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#1 Re: News & Announcements » Devuan 2.0 ASCII Beta is here! » 2018-03-02 22:28:56

I've just no idea why you'd need to run an X11 file manager as root?  Can't see how it would effect "workflow", can't see the scenario where "work" involves being in a file manager as root...  what are you doing?

This is the same bogus argument presented by the typical foaming at the mouth "I MUST run X11 as root and need to login via GDM" bollocks...  you and I have seen this rubbish countless times.

#2 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » alternative to mate-power-manager for ascii? [SOLVED] » 2018-03-02 22:23:03

greenjeans wrote:

The mate power manager is a disgrace, everything is grayed out, none of the functions really work, I recommended it be dumped from the repo months ago.

Mate has really disappointed me in the last year, not only are longstanding bugs still not fixed, there are regressions now that are a big PITA. It's gotten way worse as they have progressed to GTK3, it's almost as bad as Gnome now, and with good reason as they are no longer anything like a fork of gnome 2, they are simply falling into line with the new gnome glitchware. It's embarassing really, windows 7 is more stable.

As I once said (over 5 years ago), Mate was a project started with Ubuntu "consumers" in mind. It was entirely founded on Ubuntu consumers making a lot of noise about "ubuntu classic" being discontinued (look it up).  It was never a "safe bet", it was always going to become what it has become today.

gnome was always a turd, it just got smellier as time went on...

gnome project will always embrace "technologies" such as polkit, dconf, mono and systemd.  For anyone not interested in technologies such as systemd, gnome always has been and always will be bad place to be.  Mate is just a gnome 2.x fork that's well past it's sell by date.

Xfce is better.  It has it's flaws, but still better - for now.  how long that will last who can say?

While "desktops" become more Linux centric and more reliant on "Linux proprietary" technology, that can only be a bad thing for free *nix and Linux distributions which do not use systemd.  This actually makes desktops, by their very nature, just a bad thing for anyone wanting to avoid all of the usual crap listed above (plus other cruft such as avahi and pulseaudio).

(I use OpenBSD exclusively.  I avoid desktops, except Xfce (for now), I don't used it (I use fluxbox), but tend to keep it installed for other users.)

#3 Re: News & Announcements » Devuan 2.0 ASCII Beta is here! » 2018-03-02 21:46:22

There is a simple solition to all of your gksu and policykit problems:  stop running X11 graphical shit as root...

$ man sudo
$ man su

#4 Re: Installation » (SOLVED)Minimal, vanilla Devuan i3 Jessie, Aspire One 725 wifi & sound » 2018-02-12 14:37:13

For future reference - there was a kernel upgrade (3.16.0-4-amd64 to 3.16.0-5-amd64) at the same time as your installation of the broadcom-sta / wl driver package.

You can see that dkms complains about their being no headers, for the running kernel etc.

Running a full upgrade first would have resolved this.

devuan_dk_fan wrote:
# apt-get install linux-image-$(uname -r|sed 's,[^-]*-[^-]*-,,') linux-headers-$(uname -r|sed 's,[^-]*-[^-]*-,,') broadcom-sta-dkms
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  broadcom-sta-dkms cpp-4.8 dkms gcc gcc-4.8 gcc-4.9 libasan0 libasan1 libatomic1 libcilkrts5 libgcc-4.8-dev libgcc-4.9-dev libitm1 liblsan0
  libtsan0 libubsan0 linux-compiler-gcc-4.8-x86 linux-headers-3.16.0-5-amd64 linux-headers-3.16.0-5-common linux-headers-amd64
  linux-image-3.16.0-5-amd64 linux-image-amd64 linux-kbuild-3.16 make


Loading new broadcom-sta- DKMS files...
First Installation: checking all kernels...
Building for 3.16.0-4-amd64 and 3.16.0-5-amd64
Module build for the currently running kernel was skipped since the
kernel source for this kernel does not seem to be installed.
Building initial module for 3.16.0-5-amd64

Running module version sanity check.
 - Original module
   - No original module exists within this kernel
 - Installation
   - Installing to /lib/modules/3.16.0-5-amd64/updates/dkms/


Backing up initrd.img-3.16.0-5-amd64 to /boot/initrd.img-3.16.0-5-amd64.old-dkms
Making new initrd.img-3.16.0-5-amd64
(If next boot fails, revert to initrd.img-3.16.0-5-amd64.old-dkms image)

DKMS: install completed.

