wrong

09:07:30 <fsmithred> yeah, if you configure /etc/network/interfaces, you should not use any network manager.

09:07:40 <blastwave> can I simply remove ( dpkg --purge ?? ) the connman trash ? I thought that was a systemD disaster component and I would not see these things on devuan

09:08:33 <fsmithred> network-manager is the gnome thing, and that's closer to systemd

09:08:47 <blastwave> well I have a machine that runs chimera just great with a desktop but the netowrk, well I have to get into a terminal and redo the net config manually everytime

09:09:14 <blastwave> maybe I can scrap the desktop entirely to fix this

09:09:39 <fsmithred> just get rid of connman, or turn it off as described above

09:10:09 <blastwave> really, I need the graphical dev stuff but I don't need the desktop at all. This box will run in a datacenter and I will rarely, if ever, need a desktop.

09:10:27 <blastwave> "just get rid of connman" <-- I like this idea

09:11:22 <Hydragyrum> sudo apt purge connman and then it'll be gone...

09:11:22 <gnarface> debian enforces a convention where all the build-time headers are in packages with the suffix "-dev" in their name

09:11:39 <gnarface> you can usually install those packages separately from the rest of them

09:12:46 <blastwave> yes, I like that. However during install ( yesterday ) I did select the LXQt( LXDE ? ) desktop and then once the machine rebooted after install the network config was screwed

09:12:49 <Hydragyrum> by graphical dev stuff you you mean as in the graphical programs i.e. qtcreator or the headers and libs as in libqt5-dev

09:12:55 <gnarface> you might still want some of the xorg stuff suffixed "-libs" so you can still launch graphical programs over ssh without running xorg

09:13:37 <Hydragyrum> for a machine like that you generally would want to uncheck desktop in the install process and then install whatever graphical things you need

09:13:50 <blastwave> Hydragyrum: less than that. I want libxcb and a few other things and not much. Maybe SDL2 at some point but I have some old old code to port and X11 stuff is all I really need. Along with ( gasp ) CDE stuff

09:14:10 <gnarface> yea, you should do a bare install and only install the packages you want and their immediate dependencies

09:14:28 <gnarface> disable automatically including "recommends" by config file or command-line option

09:14:39 <blastwave> well that sidesteps the real issue entirely : connman is a disaster and it is in there and it arrived and it messes up the net config

09:15:04 <gnarface> oh, yea you're right about that but i can't help you fix that part, i'd also advocate just throwing it overboard like fsmithred suggested

09:15:29 <Hydragyrum> I think there's an option in apt config to blacklist packages? do that maybe ;)

09:15:30 <blastwave> k .. let me see if I can dpkg --purge that nasty thing out of my life

09:15:34 <gnarface> it's not a value add and most stuff that includes it doesn't actually require it to run

09:17:58 <Hydragyrum> apt-mark hold with it uninstalled will forcibly prevent it from being installed unless you give a yes or the like

09:18:15 <blastwave> " why did you install connman? " <-- I did not. The installer did it

09:18:21 <fsmithred> it gets installed if you choose a desktop environment from the installer

09:18:36 <fsmithred> you would do better to start with a minimal system and add what you need

09:18:41 <blastwave> yeh ... it gets hammered into my life and then messes up my life

09:19:09 <blastwave> speaking of which I need to walk down a hallway and get a console now .. setup ip manually and then maybe I can ssh back in

09:19:46 <fsmithred> I think you can do it remotely if you set everything up and string some commands so they all run after you get cut off

09:20:33 <gnarface> i wouldn't bother installing the gui login manager on any machine i didn't have to share with someone else either

09:28:33 <blastwave> okay so I lost network access and had to do the manual "ip foo" and "ip route" and lost my /etc/resolv.conf also by stopping connman

09:28:42 <blastwave> can connman be considered a virus or malware ?

09:29:37 <blastwave> yep .. I ssh back in and /etc/resolv.conf has been destroyed

09:30:54 <fsmithred> connman is just another network manager. They all have their idiosyncracies and on a bad they they suck balls.

