Seriously?

okkvltisch · 2023-11-26 10:58:55

Just did an update like normal on Excalibur/Ceres on my main desktop (5950X, 7900XTX) and this round of updates wants to remove Network-Manager?????

Ran the update just to see what would happen and confirmed I didn't have internet afterwards.

No worries as I rolled back via Timeshift, just just genuinely curious as to why the the ball was just dropped so hard here... Like I understand this is basically Debian Testing and things happen, but internet access just being removed????

Nobody here is required to answer, just wondering why this low of a low has been reached when the bar itself is already so low for this project.

Thanks...

Last edited by okkvltisch (2023-11-26 11:00:11)

steve_v · 2023-11-26 12:11:13

okkvltisch wrote:

this is basically Debian Testing

And right there in the name is it's intended purpose - testing. If you want to run it as a daily driver that's up to you, but sooner or later you will encounter bugs, the productive response to which is filing a bug report.

okkvltisch wrote:

internet access just being removed????

Since when is networkmanager == "internet access"?
There are plenty of other ways to configure networking, and networkmanager is not even remotely a critical package.

If this occured in a stable release it might be problematic, but you should be comfortable with manual network setup (among other troubleshooting / testing tasks) if you're going to run testing or unstable.

Last edited by steve_v (2023-11-26 12:11:37)

isabena · 2023-11-26 13:40:40

Excalibur = TESTING
Ceres = UNSTABLE

that issue is wellknown to debian-sid and also to siduction
and I guess those "problems" are normal when running these variants of an OS

golinux · 2023-11-26 16:42:53

okkvltisch wrote:

Just did an update like normal on Excalibur/Ceres on my main desktop . . .

Please note that Excalibur is "testing" while Ceres is "unstable" so breakage is to be expected . . .

Please review Devuan releases.

fsmithred · 2023-11-26 18:23:36

Seriously,, we got to the fifth post and nobody has yet asked why network-manager got removed?

I'll ask the OP. Why did network-manager get removed? Were there any hints or clues in the output? What is different or non-standard about your install?

FWIW, I just finished upgrading my ceres about five minutes ago, and network-manager and network-manager-gnome are still installed. This is a standard devuan desktop install with xfce, i386, no customizations.

aluma · 2023-11-26 18:41:25

Do you want to laugh?
I just clicked “Magk All Upgrades” in the synaptic and this is what I saw

This is Daedalus 5.0

boughtonp · 2023-11-26 19:23:21

fsmithred wrote:

we got to the fifth post and nobody has yet asked why network-manager got removed?

If the first post had been an attempt at a bug report, I'm sure more would have been done to encourage diagnosis and sending of the relevant information to bugs.devuan.org

But since it was essentially just a rant just about dropped balls and low bars, I'd say the responses were just right.

-

Anyhow, if I cared about network-manager, I might be asking if it's relevant that Excalibur appears to be on 1.44.2-5 when Trixie is still on 1.44.2-3

Also, if I saw unexpected changes to my system, I'd make sure to copy text-based output of relevant commands, which - for anything package-related - would include a confirmation of active repositories...

*shrug*

Last edited by boughtonp (2023-11-26 19:24:19)

mknoop · 2023-11-26 21:05:27

When I would run apt-get update I kept getting network-manager and libnm0 kept back. When I tried apt-get dist-upgrade all it wanted to do was remove over 30 packages.

After getting network-manager and libnm0 kept back for days, I got sick of waiting for a fix to come through. I experimented and got this to work:

sudo apt-get install --reinstall libnm0

This upgraded libnm0, network-manager and removed some other package I did not recognize.

Everything has been fine since then.

fsmithred · 2023-11-27 01:30:23

@aluma

What do you get if you run this?

apt policy network-manager network-manager-gnome network-manager-tde

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher · 2023-11-27 02:14:58

One thing that I learned many years ago when running unstable...

