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#1 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2020-01-12 01:43:03

Maybe the initrd complains about the missing firmware and after switching to the real root the module is found and so loaded when needed?

#2 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2020-01-09 04:16:33

GNUser wrote:

By virtue of not being Linux, OpenBSD (as-is) does not suffer from linuxland woes.

How long?
And what about the other BSDs?
In "The Tragedy of systemd" a FreeBSD member praises what systemd all does right and mentions experiments in FreeBSD to implement systemd like stuff that already have taken place but are fruitless up to now. I expect that to only be a delay instead of an end of such ideas in FreeBSD.

OpenBSD may resist a bit, byte or even longer. Never underestimate an angry Theo!   \o/

GNUser wrote:

By virtue of not being Linux, OpenBSD (as-is) does not suffer from linuxland woes.

How long?
What if the big players in the dimension userland start to insist that the systemd kernel extensions have to be present? Pulling systemd related implants from lots of ridiculously huge applications will converge to impossible because of the lacking woman power.

Optimism is caused by the lack of information.

#3 Re: Devuan » Debian has fallen. What now? » 2019-12-30 16:57:35

GPL ... HELP!!! Someone could use my code! Lets jail it for it's own security!
BSD ... Someone uses my code! YAYYYYYY! \o/

#4 Re: Devuan » Debian has fallen. What now? » 2019-12-30 16:56:02

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

But the BSDs have an evil licence that allows corporations to steal the code and not feed back their improvements.

If MS couldn't have used BSD's TCP stack for their 1st IP support, we'd have 2 only 82.783% compatible internets now.
Did that hurt BSD?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

One of the reasons why Linux has been so successful is because companies are forced to make their development available to all.

I heavily doubt this.

#5 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2019-12-28 14:46:50

aut0exec wrote:

Didn't go as badly as thought but not as promising either. :-/

This result's "we support exploring alternatives" suffix will not fruit.
This result will make some overly optimistic and/or inert users stay with Debian instead of looking for an alternative.

More is lost than gained with this wishy-washy result.

Let's just face reality: Debian is "systemd only" now.

Let's use a new thread for brainstorming forward.

#6 Devuan » Debian has fallen. What now? » 2019-12-28 14:44:13

Replies: 23

Topic lines need to be drastic...

Fighting Debian windmills from now to eternity does not look like a bright future.

Should Devuan switch to a different foundation now?

There are some distributions with a less bureaucratic packaging system which could be easier managed by a smaller group of developers. Some of them are currently only available as rolling releases but plugging in there for chiselling a stable branch with only changing stuff between the releases if security issues demand it could be a way to go.

Are there other ideas how Devuan could/should react?

Brainstorm on!

#7 Re: Other Issues » [SOLVED] Apt-get show one package per line? » 2019-12-17 06:09:02

Output formatting would need to shorten filenames to useless fragments or would need ridiculously long lines terminals which will hurt reading a lot if line lengths raise noticeably above 100 characters:

$ apt-cache pkgnames | awk '{ print length,$0 }' | sort -n | tail
53 ruby-rails-assets-markdown-it--markdown-it-for-inline
54 libmono-system-windows-forms-datavisualization4.0a-cil
55 libmoosex-traitfor-meta-class-betteranonclassnames-perl
55 libperl-critic-policy-variables-prohibitlooponhash-perl
56 libcatalyst-authentication-credential-authen-simple-perl
56 libcatalyst-plugin-authentication-credential-openid-perl
58 node-babel-plugin-transform-es3-member-expression-literals
59 libmono-system-runtime-serialization-formatters-soap4.0-cil
60 librust-wasm-bindgen+xxx-debug-only-print-generated-code-dev
60 node-babel-helper-builder-binary-assignment-operator-visitor

If the filenames may be on one line like in apt-cache policynode-babel-helper-builder-binary-assignment-operator-visitor , it may be somewhat readable:

$ apt-cache policy node-babel-helper-builder-binary-assignment-operator-visitor
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 6.26.0+dfsg-3
  Version table:
     6.26.0+dfsg-3 500
        500 beowulf/main armhf Packages

Simple post processing of apt-get upgrade's output from ^The following packages will be upgraded:$ to the end of the indented block following it would be no big deal. Maybe just throwing it as one line at apt-get policy $THAT_LINE would give a lot of version information, but sometimes more than one "candidate" for a package will show up and how do we know which one apt-get will choose?