09:31:14 <ksx4system> blastwave, not malware but probably abandonware by now

09:32:07 <blastwave> after doing the dance down the hallway to get a console and setup ip again then I did dpkg --purge connman which says "cmst depends on connman"

09:32:21 <gnarface> the other network managers all do the same crap afaik, clobber /etc/resolv.conf and choke on /etc/network/interfaces

09:32:33 <blastwave> so I nuked " dpkg --purge cmst " and then killed connman " dpkg --purge connman"

09:32:45 <ksx4system> blastwave, generally network managers will mess with your resolv.conf

09:32:54 <blastwave> OH gawd will I have a network after a reboot ??

09:33:22 <blastwave> sorry .. I need more than single letter variables :)

09:33:26 <ksx4system> blastwave, read logs of what commands you executed before - answer most likely lies there

09:33:45 <gnarface> i'd also uninstall the dhcp client though first

09:33:46 <fsmithred> where you would set up a static ip address that gets assigned when you boot the computer

09:34:03 <blastwave> oh yes of course I have /etc/network/interfaces which was setup by the installer

09:34:17 <blastwave> nice installer by the way ! woo hoo remote ssh install is a joy

09:35:11 <fsmithred> and some lines below that to define address... ?

09:35:24 <blastwave> yep all tyhe goodness from the installer is still there

09:37:53 <blastwave> okay good news ... it rebooted fine and the network is now sane

09:37:55 <gnarface> well, either one should work but they don't both always work at boot

09:38:06 <blastwave> oops /etc/resolv.conf: No such file or directory

09:39:31 <blastwave> maybe I need to stick in an init script somewhere to ensure that file gets created at boot init 2 or something

09:39:47 <gnarface> it can go into the /etc/network/interfaces file too if you install the resolvconf package

09:40:38 <gnarface> if you don't have wpasupplicant or a dhcp client or any network managers there shouldn't be anything left that will overwrite it though

09:40:43 <blastwave> I generally have /etc/network/interfaces with the nameservers from the config setup by the installer and that usually "just works"(tm)

09:41:05 <blastwave> wpasupplicant ? oh that needs to be nuked out of existence

09:41:12 <gnarface> yea the dns-nameservers, dns-search stuff? those are used by resolvconf

09:41:47 <gnarface> you don't need that unless you have wireless anyway

09:42:10 <blastwave> there is no wireless in the building anymore

09:42:38 <blastwave> okay so why is my resolv.conf getting nuked at reboot .. let me ponder that

09:42:40 <fsmithred> could probably get rid of wireless-tools if that doesn't automatically go

09:43:22 <gnarface> are the dns-* lines in your config file being obeyed?

09:43:38 <blastwave> dpkg --purge wireless-tools and then wireless-regdb and iw

09:45:22 <gnarface> no, like i said you only need it if you want the system to recognize the dns-* lines in your /etc/network/interfaces file

09:45:46 <gnarface> but you will need it *or* a /etc/resolf.conf file note this file is not to be confused with the resolvconf package

09:45:47 <blastwave> well I need /etc/resolv.conf to 04not be destroyed

09:46:01 <gnarface> i'm not sure if resolvconf is doing that or not it was a hypothesis

09:46:26 <blastwave> I don't know either ... I say reboot and lets see if I get a netowrk and resolv.conf again

09:46:46 <blastwave> it is a fast booter so .. in a moment I will know

09:46:48 <gnarface> well i doubt it will come back automatically if everything is set up how you want it, just to be clear

09:47:01 <gnarface> you'd still have to put it back manually once

09:47:24 <blastwave> I have the opinion that any decent sane UNIX or Linux machine will never ever mess with my netowrk config ever

09:47:40 <blastwave> setup network and then expect it to stay in place

09:48:44 <ksx4system> blastwave, Devuan is not going to mess with your network settings if you READ WHAT IS ON YOUR SCREEN and don't install unnecessary software blindly