#5 Re: Off-topic » Getting to know you » 2018-02-01 21:14:43

Oh I'm not upset.  You're just getting your knickers in a twist over some free OS and a Linux forum.

#6 Re: Off-topic » Getting to know you » 2018-02-01 08:40:31

Now that's what I call getting one's knickers in a twist...

#7 Re: Forum Feedback » Crossing the line or not? » 2018-01-30 09:51:10

I tend not to waste time and energy on such people.  If forum admins want to practice selective justice, there's really not much you can do about it [except vote with your feet]...

#8 Re: Forum Feedback » Crossing the line or not? » 2018-01-29 21:45:14

golinux wrote:

Good to hear.  Holding on to resentment and anger is so not a good thing.  smile

Hehe... you're right, but there was never any resentment and anger in the first place (as you well know).

#9 Re: Devuan » Discussion About - Software should be came by Default » 2018-01-29 21:30:50

inukaze wrote:
cynwulf wrote:

Nonsense.  Slackware still uses lilo, it's tried and tested software (like sysvinit).

i try LILO first on my main pc, and a few days ago i try with a netbook knows "Canaimita" model "a101a3" here on venezuela, and in none of this machines LILO works. never boots from menu entry for me.

User error / "Finger trouble" / PEBCAK / whatever...  You said you're not using UEFI, therefore I can't see why LILO doesn't work, considering that you must be using a DOS MBR...

inukaze wrote:

My main pc nevers mantain for example "/dev/sda1" every time i reboot that change to "/dev/sdb1" or "/dev/sdc1" because of that i prefer use UUID.

Well you don't prefer it - systemd/udev pretty much determines you use it.  Though in general terms unless you're swapping out disk drives regularly, I can't see why your device nodes are being swapped around so much.

You can also use UUIDs with LILO by the way (lilo.conf(5)).  This is specified in the root= stanza.  Of course it means you doing a little bit more work, reading some man pages and learning new stuff, instead of some bloated "automagic" code doing it all for you.

#10 Re: Installation » Devuan minimal install with Trinity (TDE). Login goes black & returns » 2018-01-29 12:16:37

devuan_dk_fan wrote:

Thanks for the quick replies. The problem as mentioned, pre-existed the install of the binary blob. I didn't have anything X installed before I installed the tde-trinity package, which should have pulled in everything necessary (and worked fine for my laptop). I compiled the blob using the script that I downloaded from the Nvidia site. The script requires among other things gcc, make, linux-headers, etc. so it must compile something.

What is compiled is essentially "wrappers" and some "glue".  It's a binary driver.  Nvidia do not release specs to free software developers, let alone source code.  A kernel module is built for the target kernel, but that's a bit of a red herring - it's pretty much all binary.

#11 Re: Devuan » Discussion About - Software should be came by Default » 2018-01-29 12:06:18

inukaze wrote:

LILO don't evers works fine with all distribution installation, grub ever works where LILO evers fail.
the size of grub is near 3 MB installed. add just an aditional png of 8 bits (256 colours) non-indexed.

Nonsense.  Slackware still uses lilo, it's tried and tested software (like sysvinit).

inukaze wrote:

The Debian Jessie installer, looks like do something like that, for put the grub background. you can try installing debian jessian on a virtual machine. when the installation is finished, and the machine is restarted the grub have a simple background image, and the is much less than 20MB.

Just two of the numerous dependencies: - Installed size: 16,038.0 kB - Installed size: 2,910.0 kB

So where exactly does your "3MB" come from?

LILO: - Installed size: 693.0 kB

syslinux: - Installed size: 299.0 kB

(and nowhere near the complexity)

A basic lilo configuration can be nothing more than:



Compare that to the numerous grub configs.

But LILO (ELILO) is no longer maintained, mainly because too many Linux distributions prefer the complex idiocy of grub...

Where LILO epitomises simplicity and the KISS principles (UNIX philosophy) - grub is one of the best examples of complexity, bloat and feature creep I've ever seen.  It's garbage, yet everyone is using it...

#12 Re: Forum Feedback » Crossing the line or not? » 2018-01-29 10:03:35

golinux wrote:

It is rather insulting that you would question the veracity of a copy/paste.  I am truthful to a fault and have spent most of my life striving to eliminate 'filters' that warp perceptions.