Post processing a dry run of the upgrade process may be a way?

I currently have no deb-ish system with updates waiting to be installed, so no easy way to look at a dry run's output. :-(

#8 Re: Off-topic » This should be fun... » 2019-12-13 04:29:37

Have a look at how FreedomBox handles this:

Maybe publishing a list with open problems that itself is a bit less verbose already would be good enough for Devuan?

#9 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2019-12-12 08:41:13

If I can save some old hardware from being trash by using some blobs that upset the FSF, I will happily do it. I prefer environmental decisions over RMS's happiness there. So extreme anti-blob distributions cannot be my way.

#11 Re: ARM Builds » Is any work planned for devuan on the raspberry pi 4? » 2019-12-09 05:16:32

freemedia2018 wrote:

i would also be very surprised if debian didnt support raspberry pi 4 but devuan did. so, im assuming that debian either does, or will soon.

Debian will... if I remember a not sooo old talk by GWolf correctly...

#12 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2019-12-09 05:12:20

ToxicExMachina wrote:

It's not a good time for switching to non-linux OS. The greatest libre software environment need concentrated support of every user - not escape to weak freedom. It's better to prepare to fork Linux. I sure a lot of significant developers will support the fork.

There is no "one size fits all"!
And diversity is a good thing!
And the BSDs sure are an alternative and the BSD license is even more freedom than the dimension GPL gives.

Please tell what you do and why but don't tell others what to do or not to do.


#13 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2019-12-09 01:12:21

If Debian as base of Devuan falls off...

Let's hope Devuan has/finds a way but having some [plan b]s helps to stay calm in the rough sea.

I prefer an OS, I can use on the majority of my systems, so standard PCs and lots of ARM board flavours need to be supported. I can avoid to buy too exotic ARMish ones in the future, but Pi1..3 and some Allwinner based boards are here now and I definitely want the same flavour of OS on them (and in the future on RiscV) as on the PCs.

The release strategy...

For playing around, an additional De??an cut would be nice and I'd use it on the just for fun systems, but with stable+security(+backports), I just add what I additionally need to "/opt" and am happy. This mostly is stuff directly from the Git repos of some projects, so packaging it every few days would be plainly silly.

I just don't want an only rolling release based system. For some long running projects daily changing tools and libs are catastrophic but if security dictates, some updates must be tolerated. Fore me De??ian just fits this stable+security(+backports) scheme.

ChuangTzu wrote:

Well, before completely jumping the Linux ship....there is Slackware (or SalixOS)which has remained true to *nix standards while everyone else forked off.

Good old Slackware. I haven't looked at it for years... maybe even dramatic more than a dozen... I should play a bit with it again in VMs.

Voidlinux looks nice. Unluckily only a rolling release. If enough migrants from De??an gather around it, making a spinoff in a stable+security flavor could be a plan-b too.

But still my plan-a is using Devuan! Let the other ideas be emergency exits for a case we hope never to occur.

#14 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2019-12-07 19:21:36

My last frequently used Debian will be at least frozen when systemd-home wants to touch my disks and then it shall be migrated without hurry. I wanted to do this already for a longer time but laziness is soooo energy efficient... *sigh*

Systemd-home will be the last drop needed to get in motion with this one.
Systemd-home as motivation booster?  \o/
Who would have thought of that?  o:-Þ

#15 Re: DIY » No dbus and compiling FF » 2019-11-27 12:15:50

anticapitalista wrote:

2 people refusing to use capital letters in one thread...

Was that a capital "2" in your sentence?

Ok, and back to serious ... dear mods ... please chop this case discussion off and beam it into the offtopic section.