09:48:48 <blastwave> excellent .. just needed to destroy/nuke a few packages

09:50:11 <gnarface> yea, for future installs i really recommend you select expert mode and when you get to the tasksel page, uncheck all boxes

09:50:16 <blastwave> ksx4system: dude ... I did the network config during install with the installer and selected a desktop frontend LXDE or similar. The result was a borked network config. That is plain jane wrong. You have no argument that says the network config from the installer should/would/can be wrecked afterwards

09:50:58 <blastwave> lets not get confused here. it is Intel Connman that wrecked my life

09:51:20 <blastwave> always check ssh // yep .. need that when the machine is in a computer datacenter

09:51:26 <gnarface> well, yea you probably actually want ssh and standard system utilities ... but if the "Desktop" one hadn't been checked, none of this crap would have been installed

09:51:34 <blastwave> anyways .. thank you for the help .. this sorted out the messz

09:52:02 <blastwave> to be fair ... the desktop will rarely ever be used

09:52:28 <ksx4system> blastwave, bad idea to install GUI on a server

09:53:14 <blastwave> gee ... I never worked with a server before ... 04really??

09:53:22 <bb|hcb> blastwave: maybe that's OT, but always get a machine with IPMI, iDRAC, whatever else they name it, before putting it in the DC - you will spare some travel

09:53:48 <blastwave> generally I work with production class systems and not pc trash

09:54:36 <blastwave> so yeah .. there is always full systems and hardwar3e control separate from the machine itself .. or part of the machine. Think Oracle/Fujitsu big old sparc servers and IBM Power servers etc etc

09:55:18 <blastwave> pc trash is just trash. maybe flashing RGB lights on the memory will make it faster and better ? :)

09:55:48 <blastwave> okay ... moving onwards .. I will now deal with how to port old CDE/X11 code

09:56:00 <blastwave> also I will toss money at the Devuan project from here on in

09:56:19 <blastwave> took me a little longer to get away from Debian and RHEL but I got here

09:56:54 <ksx4system> blastwave, from 2021 perspective consumer grade PC hardware is not trash if you know how to use it and understand its purpose (which you clearly *don't* get)

09:56:59 <blastwave> please bear in mind that I still have dark SuperDome HP servers and Sun SPARC and IBM z/OS mainframes in my life

10:00:35 <ksx4system> blastwave, there's entirely different class of devices made for gaming ;)

10:10:47 <onefang> Alas for my super desktop Ryzen Threadripper, I couldn't get away from RGBling RAM, nor turn it off since it requires Windows to do that every boot time. Pffft

10:11:51 <ksx4system> onefang, this is sad af :( worst case scenario RGB features should be available to set manually in BIOS

10:12:13 <ksx4system> best case scenario open source code should be published lol

10:20:02 * blastwave begins to sing ... Daisey Daisey .. I'm half crazy over my love for you ...

10:35:32 * onefang installs Devuan on HAL 9000, thus bringing it back on topic.

10:36:18 <golinux> Sunday night crazies out on force. Good for OT

10:39:04 * blastwave looks at watch .. wow .. it is sunday .. I thought it was Friday

10:39:54 <blastwave> if anyone cares ( way way OT ) I have a chan #blastwave and am live streaming some code work on httpd RC for OpenSSL 3.0.0

10:58:27 <mason> FWIW, in the interests of absolute correctness: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=E7WQ1tdxSqI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_Bell#History

10:59:24 <Xenguy> And as we all know by now... completeness matters

13:15:18 <gnarface> hi maxz, if you have questions just ask them and wait

13:15:28 <gnarface> it's a slow channel but greetings are not required

15:38:27 <peterrooney> I'm having a spot of trouble getting Xorg going on "AMD Ryzen 7 5700G with Radeon Graphics"

15:56:38 <gnarface> and don't forget firmware-amd-graphics is in non-free

16:06:28 <peterrooney> gnarface: a disturbing possibility. what did AMD do to necessitate a new kernel?