Look at the terminal output before agreeing to an upgrade. If it's going to remove something that you consider detrimental to your system, tell it n (no). You can then upgrade the other packages individually that aren't part of the packages that will/would be removed.

Under normal circumstances, it will be fixed within a few days. Other times, it may take a week or two. I remember one time...not that my memory is that good any longer...but I remember one time...I probably went nearly two or three months before the package was fixed and able to be upgraded.

During that time, I upgraded all of the other stuff individually.

However, I was still frisky back then. I've gotten older and cantankerous and just want a stable system now.

aluma · 2023-11-27 04:13:39

@fsmithred

   root@aa:/# apt policy network-manager network-manager-gnome network-manager-tde
network-manager:
  Installed: 1.44.2-3devuan1
  Candidate: 1.44.2-5devuan1
  Version table:
     1.44.2-5devuan1 500
        500 http://packages.devuan.org/devuan unstable/main amd64 Packages
 *** 1.44.2-3devuan1 100
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
     1.42.4-1devuan1 500
        500 http://deb.devuan.org/merged daedalus/main amd64 Packages
network-manager-gnome:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 1.30.0-2
  Version table:
     1.30.0-2 500
        500 http://deb.devuan.org/merged daedalus/main amd64 Packages
network-manager-tde:
  Installed: 4:14.1.1-0debian12.0.0+0
  Candidate: 4:14.1.2~pre3-0debian12.0.0+1
  Version table:
     4:14.1.2~pre3-0debian12.0.0+1 500
        500 http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/deb/trinity-sb daedalus/main-r14 amd64 Packages
 *** 4:14.1.1-0debian12.0.0+0 500
        500 http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/deb/trinity-r14.1.x daedalus/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
root@aa:/#

Need to say.
This happened on an experimental computer.
On the other, where all sorts of extra packets do not fall, everything is fine.

Regards.

steve_v · 2023-11-27 09:21:24

boughtonp wrote:

fsmithred wrote:
we got to the fifth post and nobody has yet asked why network-manager got removed?
If the first post had been an attempt at a bug report, I'm sure more would have been done to encourage diagnosis and sending of the relevant information to bugs.devuan.org
But since it was essentially just a rant just about dropped balls and low bars, I'd say the responses were just right.

Indeed.
Had the OP phrased the post as a bug report or request for help, help they likely would have received. Whining about how terrible the distro is because an update on unstable "Removed internet access" gets... Some ROFL at best.

I'll tolerate plenty of complains if a routine update to a stable release causes borkage (particularly if the post includes technical details, as opposed to "$gui_thing got broke because I didn't read apt output"), hell, sometimes I'll even join in...
But unstable and testing are subject to this kind of dependency screwyness at any time, and that's kinda the point of having unstable and testing branches to begin with.

i.e.

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher wrote:

One thing that I learned many years ago when running unstable...
Look at the terminal output before agreeing to an upgrade. If it's going to remove something that you consider detrimental to your system, tell it n (no). You can then upgrade the other packages individually that aren't part of the packages that will/would be removed.
Under normal circumstances, it will be fixed within a few days. Other times, it may take a week or two.

This^ The answer is: fix it yourself (and/or file a bug report), or wait.

fsmithred · 2023-11-27 09:39:13

aluma wrote:

@fsmithred
Need to say.
This happened on an experimental computer.
On the other, where all sorts of extra packets do not fall, everything is fine.
Regards.

Yeah, mixing stable and unstable is a recipe for problems. A better choice is to mix testing and unstable, and in either case, setting unstable to a lower priority would let you be more selective about which packages come from unstable.

nixer · 2023-11-27 12:12:17

The answer is: fix it yourself (and/or file a bug report), or wait.

In my humble opinion, this should be promoted as the expected outcome for anyone wishing to venture into the testing/unstable waters.