No offence was intended, I'm just pointing out that if transparency and accountability is desired, then it's best not to cloud things.  Otherwise you may as well hit the ban button and not bother yourself with explaining why or keeping an "evidence bag".

golinux wrote:

You should see what went on over at DUF in its early days.  Complete anarchy.  DUF rose from the exodus of many veteran Debian users years ago after cynwulf himself was banned/suspended.  Still a bit of a sore spot, I think.

As number 9 of the top 10 posters, you should know.

That last statement of yours is untrue.

I've made my views on this clear by now, so at this stage I'll call it a day.

#13 Re: Installation » Devuan minimal install with Trinity (TDE). Login goes black & returns » 2018-01-29 00:50:46

You can't actually compile the driver - it's a binary blob.

You may need to purge the packaged version of the driver and install a newer version from the vendor.  As it's an nvidia binary blob, your best bet is to head to their official forums and search/ask there.

#14 Re: Devuan » Discussion About - Software should be came by Default » 2018-01-29 00:40:17

inukaze wrote:

for the applet manage the connections. another thing i think during the installation process, when the file /etc/default/grub copy or created/generated. should ask if put maximum detected resolution or select resolution for a list to set the follow variables for example


and put "Devuan" in the menuentry, like "EXE GNU/Linux" says "Devuan" on Grub menuentries. in this case my monitor supports 1440x900@60Hz, but i don't like that resolution because from 2004 i ever uses Linux distributions and GNU/Linux distributions more for use videogames.

Sounds like stuff you could just configure yourself, according to your personal preferences/hardware...?

Bear in mind that there are other bootloaders, such as lilo - i.e. a simple bootloader of about 600kB (most of which is in fact bitmaps and man pages) which installs and loads entirely from the DOS mbr, not over 20MB of fancy, self indulgent, complex crap.  So it doesn't seem to make much sense to invest so much in customising one particular bootloader to a particular subset of hardware which might break things for certain users.

Amazingly the BSDs managed to come up with simple EFI bootloaders once there was a need for that, but still Linux distributions are still pushing this same "kitchen sink" solution (sound familiar?).

#15 Re: Forum Feedback » Crossing the line or not? » 2018-01-29 00:04:13

Not at all, in messageboard terms "ban" or "suspension" is only a matter of terminology.  If you ban/suspend someone's account for a given period or permanently, you're censoring their ability to represent themselves.  The time span is irrelevant.

The membership are provided with a link to a text file, not the original thread in original form and the author cannot respond in thread, in semi-realtime.  It doesn't really help matters.

I have to say that I think you've slightly overreacted this time.

But also, I don't think fungus should hold it against you or turn this into such a, puerile, personal battle.  It's easy to push forum staff's buttons, there's no real reward or sense of achievement in getting yourself banned.

For the casual observer, it might be useful to have fungus' complaint summarised by an uninterested (third) party...  (aka "what the feck is actually going on here?").

#16 Re: Forum Feedback » Crossing the line or not? » 2018-01-28 23:27:38

You're being slightly 'diplomatic' there to say the least.

A ban can be permanent or for days/weeks/months/years - it's purely a matter of nomenclature...  a ban is a ban regardless of the term imposed, be it a day or a lifetime.  You can call it a "suspension" if you like.  In the same way that a permanent ban could be termed an "indefinite suspension".

#17 Re: Forum Feedback » Crossing the line or not? » 2018-01-28 22:02:42

I'm somewhat surprised that you've banned fungus.  I have to make it clear here that I strongly object to a ban based on what has been posted by this user.

Let us consider history, let us consider how systemd was shoehorned into Debian.  Opposing viewpoints were dismissed and ridiculed.  Crap software is now a part of the mainstream Linux ecosystem, that slightly perturbs me yes, but in the grand scheme of things, I can't do a much about it.  The Devuan project was begun as an opposition to that at least - because a minority know that a tried and trusted init system, that simplicity in general is the best way and always has been.

Spikey haired 20-somethings who have been bought and sold over and over by the Red Hats, IBMs, Oracles, Alphabets, HPs, Intels, etc of this world don't know better than the "founders" of free software as we know it.  The difference is that the founders knew exactly what they were doing, the latest batch have all the intelligence and more, but less than 50% of the wisdom.  Many of which are on the payroll of said corporations and thus pushing a purely corporate agenda.