16:11:39 <onefang> For my AMD Radeon RX 5600 XT using the beowulf-backports kernel and and drivers works.

16:18:47 <peterrooney> i've been headdesk on this for four hours. not sure I'm even asking the right questions.

16:20:55 <Le_Coyote> As for the "whad did they do wrong", it happens. For some reason, after I upgraded my nvidia proprietary drivers last time, my laptop wouldn't wake from suspend (to ram). Switched to nouveau, and no further issues.

16:37:49 <peterrooney> The last informational message I get before Fatal is, "drm report modesetting isn't supported." but searching on that has led me nowhere, except 'upgrading to a 4.5 kernel fixed it' - beowulf is 4.19, so that's not it.

16:39:27 <Le_Coyote> Well, regressions happen, but bisecting is a pita

17:19:30 <gnarface> peterrooney: i dunno really to be honest but it could as easily been something to do with either the ryzen or the radeon part

17:20:10 <gnarface> drm modesetting error suggests the radeon part

17:20:29 <gnarface> but could be something as simple as xorg auto-detection failing to load the amdgpu driver

17:21:49 <gnarface> nvidia cards of similar and even earlier generations won't work with that 4.19 kernel either

17:23:31 <gnarface> that error could easily be consistent with missing firmware or loading the wrong driver (which in turn is frequently a red herring for missing firmware)

17:28:55 <peterrooney> gnarface: I've loaded /every/ firmware to no effect. i suppose my next step is locating the beowulf -> chimera upgrade instructions.

17:30:19 <gnarface> i would really try the beowulf backports kernel & firmwares first

17:40:17 <onefang> You could try a live chimeara ISO on that machine first.

19:54:28 <jemadux> i wanna install devuan in my mom's laptop .. which one is the testing release and which one is the stable one ?

19:56:19 <gnarface> beowulf is the stable one for now, but the testing one (chimera) might be stable pretty soon

20:00:01 <gnarface> there might be test images around somewhere, but normally to install testing you'd upgrade from stable

20:00:43 <gnarface> actually though... it looks as though there's some beta images up already: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_chimaera/

20:00:55 <onefang> The usual sources of Devuan ISOs have chimaera ISO to.

20:15:57 <fsmithred> new version of eudev is now in chimaera. I think that's the last one, so the only thing left is documentation.

20:51:06 <ham5urg> My laptop freezes way to often with Chimaera, what is a good approach to check why? Kern.log?

21:05:50 <ham5urg> debdog, yes, I installed memtest, when I try to boot into memtest, from Grub, th e laptop hangs. Meh

21:06:46 <ham5urg> jemadux, I installed it onto Efi-Server and Laptops

21:10:34 <ham5urg> Is there a devuan ISO with memtest I could use?

21:11:08 <fsmithred> some intel processors need extra boot options.

21:12:24 <fsmithred> I've got one *lake (can't remember the right name) that needs something like intel.pstate=1 or else it randomly freezes

21:28:35 <ham5urg> Devuan Minimal ISO Memory test tells: Version too old for 32-bit boot

21:30:42 <hemimaniac> fsmithred, you thinking of the intel Westlake?

21:31:44 <fsmithred> ham5urg, I've seen that problem. The solution is to download the memtest live-iso from the official memtest website

21:32:03 <fsmithred> there's no stand-alone app that works on newer machines

21:34:36 <fsmithred> memtest.org has some choices - iso, binary or source

21:35:30 <fsmithred> nm, memtest.org has stuff that's 8 years old. Same as repo.

21:41:34 <fsmithred> there's memtester in the repo. That runs inside your running linux system

21:42:13 <fsmithred> but that would be best on a very minimal system, since it can't test the mem that I'm currently using for the desktop.

22:35:23 <n4dir> did you test with a different user and a different GUI if the system freezes too?

22:35:35 <ham5urg> Should I boot via Usb-Stick after next freeze and check the logs?

22:35:50 <n4dir> also: might it be related to a certain application?