Example: A few days ago an update of nfs-common broke my ability to mount nfs shares. I waited and no fix has showed up, yet, and I can find no bug report that addresses this. So, I uninstalled and then reinstalled from excalibur repos. Then I held the package to current level. I wish I knew enough to file a helpful bug report, so instead, I will continue waiting. In the meantime, my ceres is now fully functional, again.
If this is not something that excites you, then it would be rough sailing to jump into these waters.

dzz · 2023-11-27 12:29:11

No bug here, we just needed to watch the warnings and wait. Network-manager depends on libnm0 of the same version .. libnm0 was to be upgraded to 1.44.2-5 (at 23-11-22) but it seems network-manager 1.44.2-5 wasn't available till shortly afterwards. From my log:

The following packages will be REMOVED:
  network-manager network-manager-gnome

#SNIP

Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

Last edited by dzz (2023-11-27 12:31:33)

aluma · 2023-11-27 14:08:53

In my case the reason was the included repository

  deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/ unstable main

Disabling it solved the problem.
Indeed, the libnm0 version in this repository is newer than the installable version of network-manager.

greenjeans · 2023-11-27 17:51:05

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher wrote:

However, I was still frisky back then. I've gotten older and cantankerous and just want a stable system now.

Lol, you and me both. Been running Devuan 1 for 6.5 years now, lol.

Not long ago had conversation with a guy in the library who was interested in what distro I was running, told him, and he was like OMG why are you running something that old?

me: Because it works

him: omg but there's new stuff

me: don't care, it's not broken so no need to fix it

him: But things will break

me: it's not broken

him: it will be

me: IT'S NOT ******* BROKEN!

LOL! But in all seriousness, 6 and a half years and all machines are still working fine, that's awesome, one of the reasons I love Devuan, never had an update in those years that broke anything, it all just kept humming right along.

Last edited by greenjeans (2023-11-27 17:55:28)

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher · 2023-11-27 18:53:06

aluma wrote:

In my case the reason was the included repository
  deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/ unstable main    
  
Disabling it solved the problem.

Uncle aluma,

Devuan has always recommended...almost insisted...for users to use actual Devuan release names in their sources list instead of the generic names of stable, testing, and unstable.

Last edited by The-Amnesiac-Philosopher (2023-11-27 18:54:10)

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher · 2023-11-27 18:58:54

greenjeans wrote:

it's not broken so no need to fix it

fsmithred · 2023-11-27 19:05:22

Hey Amne! If you look back at the 'apt policy' output I requested, you'll see he did use "daedalus" in sources.list. For unstable, it doesn't matter if you use the codename or not. sid/ceres/unstable is always sid/ceres/unstable. Because it's always changing, it's always the same.

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher · 2023-11-27 19:36:55

Oh...

GlennW · 2023-11-27 22:44:33

100% @nixer

I played in the cooker/cauldron/unstable for years without knowing how to use the bug report system properly (for kde and the kernel...Mandriva, Mageia, pclinuxos ).

But I used the forums a lot at LQ and the host os forums to feel my way.

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#1 2023-11-26 10:58:55

Seriously?

#2 2023-11-26 12:11:13

Re: Seriously?

#3 2023-11-26 13:40:40

Re: Seriously?

#4 2023-11-26 16:42:53

Re: Seriously?

#5 2023-11-26 18:23:36

Re: Seriously?

#6 2023-11-26 18:41:25

Re: Seriously?

#7 2023-11-26 19:23:21

Re: Seriously?

#8 2023-11-26 21:05:27

Re: Seriously?

#9 2023-11-27 01:30:23

Re: Seriously?

#10 2023-11-27 02:14:58

Re: Seriously?

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Re: Seriously?

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Re: Seriously?

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Re: Seriously?

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Re: Seriously?

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Re: Seriously?

#16 2023-11-27 14:08:53

Re: Seriously?

#17 2023-11-27 17:51:05

Re: Seriously?

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Re: Seriously?

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Re: Seriously?

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Re: Seriously?

#22 2023-11-27 22:44:33

Re: Seriously?

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