#16 Re: News & Announcements » ASCII 2.1 point release » 2019-11-25 20:47:46

(yeti@devuan2-amd64:3)~$ lsb_release -sir

...just regularily updated ... no reinstall since 2.0 days...

#17 Re: DIY » KISS: a new systemd-free distribution that aims to "keep it simple" » 2019-11-25 17:59:14

golinux wrote:
yeti wrote:

And abolishing source distributions would stop global warming within months!

bitcoins are the real energy hogs.

Only quoting that line without the one straight after it is not a fair move.

#18 Re: DIY » KISS: a new systemd-free distribution that aims to "keep it simple" » 2019-11-24 12:09:21

HevyDevy wrote:

Thanks for sharing....I would need some better hardware to be able to give kiss linux a try, maybe oneday when i can afford a 24 core thread ripper a few RTX2080t'si and shiteloads of ram wink

at the moment im stuck with an old intel celeron quad core machine with 1.5 ghz with a whopping 1 thread per core.

Compiling everything from source yields a QA problem for the maintainers.
Distributions based on delivering the same binaries to everyone are more maintainable.
And abolishing source distributions would stop global warming within months!
Ok... not really... but we should ask whether we really need them...
Do usefull things with your CPUs and for most of us that does not include compiling every binary on your harddisk yourself.

#19 Re: Off-topic » disable touchpad without disabling trackpoint [SOLVED] » 2019-11-19 17:58:48

On T510 I use Fn-F8 to dispable (or re-enable) the touchpad and the trackpin stays active.

#20 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Choosing an email client » 2019-10-27 16:03:27

Ron wrote:

Another option is Interlink Mail & News:


Reasonably modern 64bit Linux Distribution (32bit is NOT and will never be supported)

I will not use use software that discriminates 32bit architectures.
But since Debian6 days or even earlier I'm happy enough (the keyboard shortcuts should be better) with Evolution and so I just can forget it.

#21 Re: News & Announcements » ASCII 2.1 point release » 2019-10-22 13:54:41

kuleszdl wrote:

Do you know if something has changed or is planned to be changed about the way how the embedded images are made (especially w.r.t. to using unpackaged kernels and bootloaders)?

Yes... pleaaaase... #ARM_kernels_matter :-D

#22 Re: Other Issues » When Beowulf will become a stable? » 2019-10-22 08:59:19

ldkuj wrote:

It's almost a year between releases of Debian 9 and ASCII. Is it a same case will be with Beowulf and is it become a stable in summer of 2020?
How progress is far in this direction?

yoga-smiley-emoticon.gif . o O ( Beowulf will commmMMMmmmMMMmmmMMMmmme... )

#23 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2019-10-04 22:05:05

In Linux's toddler days we had halt, reboot and shutdown logins with these commands as shell.

#24 Re: Devuan » Debian considering going systemd init only » 2019-09-24 05:44:02

ToxicExMachina wrote:

The real problem is inevitable death of Debian in case of keeping SystemD.

Then let's welcome the billions of Debian migrants coming to Devuan!

#25 Re: Other Issues » .cache folder in root » 2019-09-20 07:41:48

I see "/.cache"...
...not on devuan1/amd64.
...not on devuan1/i386.
...on devuan2/amd64.
...on devuan2/i386.
...on devuan3/amd64.
...on devuan3/i386.
...not on devuan3/armel(pi1).
...not on devuan3/armhf(pi2).
...not on devuan3/arm64(pi3).
...on devuan3/armhf(cubie3).
...on devuan-ceres/amd64.
...on devuan-ceres/i386.
...on debian10/amd64.
...not on raspbian10/armhf.

The beowulf systems may have inherited by being upgraded from ascii and my debian10 was upgraded from debian9, so "/.cache" may be a relict too. My Cubies started their existence as debian9 and were "transgraded" to ascii and later upgraded to beowulf. Maybe the devuan-PIs simpy don't have it because X11 never was installed? I think my raspbian10-PIs haven't seen X11 too. The devuan1-systems run XFCE like most other systems and don't have "it".

Currently I don't see a pattern...

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