22:36:20 <ham5urg> n4dir, no. I tested it not with different user.

22:37:05 <n4dir> to me, on usually bad hardware, freezes usually happen due to firefox. testuser and a differnt GUI won't hurt for troubleshooting purposes

22:38:09 <ham5urg> n4dir, I tried to find a pattern but could not say. What is always bad, when it stays with screensaver-blank overnight. 100% it won't get back.

22:38:50 <ham5urg> But it freezes sometimes with browser, with editor and at login

22:38:52 <n4dir> yeah, i also couldn't figure it out. firefox seems to have been the culprit, but it was not really proven

22:40:11 <ham5urg> Maybe to switch to Beowulf is a solution but I would like to try to find the problem. Maybe it helps

23:02:32 <gnarface> ham5urg: try adding -l to the acpid command-line options in /etc/default/acpid

23:04:02 <gnarface> ham5urg: though i've had similar issues on various hardware and i suspect if you disable dpms and system sleep it will be fine

23:05:42 <gnarface> could be a lot of stuff based on only this evidence

23:12:38 <nepsis> I know I am preaching to the choir here, but am I the only one who's astounded that in the discussions about the problems systemd-homed would bring some people seem to believe that creating a "guest" account that you need to log into to actually unlock you home space and then log in as yourself is a good idea?

23:13:53 <nepsis> I just can't believe of all the problems we could be solving, home spaces was one of them

23:14:29 <nepsis> Careful when googling then, because it may raise your blood pressure

23:14:54 <fsmithred> and any talk about it is better off in #devuan-offtopic. We like to reserve this channel for support questions.

23:18:31 <nepsis> In a separate issue: Has anyone here set up a udev/mdev/*dev free system before? I am researching possible avenues, just for fun

23:29:51 <fsmithred> and someone was asking about setting up all static devs as needed. That was a week or two ago.

23:30:20 <fsmithred> I don't know if it actually happened, but it probably did.

23:38:08 <fsmithred> nepsis, I believe the openbox isos have vdev: https://www.gnuinos.org/Beowulf/

23:38:42 <fsmithred> here's aitor's post on mailing list about it: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20210110.194529.503f1b9d.en.html

23:39:38 <nepsis> Cool, I will boot it up and see how it works, thank you!

23:42:16 <fsmithred> those look like newer isos than the ones he mentioned in January.

23:53:50 <nepsis> Well, it was just a for-fun project kind of thing, so a few pointers in the right direction were all I was after :)

02:39:28 <Hydragyrum> I remember when udev/mdev/etc. weren't a thing and everything worked fine back then lol

02:49:06 <lts> https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2021-08-24-eudev-retirement.html

03:24:57 <user____> I assume this one will light up like an xmas tree on code which shimmers vars from list to string and such? No? http://www.xdobry.de/ttclcheck/

03:25:04 <systemdlete> fsmithred: Any updates to chimaera I can try?

03:26:42 <systemdlete> fsmithred: Any word when chimaera might be released? I'm trying to plan ahead and it would be helpful to know.

03:26:45 <fsmithred> systemdlete, if you can figure out why lightdm won't respect locale settings in my refracta chimaera beta isos, I'd be grateful.

03:27:00 <fsmithred> soon as we finish writing the release notes, I think.

03:27:13 <systemdlete> hmmm... never dealt with that before, but I can try I suppose. Learning opp for me

03:27:32 <fsmithred> if you need chimaera now, go for it. It's ready.

03:27:33 <systemdlete> sounds like we are close then. Maybe a couple months it sounds like?

03:28:04 <systemdlete> fsmithred: Last I tried your ISO, I had problems. That's why I asked if you have updated those recently.

03:28:12 <fsmithred> fuck no. Better not be months. Should be days or maybe a week or two at most. Assuming we didn't screw something up.

03:29:33 <fsmithred> xfce isos are a couple days old: https://get.refracta.org/files/testing/

03:30:07 <systemdlete> So refracta will be out before devuan and star?