If fungus is wrong, so be it, or misguided...?  People are often "wrong on the internet".  But lets not fall back into the rut of the petty censorship we saw at the FDN site...  That forum became as worthless as the Debian project always thought it to be.

If fungus is saying things you don't agree with, then what's the problem?  Let him get on with it.

Another worthless Linux distro fanboi forum is not going to provide much benefit to anyone.  There are a plethora of such forums.  Let a Devuan forum play to it's strengths and strike out in a wholly different direction.

We started DUF because we wanted something different.  People still want DUF to survive.  The hosting chugs on regardless, because there are a few people - even one person - who wants it to exist.  Against all odds, it's still there, hanging on 7 years later - that says a lot.  Think about it.

fungus, at you will not be subject to censorship - though neither is anyone else.  Feel free... wink

#19 Re: Installation » pkgmaster is repository hell » 2018-01-27 18:55:58

fungus wrote:

Cynwulf, I don't disagree with much of what you say, but there has been evidence on systemd being a little more than just not "as functional as it claims", or becoming a monolyth mediator between linux and all other software.  It  is about security.  And that becomes automatically political, whether it relates to user and big corporations or the user and the state.

If it's about security, then don't use it.  If you don't trust the software or the developers, you look elsewhere, it's that simple (and no security is not "automatically political").

NSA or whoever, don't need crap like systemd, they have backdoors in all major OS, there are exploits, hidden for decades in common software and even in the silicon itself.  A specific backdoor in a specific "init system" (thingie) for a specific OS and only a subset of distributions at that, is not that useful.

One could say that systemd is "just business"....  makes a lot more sense than the alternative conspiracy shit.  And that's my take on systemd, always has been  - it's a business move for Red Hat Inc.

When you have the likes of Intel and AMD building in the IME/PSP to all new chips, security on x86 becomes nothing more than a token thing ( and as most should know from recent revelations at least, security was never a focus there anyway (never mind that numerous experts warned about it's general crappiness over a decade ago).

"Security" in most fields of computing can in fact be complete and utter bullshit.  Looks at Windows AV software.  You don't need to make something secure, you just have to convince enough people that 'retroactive security' is viable, get them to open the wallets and bend minds accordingly...

My point is, that if you don't like this Linux distribution or how it's developed, then you have a choice.

#20 Re: Installation » pkgmaster is repository hell » 2018-01-26 21:37:40

golinux wrote:

Oh dear...

Some people should at least stick to software ideologies.

As you know, I'm not a Devuan user (or a Debian or Linux user) and you've known my opinions on this project from day one (so once again, thank you for tolerating my continued presence), but any project founded on "anti" sentiment is pretty much doomed from the start.  This forum seems to be keeping it technical, it's getting it right thus far, it surprises me that such crap is being posted on the mailing lists...

Political and ideological opinions mean absolutely nothing in the world of software development.  The person who made your morning coffee could be racist, xenophobic and homophobic - it's in their head and there's actually fuck all you can do about it.  Hans Reiser killed his wife, so some people don't use his FS.  You have no idea about the beliefs of the rest of the developers of any given FOSS code / OS - however extreme they may be (my personal worry has always been that there may be a few Elton John fans in the mix, sneaking references into the code here and there...).

You'll also find that more than 50% of Linux fans are clueless when it comes to the origins of free software, the ideology of FSF/RMS and the permissive approach as pioneered by UC Berkeley.  They will rant and foam at the mouth at having one piece of Poettering crap installed, while not necessarily knowing where the rest of the software comes from, whether it's "good code", who developed it and to what end.

The birth of systemd has all come about on RMS' watch.  It's yet more shite, which sets out to emulate "what Apple are doing" or "what MS are doing".  The Linux foundation sold out to fortune 500 companies years ago, every bit of work done there is at the behest of IBM, Alphabet, HP, Oracle, et al and now even MS have joined in the gang bang.

Red Hat developed systemd, because they're in the business of enterprise support and what better way to secure that business model than to create that which has to be supported from scratch?  MS made a business out of this for decades as have others, it's nothing new.

Distributions adopted it, because those pushing it gained sufficient "mind share".  Amazingly developers, supposedly smart people, were convinced that a large mass of complex and poorly written code is the answer to everything.  Because it's so widely accepted, the fallacy of popularity comes into play.  systemd "works".  I have to use MS Windows for a living and I can assure you that "it works".  But systemd works for those that want the functionality it provides.  People are fickle and it's easy to cater for laziness or inability and a need for convenience.  At a certain point when those are in abundance, code correctness, simplicity, robustness - and above all security goes out the window - mainly because it's making somebody somewhere's life (job) a lot easier (for now).