03:30:19 <fsmithred> discussion: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=4500

03:30:52 <fsmithred> I think devuan will be official before refracta.

03:30:53 <systemdlete> not sure. I haven't seen any messages by email, but maybe they don't do that

03:36:56 <systemdlete> looking at their download site, it looks like they are still on Spock (Beowulf?)

03:37:46 <systemdlete> It's ok, fsmithred, I'm not really in any rush. I want to upgrade an ascii VM, but why waste my time if chimaera is soon?

03:42:43 <fsmithred> if you're going to upgade a VM to chimaera, there's no reason to wait for the installer isos or the release notes.

03:47:34 * Hydragyrum is waiting for daedalus so he can upgrade from chimaera

03:49:15 <n4dir> ha. didn't get that. I gave up on tilda for a few years, mainly to use a more ressource-friendly terminal

03:49:48 <fsmithred> ok, good. The damned iso keeps growing. It will no longer fit on a 1GB usb stick.

03:50:34 <n4dir> i don't recall that well what was/is included on refracta. Sure lots i wouldn't need. Mainly the gui stuff

03:50:42 <Hydragyrum> tbh as long as there's a minimal or the like installer iso that will fit on a 700mb cd, the other ones are fine to be big, no?

03:51:08 <n4dir> probably. I don't think it is easily possible to get a 1 Gig stick anymore.

03:51:25 <Hydragyrum> the smallest I have is a 2gb and I don't know why I still have it

03:51:36 <Hydragyrum> haven't seen smaller than 8gb for sale in a long time

03:51:54 <n4dir> same here. They start to get really shitty, old sticks, and new ones probably have way more

03:53:20 <fsmithred> I have a PNY that's 256mb. It holds rEFInd bootloader.

03:56:59 <peterrooney> Current situation: updated to chimera to get X to start (beowulf fails for Ryzen 7 5700G), but... Only starts using fbdev driver, and /only/ resolution available according to randr is 1024x768, on either HDMI and Displayport outputs.

03:57:44 <peterrooney> I am concerned that I may have to find a dedicated graphics card as opposed to using the integrated graphics.

04:02:23 <peterrooney> fsmithred: no. not yet. i did that yesterday on beowulf, didn't cross my mind today. Trying now.

04:04:04 <peterrooney> f*%# yeah that works. I been trying xorg.conf generation like it's 2002.

04:05:46 <fsmithred> I have a script called 'display-savior' which would remind you for the old xf86config script. (I think that's not the right name)

04:06:04 <peterrooney> fsmithred: this is why i try to be nice to people who are asking "basic" questions. they may be, like me now, in sleep dep mode.

04:06:52 <peterrooney> there's no way the "Xorg -configure" 's that I ran and edited could have possibly worked without the correct firmware.

04:08:17 <fsmithred> yeah, and I know it's installed in the desktop-live, and I know you said that iso booted.

04:08:41 <fsmithred> and you're about the 50th person I've seen run into that issue.

04:10:28 <peterrooney> fsmithred: wow, seems like a strong candidate for adding a document somewhere, but where?

04:15:00 <fsmithred> I just added a note about it to the pad we are using to make the release notes.

04:30:34 <fsmithred> now, if we could only get people to read the relase notes...

04:37:12 * fsmithred sticks a gold start to Hydragyrum's monitor.

04:37:52 <Hydragyrum> starting is the one thing my computer has trouble with

04:38:13 <Hydragyrum> the EFI firmware's wonky and keeps deciding my boot entry doesn't exist

04:39:11 <fsmithred> mine lets me change the boot order, but that setting does not survive a reboot.

04:39:40 <Hydragyrum> so then I need to boot a usb and load my grub configfile

04:40:47 <fsmithred> is it an old thinkpad? Mine is pretty weird.

04:41:35 <fsmithred> I failed to boot a live-usb on a new ideapad

04:42:53 <Hydragyrum> all my USBs work fine with EFI boot at least, so I just boot one with grub and use it to load my normal configfile, boot and remove the usb