In a distance future the cycle will begin anew and the replacement for systemd/Linux will be born, as GNU and Linux were.

GPL's code can't be just closed off and re-purposed, RMS put a lot of time and energy into that, but it's developers can be bought off, put on the payroll or just convinced and that's what has happened - over the last two decades.  The developers can also write bad code, code which doesn't follow "UNIX Philosophy", isn't POSIX compliant, mainly because someone will convince someone else that all of that has gone out of fashion.

But when all is said and done, software development is about doing...  whining on a mailing list won't achieve anything good.  Personally if I didn't like an OS and if I had the choice, I would just stop using it.  As someone once said: "shut up and hack".

BSD, GNU, Linux and other FOSS projects used to all about "by hackers for hackers" - for Linux and associated projects, all of that is past.  The gulf between the developer and the user has widened to the extent that, to Linux users, contacting a developer is unthinkable (and in certain cases - not possible).

There is a huge difference however in *BSD land.  For example, I had a short but interesting exchange with a well known developer (of OpenBSD) some years ago while (unsuccessfully) trying to resolve a device driver problem.  It was an enlightening experience.

In *BSD land emailing the developer is the norm, conversing with developers on the mailing lists is the norm.  Doing it yourself is the norm.

In Linux land, complaining and whining and posting "me too" against every bug report is the norm.  Complaining that Linux distro abc doesn't do what you want it to do is the norm, complaining that Linux distro x is not the same as Linux distro y is the norm.  In fact posting all manner of noise and very little signal is now, very much, the norm.

#21 Re: Installation » pkgmaster is repository hell » 2018-01-26 15:48:26

fungus wrote:

I want nothing to do with DNG premadonas and their tolerance to neonazis and intolerance to those who tried to block neonazi propaganda and got the boot from the list!!!!   REMEMBER!  We do not forget we don't forgive, easily!

Links or it didn't happen.

#22 Re: Off-topic » What's the point to keep maintaining DEVUAN? » 2018-01-21 15:02:35

spartrekus.git wrote:


I see not really a point to keep DEVUAN being maintained.[etc] Wayland, SystemD, Pulseaudio, ... is the future !   
Another Unix BSD user.

Great trolling!

#23 Re: Installation » Downgrading Ascii back to Jessie » 2018-01-11 21:09:14

The only way to downgrade is to strip back to a bare system and run an upgrade specifying the release you want to "upgrade", gthen painstakingly go through downgrading individuals and removing problem packages.  apt will warn you that packages are to be downgraded (I've done it successfully, but that was back in the days of Debian etch, lenny and squeeze).  It's rarely worth the effort however and better to just reinstall.

#24 Re: Other Issues » ATK bridge not found [SOLVED] » 2018-01-11 20:59:39

Maybe missing dbus "plumbing"...  probably an error you can safely ignore?  (as with most of the crap gtk spits out)

You could try installing "libatk-adaptor" (the only other relevant binary built from that source package) and see if that "silences" it...

#25 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] startx fails since upgrade to 4.9 kernel » 2018-01-11 16:32:13

00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation Device 1918 (rev 07)

Apparently this is a 'skylake' chip.  Stable support was added in the 4.2 kernel.  However from a few duckduckgo searches, it's been problematic.

Blacklisting of kernel mode setting drivers is less likely to work these days.

To boot with kernel mode setting disabled append nomodeset to the kernel command line (i915.modeset=0 also works).  This can be made permanent via bootloader config.

The 3.16 kernel didn't support your hardware, so was likely loading the vesa driver.  Disabling KMS on the 4.9 kernel and NOT explicitly loading the intel driver via any xorg  configuration files, should yield the same result on the 4.9 kernel (the vesa driver being used).  But surely just using vesa is not you end objective...?

You could just build a stable or mainline kernel, boot, startx leaving auto configured (no xorg config), cross your fingers and see what happens.

But mesa/drm and especially xorg (in particular xf86-video-intel) may all benefit from an upgrade.  Simply put - the jessie release is probably too old for your hardware.  It might be best for you to install the testing distribution.  If the 4.9 kernel yields the same results there, building a newer kernel for that toolchain will be more worthwhile than building one for what you have now.

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